85 réponses à ce sujet

[Naitaka]

ViSeirA wrote...

Check Giant's Reach description "The warrior's two-handed attacks rip through the air with such power that each generates a shockwave past the point of impact, effectively extending the weapon's reach. This affects basic attacks, Whirlwind, Mighty Blow and Scythe."
There's no reason Sunder is not the same.

Doesn't the fact that they specify that for Giant's Reach and Giant's Reach only means that the other talents only benefit basic attack?

[Sabresandiego]

Naitaka wrote...

ViSeirA wrote...

Check Giant's Reach description "The warrior's two-handed attacks rip through the air with such power that each generates a shockwave past the point of impact, effectively extending the weapon's reach. This affects basic attacks, Whirlwind, Mighty Blow and Scythe."
There's no reason Sunder is not the same.

Doesn't the fact that they specify that for Giant's Reach and Giant's Reach only means that the other talents only benefit basic attack?

If thats the case then sunder is hardly worth a talent point. You telling me that muscle (+25% crit damage) also only effects auto attacks and not active abilities? Destroyer (enemies at 90% damage resistance) also only effects auto attacks? There is no way that these passives only effects auto attacks and not active abilities, because they would not be worth getting if they were designed like that.

[Naitaka]

Sabresandiego wrote...

*snip*
...because they would not be worth getting if they were designed like that.

Hey, don't get me wrong, I want them to work together, but if we go by Origin's example it's quite possible they don't. It's not like there weren't tons of useless abilities in Origin. Just saying that we shouldn't get our hopes up before someone from Bioware give us a clear answer on this.

Modifié par Naitaka, 20 février 2011 - 07:41 .

[ViSeiRa]

Naitaka wrote...

Doesn't the fact that they specify that for Giant's Reach and Giant's Reach only means that the other talents only benefit basic attack?

Maybe... hmm we need feedback on this from Peter 

[Sabresandiego]

Naitaka wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

*snip*
...because they would not be worth getting if they were designed like that.

Hey, don't get me wrong, I want them to work together, but if we go by Origin's example it's quite possible they don't. It's not like there weren't tons of useless abilities in Origin. Just saying that we shouldn't get our hopes up before someone from Bioware give us a clear answer on this.

Yes it would be great to hear from a dev if passive talents like sunder (+10% chance to crit, 50% chance to stagger on crit) work synergistically with active talents like tornado (whirlwind with 100% chance to crit).

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 20 février 2011 - 07:45 .

[Gabriel S.]

Ouch! I think one of my eye's blood vessels just popped...

[Sabresandiego]

Naitaka you have the german demo right? You can test this pretty easy by just using tornado and having sunder. If anyone gets staggered (I'm guessing there is a graphic for it?) then you know that talents work together.

[ViSeiRa]

Tornado is a high level talent... I don't think we can unlock it in the demo, also I don't think he has the demo, he got his hands on the game at TGS.

[isaggelos]

Naitaka wrote...

A friend and I was disccusing CCC and the best way to utilize them in a team of 4. We sort of drafted this on google document and I thought I'd share it everyone with some added color coding. Also, for those of you who are only interested in the conclusion, scroll down to the bottom of the post. I hope you guys enjoy this.
:happy:

Update: feel free to add to the interesting fact list, I'll edit the top post as often as possible.

Causes STAGGER (Warrior Only):

Single Target:

Sword and Shield:
1. Shield Bash (with Pummel):
Requires: Level 6
Activated Ability
100% Chance.

Two-Handed:
2. Sunder:
Requires: Level 4
Passive
50% vs. normal enemies on a critical hit.

Vanguard:
3. Cleave (with Claymore):
Requires: Level 10
Acitvated Ability
40% vs. normal enemies on auto-attack.

Warmonger:
4. Pommel Strike (with Pommel Blow ):
Requires Level 3
Activated Ability
Stun chance: 100% vs. normal enemies
100% Chance against stunned targets.

Area of Effect:

Warmonger:
5.Tremor (with Aftershock)
Requires: Level 9
Activated Ability
40% vs. normal enemies

Causes DISORIENT (Rogue Only):

Single Target:

Archer:
1. Pinning Shot (with Disorienting Shot)
Requires: Level 8
Activated Ability
Pinning chance: 80% vs. normal enemies
100% vs. pinned enemies


Area of Effect:
Sabotage:
2. Fatiguing Fog (with Overpowering Fog)
Requires: Level 13
Activated Ability
100% vs. normal enemies
3. Confusion (with Chaos)
Requires: Level 9
Activated Ability
Confuse chance: 50% vs. normal enemies
100% vs. confused targets

Causes BRITTLE (Mage Only):

Single Target:

Elemental
1. Winter's Grasp (with Winter's Blast):
Requires: Level 6 (Level 10)
Activated Ability
Freeze chance: 100% vs. normal enemies
40% vs. frozen targets (100% with Elemental Mastery)

Primal
2. Petrify (with Desiccate):
Requires: Level 8
Activated Ability
BRITTLE chance: 100% vs. normal enemies

Area of Effect:

Elemental
3. Cone of Cold (with Deep Freeze):
Requires: Level 8 (Level 10)
Activated Ability
Freeze chance: 60% vs. normal enemies
BRITTLE chance: 20% vs. frozen targets (100% with Elemental Mastery)

Exploits STAGGER:

Rogue:

Single Target:

Dual Weapon:
1. Explosive Strike (with Merciless Strike):
Requires: Level 4
Activated Ability
Physical damage: 400% vs STAGGERED targets
2. Lacerate (with Main):
Requires: Level 9
Sustained mode
Bleeding Chance: 100% vs. STAGGERED targets

Mage:

Single Target:

Arcane:
1. Crushing Prison (with Paralyzing Prison):
Requires: Level 10
Activated Ability
Physcial damage: 200% vs. STAGGERED targets
Paralyze chance: 40% vs. normal enemies
Paralyze chance: 100% vs. STAGGERED targets

Area of Effect:

Primal:
2. Chain Lightning (with Chain Reaction):
Requires: Level 6
Activated Ability
Electricity damage: 600% vs. STAGGERED targets
Elemental force: 200% vs. STAGGERED targets

Exploits DISORIENT:

Warrior:

Single Target:

Weapon and Shield:
1. Assault (with Battery)
Requires: Level 9
Activated Ability
Physical damage: 400% vs. DISORIENTED targets on final hit

Area of Effect:

Weapon and Shield:
2. Scatter (with Disperse)
Requires: Level 10
Activated Ability
Physical damage: 300% vs DISORIENTED targets

Mage:

Single Target:

Primal:
1. Stonefist (with Golem's Fist):
Requires: Level 6
Activated Ability
Physical damage: 200% vs. DISORIENTED targets
Physical force: 200% vs. DISORIENTED targets

Spirit:
2. Spirit Bolt (with Spirit Strike):
Requires: Level 6
Activated Ability
Spirit damage: 200% vs. DISORIENTED targets
Elemental force: 200% vs. DISORIENTED targets

Area of Effect:

Spirit:
3. Walking Bomb:
Requires: Level 8 (Level 10)
Activated Ability
Spirit damage: 200% vs. victim If DISORIENTED (200% vs. vs. nearby targets upon explosion if victim is DISORIENTED with Virulent Walking Bomb)
(Physical force: 200% vs. vs. nearby targets upon explosion if victim is DISORIENTED with Virulent Walking Bomb)

Exploits BRITTLE:

Warrior:

Single Target:

Two-Handed:
1. Mighty Blow (with Shattering Blow):
Requires: Level 8
Activated Ability
Physical damage: 300% vs. BRITTLE targets
Physical force: 200% vs. BRITTLE targets

Vanguard:
2. Cleave (with Claymore):
Requires: Level 10
Acitvated Ability
Stun chance: 100% vs. BRITTLE targets

Area of Effect:

Two-Handed:
3. Scythe (with Reaper):
Requires: Level 9
Activated Ability
Physical damage: 200% vs. BRITTLE targets
Physical force: 200% vs BRITTLE targets

Rogue:

Area of Effect:

Archer:
1. Bursting Arrow (with Shattering Arrow):
Requires: Level 9
Activated Ability
Fire damage: 600% vs. BRITTLE targets
Elemental force: 400% vs. BRITTLE targets

2. Archer's Lance (with Punishing Lance):
Requires: level 11
Activated Ability
Physical damage: +9 vs. all BRITTLE targets along path
Physical force: 400% vs. all BRITTLE targets along path

Interesting Facts:

1. Rogue and mage both have 3 skills that cause CCC, warrior has 5.
2. Warrior and mage only have 1 skill that causes AOE CCC, rogue has 2.
3. Warmonger tree for the warrior has the most skills that cause STAGGER.
4. Sabotage tree for the rogue has the most skills that cause DISORIENT.
5. Elemental tree for the mage has the most skills that cause BRITTLE.
6. Both warrior and mage have 5 skills that exploit CCC, rogue only has 4.
7. Warrior can exploit DISORIENT most with the Weapon and Shield tree.
8. Warrior can exploit BRITTLE most with the Two-Handed tree.
9. Rogue can exploit STAGGER most with the Dual Weapon tree.
10. Rogue can exploit BRITTLE most with the Archer tree.
11. Mage can exploit DISORIENT most with the the Spirit tree.
12. Cleave in the Vanguard tree is the only skill that both causes and takes advantage of CCC.
13. The Archer is the only tree that has two AOE skills that take advantage of CCC.
14. While Chain Lighting is the best skill for exploiting STAGGERED condition, Bursting Arrow is the best skill for exploiting BRITTLE. Both give a 600% bonus to damage. (contributed by ViSeirA )
15. While Pommel Strike and Explosive Strike has the lowest level requirement for a CCC at level 4, Fatiguing Fog and Scatter has the highest level requirement at level 13.
16. Sunder, Cleave, and Lacerate can apply CCC to your basic attack. However, whether they can combine with other talents or not is currently unknown.
17. Walking Bomb is the only skill that can take advantage of CCC without any upgrade.

Terminology:
CCC: Cross class Combo
AOE: Area of Effect

:wizard:congrats for the work there

[DrunkenMonkey]

ooooo colours

[Loc'n'lol]

Thanks for that. The thread that lists all talents is a little discouraging.

[Naitaka]

distinguetraces wrote...

Naitaka wrote...

Ideal party with CCC in mind:
1. Warrior: Warmonger + Weapon and Shield
2. Mage: Elemental + Primal
3. Rogue: Archer + Sabotage
4. class of your liking

Seems to me that Primal + Spirit would be ideal for your mage.

But there will be enough talent points to mix and match, in any case.

Well Peter said that once you use a talent that exploits a CCC, the debuff will be removed afterward. So ideally we'd have one class handling each type of CCC to minimize idle time for each character. As such, Primal would be the better choice especially with the 600% damage bonus on chain lightning. I'll probably swap the 4th team member around alot to manage different situation.

Peter Thomas wrote...

Abilities that strike with a weapon gain any on-hit effects that basic attacks can give. So, yes, auto-crit Whirlwind can Stagger a lot of enemies. If you build a Warrior so that he gets a lot of crit bonuses from other things, you might not need to invest in that particular upgrade to get the same effect.

Cheers.

Modifié par Naitaka, 21 février 2011 - 02:56 .

[Adhin]

Ooh I was just about to quote that here! Look's like my Warrior build is gonna be all kinds of fun. Probably take Isabella with to take advantage of all the staggering hes gonna be doing. Wish we knew item requirements, personally hope there lower this time around. I'd like to play a more 'extreme' Con based char with out giving up armor for it.

Ahh well its all awesome either way.

[Naitaka]

Peter Thomas wrote...

I'll just leave this here...

Brittle +50% critical damage taken
Stagger -25% attack, -25% defense
Disorient -50% defense
Obscure +20% dodge

Top post updated as well, thanks again for all the information Peter.

[Zhel_Ryn]

Thought I'd add Varric's Marksman CCC ability. Love your posts here and the TGS info!

Exploits Staggered:
1. Kickback (with Backlash)
Requires: Level 12
Activated Ability
Physical force: 800% vs. Staggered targets

Kickback already has a 20x Physical force lol. Wonder what 160x PF does on a decently hard hitting attack =P.

Modifié par Zhel_Ryn, 24 février 2011 - 10:41 .

[Naitaka]

Zhel_Ryn wrote...

Thought I'd add Varric's Marksman CCC ability. Love your posts here and the TGS info!

Exploits Staggered:
1. Kickback (with Backlash)
Requires: Level 12
Activated Ability
Physical force: 800% vs. Staggered targets

Kickback already has a 20x Physical force lol. Wonder what 160x PF does on a decently hard hitting attack =P.

Added! Let me know if you find anything else, thanks!

[Biotic Sage]

Thanks for this thread. I'll be playing on nightmare instead of hard to start because apparently we can't get friendly fire at all EXCEPT on nightmare.  Which is kind of dumb...I mean, without friendly fire, is "hard" really hard?  Seems like you could just fireball/apocalyptic firestorm all over the place without a care in the world.  Really disagree with how they seem to have handled that.

I noticed you have Varric's marksman under the mage's section; shouldn't this ability be under the rogue's?

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 25 février 2011 - 04:00 .

[Naitaka]

Biotic Sage wrote...

I noticed you have Varric's marksman under the mage's section; shouldn't this ability be under the rogue's?

Oops

[ALVIG824]

this is very comprehensive, well done. im book marking this hopefully it'll get sticked

[Rocambole4]

Naitaka wrote...

Ideal party with CCC in mind:
1. Warrior: Warmonger + Weapon and Shield
2. Mage: Elemental + Primal
3. Rogue: Archer + Sabotage
4. class of your liking

I think I got my nightmare team all figured out now.

I think I'll have a problem until I reach my "perfect build".

The reason is - brittle is nice, but the most abusive (in theory at least) bonuses come from Staggered.

Staggered is mostly caused by 2h warriors.

2h warriors are not tanks.

I don't want my Hawke to be the healer. Other healer must be the 4th char to allow it.

That means Hawke would have to be an offensive mage, making sttagered even better when compared to Brittle (since I'd have to activate the right abilities when the status appeared manually - in the demo at least you cannot mecanize the CCC status as a condition). If I give up on Stagger combos, I'd have to cast Cone of Cold than change to 2 different chars every time to use the window of opportunity. 

The other plan would be accepting to heal with Hawke, making him Creation/Primal.

That would allow for 2 warriors in the party, controling Hawke most of the time to use chain lightning every time Stagger happened and such. Of course, that would remove all brittle combos but Dissecate... could be nice to avoid brittle friendly fire tough.

Decisions, decisions... XD

Modifié par Rocambole4, 25 février 2011 - 11:40 .

[Naitaka]

Rocambole4 wrote...

*snip

Very true. What I don't know though, is how often will we get the chance to use CCC on nightmare for each fight? Peter has said that a target cannot have more than 1 CCC condition on them at the same time, the new one will override any pre-existing condition on the target, so technically, we will have to do combo in sequence.  Say, disorient with flog and shoot them with archer's lance, then set up for the next combo.

So if all the normal enemies can be taken out by 1 or 2 aoe combo, I really only need the next combo to be high damage single target combo. Weapon and Shield has the only 100% staggering chance skill, so it'll probably help me set up stagger on boss more easily. If I also take Warmonger for Tremor, I'll still be able to aoe stagger when needed, of course it's just not as effective as two-handed warrior, but I think I can probably live with that.

Also, not only am I afraid of the FF potential of two-handed warrior, since it apply CCC as a passive, I fear the AI might mess up my combo inadvertently with auto-attack and I want to play my first Hawke as a damage mage.

Of course it's all theory-crafting at this point so we'll have to see how it turns out comes March 8th.

[Zhel_Ryn]

Rocambole4 wrote...
2h warriors are not tanks.

GRR, TH warriors CAN tank, I will make it tank! Just not as straight forward as the wuss behind the shield.

Naitaka beat me to it, but I think there will be such a thing as CCC overload. As he said, mobs can only have one CCC effect up at once, and to add to that, each CCC state will only benefit one CCC exploit (ie brittle mob is hit by MB, stagger drops, scythe/archer's lance won't get the CCC bonuses). This leads to either not taking all CCC upgrades, or not getting to all the CCC combos in a particular fight due to the carnage (and maybe a headache pausing and planning every single combo).

I have not quite panned it out yet for my group, but I am thinking of not worrying a whole lot about Disorient beyond a possible Burst Shot/Walking Bomb combo on ranged crowds.

[TeamLexana]

Wow, good job, that will be extremely useful, I'm bookmarking this thread just for the first post, lolz.

[Rocambole4]

Naitaka wrote...
...

So if all the normal enemies can be taken out by 1 or 2 aoe combo, I really only need the next combo to be high damage single target combo. Weapon and Shield has the only 100% staggering chance skill, so it'll probably help me set up stagger on boss more easily. If I also take Warmonger for Tremor, I'll still be able to aoe stagger when needed, of course it's just not as effective as two-handed warrior, but I think I can probably live with that.

Also, not only am I afraid of the FF potential of two-handed warrior, since it apply CCC as a passive, I fear the AI might mess up my combo inadvertently with auto-attack and I want to play my first Hawke as a damage mage.

Well, the first part really depend on the encounter design. unless the demo is made of exceptions, maybe now we'll have adds "appearing" mid fight more often. If so, CCC AoEs will be usefull multiple times per encounter (specially boss fights). While I'm a bit afraid of staggering allies, the fact that Chain Lightning cannot friendly fire is amazing in those cases. Of course, I agree removing Brittle (or other CCC) with a passive swing WILL suck eventually. But if boss fights have anything in common with Origin's damage spikes will be not that impressive against the bosses themselves, the AoE spikes sound more important to clear adds.

But I also agree, we're only theorycrafting here. I'm anxious

edit: New idea for single target heavy DPS

Mage with Hex of Death

2h Warrior with Sunder

Rogue with Lacerate, Maim and Merciless Strike

Sounds like major damage to a single target to me over at least 10 seconds.

Add Despair to the mage so the target WILL be stunned

2nd edit: Confirmed by Thomas that Lacerate bleed DoTs stack, and are based on attack damage (in this case, all crits). Yummy

So I'll probably play:

Tank
Primal2+/Creation 2+ /Entropy 3+ mage (primal for AoE CCC without friendly fire mostly, Entropy for boss ownage, creation just for heals)
Melee rogue for boss killer DPS (with some nades to help cowd control)
2h Warrior for Stagger combos and creep cleaning

Modifié par Rocambole4, 25 février 2011 - 08:13 .