51 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Zjarcal wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Before this drags on and on I'll just say: Agree to disagree. 

A wise decision. 

Sometime in the future, we will evolve to the point where we develop an ignore system.

[Ryzaki]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Not so much. I have my own issues with the man. What annoys me is the whole "He's EVUL AND DIEZ IN ULL MA playthrughs!!!" mentality. Or the über sarcastic stuff that has been done to death. It isn't funny anymore. But that's just me.

Let it go. Be zen. Its a perfectly valid character interpretation (as is yours).

This. 

And agreed Persephone. 

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Before this drags on and on I'll just say: Agree to disagree. 

A wise decision. 

Sometime in the future, we will evolve to the point where we develop an ignore system.

You mean when BW gets of their rear and update this forum so it actually has a basic ignore system? I can't wait for that either. 

Finally will be able to avoid be suckered into those troll posts. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 février 2011 - 05:13 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

I was thinking more about a self-developed ignore system, but yea I wouldn't mind Bioware helping us out.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I was thinking more about a self-developed ignore system, but yea I wouldn't mind Bioware helping us out.

 

Ah. 

Yeah BW boards are terrible. I guess I should be happy when can edit our posts.

...I'm going to watch the Boondocks. 

[JnEricsonx]

IMHO, Loghain deserves whatever he gets: Motives or not, he pretty much abandons Cailan's forces, and works tirelessly to keep the remaining Wardens down, partially due to his paranoia of Orlais. Well, he betrayed the army, and his king, those who were relying and counting on him. Knife in the back? Nah, frakking chainsaw.

[Esbatty]

Collider wrote...

Let's say you recruited Loghain, meaning Alistair has left the party and the grey wardens.
You also refuse to do the dark ritual.

When the archdemon is nearly slain, Loghain offers to sacrifice himself for
the good of Ferelden. A patriot to the end. But, are there any reasons
for the warden to sacrifice him or herself instead of Loghain, despite
his crimes and wish for atonement?

Warden needs a bloody day off after all the sh*t they went through. An Epic Death is a great way to start some much needed R&R.

[Beren082]

My first play through, I let him live, and even let him kill the arch deamon.

But I had done the DR without telling him.

Modifié par Beren082, 21 février 2011 - 05:54 .

[Face of Evil]

The only reason I can see for sparing Loghain is for him to die killing the Archdemon.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

it seems the most fitting end for the Hero of the River Dane.

Really? Because I thought cutting his head off was pretty awesome. 

Modifié par Face of Evil, 21 février 2011 - 07:15 .

[rayvioletta]

I just wish we'd been shown more of Loghain's paranoia and got to know more about him without having to rely on the books (which are well worth reading but obviously not everyone is going to read them)

I spent most of my first playthrough convinced that Loghain was somehow being controlled or possessed by the Arch Demon (and later I suspected a Blood Mage after learning more about them) especially given the Darkspawn seeming to know they should attack the Tower of Ishal

instead Loghain was pretty much convinced that the Orlesians were conspiring with the Wardens and that Cailan was pretty much going to hand over the country to them. an idea which is much easier to understand having read his history with the Orlesians and the events of The Calling

[USArmyParatrooper]

rayvioletta wrote...

I just wish we'd been shown more of Loghain's paranoia and got to know more about him without having to rely on the books (which are well worth reading but obviously not everyone is going to read them)
I spent most of my first playthrough convinced that Loghain was somehow being controlled or possessed by the Arch Demon (and later I suspected a Blood Mage after learning more about them) especially given the Darkspawn seeming to know they should attack the Tower of Ishal
instead Loghain was pretty much convinced that the Orlesians were conspiring with the Wardens and that Cailan was pretty much going to hand over the country to them. an idea which is much easier to understand having read his history with the Orlesians and the events of The Calling

It doesn't help that the game throws all kinds "clues" to his evilness. For example, at one point in the tower there is a Cunning choice for dialogue, which essencially says, "Who tipped them off about the tower plan?" 

[LobselVith8]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

It doesn't help that the game throws all kinds "clues" to his evilness. For example, at one point in the tower there is a Cunning choice for dialogue, which essencially says, "Who tipped them off about the tower plan?"

That's because the taint works both ways - that's how the Archdemon saw the Wardens and knew where their camp was later on in the storyline.

[LobselVith8]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...
It doesn't help that the game throws all kinds "clues" to his evilness. For example, at one point in the tower there is a Cunning choice for dialogue, which essencially says, "Who tipped them off about the tower plan?"

Also, I don't think the story really supports Loghain being evil when he's trying to prevent another Orlesian occupation.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 21 février 2011 - 04:56 .

[Persephone]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

rayvioletta wrote...

I just wish we'd been shown more of Loghain's paranoia and got to know more about him without having to rely on the books (which are well worth reading but obviously not everyone is going to read them)
I spent most of my first playthrough convinced that Loghain was somehow being controlled or possessed by the Arch Demon (and later I suspected a Blood Mage after learning more about them) especially given the Darkspawn seeming to know they should attack the Tower of Ishal
instead Loghain was pretty much convinced that the Orlesians were conspiring with the Wardens and that Cailan was pretty much going to hand over the country to them. an idea which is much easier to understand having read his history with the Orlesians and the events of The Calling

It doesn't help that the game throws all kinds "clues" to his evilness. For example, at one point in the tower there is a Cunning choice for dialogue, which essencially says, "Who tipped them off about the tower plan?" 

Actually, that's in reference to the darkspawn sensing you as much as you sense them. Or, in this case, the older Wardens. Something you only discover later during the Shriek Attack at camp if your cunning isn't high. You think Loghain corresponded with the DS somehow? Ridiculous. And I am sick of the whole reduction of every character into the limited "good" vs. "evil" illusion.

Modifié par Persephone, 21 février 2011 - 04:41 .

[USArmyParatrooper]

LobselVith8 wrote...

USArmyParatrooper wrote...
It doesn't help that the game throws all kinds "clues" to his evilness. For example, at one point in the tower there is a Cunning choice for dialogue, which essencially says, "Who tipped them off about the tower plan?"

That's because the taint works both ways - that's how the Archdemon saw the Wardens and knew where their camp was later on in the storyline.

That makes sense, but it's not just that it's other clues they throw out there.

The way the game sets everything up, the casual player (who doesn't read this board, read the books, etc.) is likely to think Loghain is just evil, or at least a horrible, power hungry person. About the only humane side you ever see is right before you cut his head off, when he starts talking softly to his daughter.

Until then everything shows this angry, hate filled guy who leaves you haning on the battlefield, is lying his azz off to smear your name, is pulling out all the stops trying to kill you, trying to kill off his political opposition, who's number one ally slaughtered your entire village and a guy who was running slaves with the poor elves.

Sure, there might be subtle clues here or there that there's more to him, but the totality of their portrayal is of a man who very much deserves to die.

Modifié par USArmyParatrooper, 21 février 2011 - 04:49 .

[Glorfindel709]

@Paratrooper. On the surface, he appears like a man who deserves nothing more than death.



Thankfully, Bioware is alot better at character development than you seem to give them credit for, they would not create a solely evil protagonist. The choice of sparring Loghain is a matter of morality for a reason, because despite his flaws, he is still very much determined to do the best thing for Ferelden based on the knowledge he has.

[Persephone]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

USArmyParatrooper wrote...
It doesn't help that the game throws all kinds "clues" to his evilness. For example, at one point in the tower there is a Cunning choice for dialogue, which essencially says, "Who tipped them off about the tower plan?"

That's because the taint works both ways - that's how the Archdemon saw the Wardens and knew where their camp was later on in the storyline.

That makes sense, but it's not just that it's other clues they throw out there.

The way the game sets everything up, the casual player (who doesn't read this board, read the books, etc.) is likely to think Loghain is just evil, or at least a horrible, power hungry person. About the only humane side you ever see is right before you cut his head off, when he starts talking softly to his daughter.

Until then everything shows this angry, hate filled guy who leaves you haning on the battlefield, is lying his azz off to smear your name, is pulling out all the stops trying to kill you, trying to kill off his political opposition, who's number one ally slaughtered your entire village and a guy who was running slaves with the poor elves.

Sure, there might be subtle clues here or there that there's more to him, but the totality of their portrayal is of a man who very much deserves to die.

His Nr. 1 ally slaughtered an entire village? What did I miss?

And the first time I played (I didn't even KNOW I could spare him) I had Alistair duel him and when that scene came up I felt sickened. I immediately spared him the next time. I don't care for appearances, I always try to dig as deeply as I can. It isn't my call to determine who "deserves to die" as I and my Wardens very much adhere to the "Judge not, lest ye be judged." principle. (Some Wardens are exceptions, I tried everything at least once) Were he just a moustache twirling "HAR, HAR, LOOK HOW EVIL I AM!" monster, we wouldn't still be discussing this 15 months after the game's release. It's his tragedy, his multifaceted character, is well written dialogue....that keeps people enthralled, enraged or infatuated. With him there is no middle ground and that is the highest compliment haters and fans have paid the man.

Modifié par Persephone, 21 février 2011 - 05:12 .

[Morwen Eledhwen]

Persephone wrote...

Were he just a moustache twirling "HAR, HAR, LOOK HOW EVIL I AM!" monster, we wouldn't still be discussing this 15 years after the game's release. It's his tragedy, his multifaceted character, is well written dialogue....that keeps people enthralled, enraged or infatuated. With him there is no middle ground and that is the highest compliment haters and fans have paid the man.

This.

[USArmyParatrooper]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

@Paratrooper. On the surface, he appears like a man who deserves nothing more than death.

Thankfully, Bioware is alot better at character development than you seem to give them credit for, they would not create a solely evil protagonist. The choice of sparring Loghain is a matter of morality for a reason, because despite his flaws, he is still very much determined to do the best thing for Ferelden based on the knowledge he has.

I give the Bioware a tramendous amount of credit for character development, to the point that they're the most "human" fictional characters I've ever encountered in a game. With that being said, even in the real world dispicable people (who in my view deserve death) exist. You can certainly make character of great depth who happens to represent the worst of humanity.

If they wouldn't create a solely evil protagonist, then explain Renden Howe.

[Persephone]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

Glorfindel709 wrote...

@Paratrooper. On the surface, he appears like a man who deserves nothing more than death.

Thankfully, Bioware is alot better at character development than you seem to give them credit for, they would not create a solely evil protagonist. The choice of sparring Loghain is a matter of morality for a reason, because despite his flaws, he is still very much determined to do the best thing for Ferelden based on the knowledge he has.

I give the Bioware a tramendous amount of credit for character development, to the point that they're the most "human" fictional characters I've ever encountered in a game. With that being said, even in the real world dispicable people (who in my view deserve death) exist. You can certainly make character of great depth who happens to represent the worst of humanity.

If they wouldn't create a solely evil protagonist, then explain Renden Howe.

Howe is only protagonist of sorts if you play as a Cousland.

[Persephone]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Were he just a moustache twirling "HAR, HAR, LOOK HOW EVIL I AM!" monster, we wouldn't still be discussing this 15 years after the game's release. It's his tragedy, his multifaceted character, is well written dialogue....that keeps people enthralled, enraged or infatuated. With him there is no middle ground and that is the highest compliment haters and fans have paid the man.

This.

Whoops. Just noticed that I wrote 15 years rather than months. It is NOT 2024 yet.

[Morwen Eledhwen]

Persephone wrote...

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Were he just a moustache twirling "HAR, HAR, LOOK HOW EVIL I AM!" monster, we wouldn't still be discussing this 15 years after the game's release. It's his tragedy, his multifaceted character, is well written dialogue....that keeps people enthralled, enraged or infatuated. With him there is no middle ground and that is the highest compliment haters and fans have paid the man.

This.

Whoops. Just noticed that I wrote 15 years rather than months. It is NOT 2024 yet.

I figured you were making a prediction

[KnightofPhoenix]

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Were he just a moustache twirling "HAR, HAR, LOOK HOW EVIL I AM!" monster, we wouldn't still be discussing this 15 years after the game's release. It's his tragedy, his multifaceted character, is well written dialogue....that keeps people enthralled, enraged or infatuated. With him there is no middle ground and that is the highest compliment haters and fans have paid the man.

This.

I've noticed that debates in general, those pertaining to Loghain precisely, are very much like a business cycle



At the very beginning, the quality of the debates and arguments were very low. Then as we approach the middle, months after release, the quality  of debate improves a great deal, as more and more people started leaving. But as we approach the one year mark, it goes right back down again, with new people coming in and old timers losing their patience. Thus the debates end up being way too polarizing, with bickering and pointless nit picking.

This can be attributed to the number of participatns (DA2 has a part ot play methinks). Time spent on these boards. And the law of diminishing marginal utility, where a certain thing (in this case Loghain debates) start producing less and less pleasure everytime a new one is made, making old timers less and less willing to engage in what has been said a million times. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 février 2011 - 05:22 .

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Morwen Eledhwen wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Were he just a moustache twirling "HAR, HAR, LOOK HOW EVIL I AM!" monster, we wouldn't still be discussing this 15 years after the game's release. It's his tragedy, his multifaceted character, is well written dialogue....that keeps people enthralled, enraged or infatuated. With him there is no middle ground and that is the highest compliment haters and fans have paid the man.

This.

I've noticed that debates in general, those pertaining to Loghain precisely, are very much like a business cycle



At the very beginning, the quality of the debates and arguments were very low. Then as we approach the middle, months after release, the quality  of debate improves a great deal, as more and more people started leaving. But as we approach the one year mark, it goes right back down again, with new people coming in and old timers losing their patience. Thus the debates end up being way too polarizing, with bickering and pointless nit picking.

This can be attributed to the number of participatns (DA2 has a part ot play methinks). Time spent on these boards. And the law of diminishing marginal utility, where a certain thing (in this case Loghain debates) start producing less and less pleasure everytime a new one is made, making old timers less and less willing to engage in what has been said a million times. 

KOP, if I weren't already one of your faithful minions, I would be one now. Excellent post. <3

[CalJones]

Yes, that's about right. I must admit I am less keen to get involved now, though I'll stick my oar in every so often.

[Nerolink]

Collider wrote...

But, are there any reasons
for the warden to sacrifice him or herself instead of Loghain, despite
his crimes and wish for atonement?

The glory. Garahel's name is remembered even after 400 years because he sacrificed himself to slay the archdemon. Of course the Dark Ritual option provides even greater glory because you are the only one in history to kill the beast and live. 

I believe letting Loghain sacrifice himself if you don't do the ritual is best because by losing his life, justice and redemption is achieved at the same time for his actions. Now that's good writing!