54 réponses à ce sujet

[Satyricon331]

I remember Lilly remarking to Jowan that blood magic changes you.  I wonder if there's any game lore that supports this idea being correct in more than a power-corrupts sense?

[thesuperdarkone]

There is no lore that states that Blood Magic can turn you evil. In fact, you can make your Warden a blood mage and still have them be the pinnacle of warmth and kindness, so it's mostly chantry propaganda and a sense of power corrupts that makes blood magic so vilified.

[chapztar]

All depends on the characters personality, making deals with demons never turns out well in the world of Dragon Age but thats why the strong become Blood Mages and the weak become Abominations I guess.

[Aluvious]

Not really. Jowan is a weak Blood Mage, and he's most definitely not corrupt or evil in anyway. Just incredibly gullible and stupid. Seems like most Blood Mages were already evil before they became Blood Mages.

[Face of Evil]

No, it doesn't exert a corrupting influence.

On the other hand … if you practiced a brand of magic that hurt you every time you used it, and it was so incredibly easy to take the life energy you needed from others, and you could just be so much more POWERFUL if you didn't give in to your conscience, THAT YOU COULD BE LIKE UNTO A GOD IF YOU JUST PUT ASIDE THOSE PESKY MORALS ...

Well, that might have an effect on your personality.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 21 février 2011 - 07:37 .

[rayvioletta]

power corrupts. as far as I understand it Blood Magic is really no more evil than any other form of magic, but it has a greater risk and potential for evil. the Chantry love to vilify mages though since it makes it easier for them to control them (which most of them believe is necessary for everyone's own good including the mages)

really though a Blood Mage is no more likely to be evil than a King is to be a tyrant

[SuicidalBaby]

Ha! Yes, this conversation needs to hit this thread, or vice versa.



http://social.biowar...index/6117512/1

[Ferretinabun]

It's a timeless piece of propaganda logic. Works with anything the authorities disapprove of:



A) Blood mages are all eeeeeeevil.

I'm a blood mage and I'm not evil.

A) Yes you are.

How do you figure that?

A) Because you're a blood mage!



Substitute 'blood mage' for any persecuted minority and the logic still holds.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

To open the blood magic specialization in Origins, you have do something pretty evil. I wouldn't say blood mages themselves are evil, as probably alot of them aren't. But I think the forces/energy which fuels the core of blood magic probably is, and is dangerous. Still, there is much we don't know about the mechanics, and might find out more about blood magic minus the propoganda in DA2.



I'm sure while much of the hype about blood magic is Chantry paranoia, not all of it is baseless. Besides Jowan and the mage you meet in the circle quest, all the blood mages I've met in game aren't exactly shining beacons of mental stability and benevolent intention. And as far as we know, it was the worlds biggest blood magic block party that started the Blights.



That doesn't mean one can't play the very paragon of virtue as a Warden blood mage. Or that there's a couple of blood mages running around that are actually nice, sane people who cause no problems. But as a whole, I think that blood magic does have some serious off screen consequences and dangers for both the practioner and society. The game doesn't reflect this because of limitations, but the lore generally does.



And as far as learning blood magic from a book in awakening, that really doesn't count. The fact that you can openly and shameless use blood magic in front of the entire Landsmeet, including the Grand Cleric and many religous nobles, kinda makes my point that game mechanics really don't always reflect the lore.

[LobselVith8]

It's not evil if you intimidate the Desire Demon to leave Connor alone and grant you the knowledge in exchange for sparing her life. In a disabled scene that was taken down because it caused problems with the Landsmeet, Wynne called the Warden out in front of Irving and Greagoir if he used blood magic because she says it was no different than the spells the blood mages used. (But you can persuade her it's "Grey Warden magic.") As Duncan said, Grey Wardens have resorted to using such magic in order to combat the darkspawn. It's no different with the Hero of Ferelden.

[Satyricon331]

So I gather the consensus is that no lore that states blood magic is the reason, say, Caladrius and the Hermit aren't looking so fresh, or that it's physically addictive, or anything.

[LobselVith8]

Satyricon331 wrote...

So I gather the consensus is that no lore that states blood magic is the reason, say, Caladrius and the Hermit aren't looking so fresh, or that it's physically addictive, or anything.

Caladrius doesn't look so fresh after he's been beaten to an inch of his life by the Warden, and there's no telling why the Hermit is insane or why his Tower disappeared without a trace (as Zathrian reveals when you discuss the issue with him). Blood magic is simply using blood instead of mana to power spells - even the templars use of phylacteries is a form of blood magic.

[Sandy2009]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

To open the blood magic specialization in Origins, you have do something pretty evil. I wouldn't say blood mages themselves are evil, as probably alot of them aren't. But I think the forces/energy which fuels the core of blood magic probably is, and is dangerous. Still, there is much we don't know about the mechanics, and might find out more about blood magic minus the propoganda in DA2.

I'm sure while much of the hype about blood magic is Chantry paranoia, not all of it is baseless. Besides Jowan and the mage you meet in the circle quest, all the blood mages I've met in game aren't exactly shining beacons of mental stability and benevolent intention. And as far as we know, it was the worlds biggest blood magic block party that started the Blights.

That doesn't mean one can't play the very paragon of virtue as a Warden blood mage. Or that there's a couple of blood mages running around that are actually nice, sane people who cause no problems. But as a whole, I think that blood magic does have some serious off screen consequences and dangers for both the practioner and society. The game doesn't reflect this because of limitations, but the lore generally does.

And as far as learning blood magic from a book in awakening, that really doesn't count. The fact that you can openly and shameless use blood magic in front of the entire Landsmeet, including the Grand Cleric and many religous nobles, kinda makes my point that game mechanics really don't always reflect the lore.

This.

This game does not implement moral alignment of characters (like BG series had). Nothing changes in your stats if you engage in evil acts, nobody cares. You can kill a police officer on duty (ser cathrine) and nobody cares. You can steal right in front of everybody in market district. Want to kill an ambassador in Royal palace, go right ahead. The approval rating system of companions means nothing... you just buy them out with gifts.

Here is the conventional alignment system:

http://en.wikipedia....ns)#Lawful_Good

I think of blood magic as the dark side of magic. It gives you power over life and most people get corrupted with so much power.

[Satyricon331]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Caladrius doesn't look so fresh after he's been beaten to an inch of his life by the Warden, and there's no telling why the Hermit is insane or why his Tower disappeared without a trace (as Zathrian reveals when you discuss the issue with him). Blood magic is simply using blood instead of mana to power spells - even the templars use of phylacteries is a form of blood magic.

Caladrius doesn't look so fresh when you enter the room, lol.  But I guess it's just because he's old or whatever.

[rwscissors702]

It's hard to say for certain, there aren't so many Blood Mages in the game we get to converse with. Personaly I think it does, I would point to Jowan as proof. He may not be very evil yet, but he (apparently) hasn't been dabbling in it long. If you are the Mage who helps him escape from his tower he lies to you to get you to risk your own life and then leaves you to face the consequences when the plan falls apart. He leaves you to face the Death Sentence he rightfully deserves and you've friends your whole life.

[LobselVith8]

rwscissors702 wrote...

It's hard to say for certain, there aren't so many Blood Mages in the game we get to converse with. Personaly I think it does, I would point to Jowan as proof. He may not be very evil yet, but he (apparently) hasn't been dabbling in it long. If you are the Mage who helps him escape from his tower he lies to you to get you to risk your own life and then leaves you to face the consequences when the plan falls apart. He leaves you to face the Death Sentence he rightfully deserves and you've friends your whole life.

Jowan ran because he was scared. His choices were either execution or lobotomy, and the woman he loved spurned him because he was a blood mage. There's no indication using blood magic makes you evil, and Jowan isn't evil, either. He's a very flawed person. The fact that, if you let him go in Redcliffe and don't ask him to aid you, he becomes Master Levyn and helps refugees survive against the darkspawn, tells me that he has a chance at redemption for his mistakes.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

rwscissors702 wrote...

It's hard to say for certain, there aren't so many Blood Mages in the game we get to converse with. Personaly I think it does, I would point to Jowan as proof. He may not be very evil yet, but he (apparently) hasn't been dabbling in it long. If you are the Mage who helps him escape from his tower he lies to you to get you to risk your own life and then leaves you to face the consequences when the plan falls apart. He leaves you to face the Death Sentence he rightfully deserves and you've friends your whole life.

I wouldn't say he rightfully should be executed simply for dabling in blood magic and romancing a priest, and I don't think him abandoning you is so much "corruption" as it is just a case of him being a coward, which he most likely was anyway without blood magic. Jowan wasn't evil, he was an epic screw up whose talent lay in creating chain reaction disasters due to ineptitude.

And I don't think that it is power per say that corrupts, but the nature/essence of that power that is problematic. I sort of think of magic like water: In it's basic state, it is safe to drink, refreshing, and good for you. However, water can also contain impurities, pathogens, and chemicals that can play havoc on one's health and even kill them in certain caises. I think blood magic is sort of like that in a sense: water contaminated with impurities that if drunk regularly, will cause major problems. I think it is a type of power that in itself, is at some level, corrupted in it's own right naturally.

Though personally, I think the Chantry's reaction to blood magic has many other motives as well. For normal mages, extra magic requires lyrium to cast, a resource the Chantry has a monpoly over. Blood magic, however, is fueled by life energy and life force, a fuel that the Chantry can't control, but one that is abundant and readily available and inexpensive. They might be able to keep normal mages from engaging in more powerful magics due to its stranglehold on lyrium, but blood mages have no such reign when it comes to aquiring raw energy for more powerful magic.

[rwscissors702]

Those are good points, perhaps my opinion of him is colored by my recent play though as a Mage. To me the worst thing about Jowan that pisses me off is how he left his best friend twisting in the wind. What do you think happened to that Mage if Duncan isn't in the tower to conscript him or her?

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

rwscissors702 wrote...

Those are good points, perhaps my opinion of him is colored by my recent play though as a Mage. To me the worst thing about Jowan that pisses me off is how he left his best friend twisting in the wind. What do you think happened to that Mage if Duncan isn't in the tower to conscript him or her?

Execution or some severe form of imprisonment and punishment, most likely. Maybe even Aeonar, which is supposed to be a nightmare assylum. Yeah, alot of people were pretty pissed off about that, being abandoned and left to the wolves, but generally, given what we know of Jowan, it's more a case of him being a short sighted idiot with little spine and alot of whine. Even the mess he made in redcliffe was more a case of him being born with the ability to turn everything he looks upon into disaster.

I think had Jowan continued to pursue blood magic more seriously, or even kept at the minor levels he was at now, he'd become an abomination, because he lacks the will and self control to deal with the dangers of increased demonic contact/influence. basically, in the mage origin, it is not only stated that he is a suspected blood mage, but hinted that he had no talent or control over his abilities, and likely would have been tranquiled without being a blood mage, because it would have been risky to put him against a demon, given his ineptitude and lack of will.

[LobselVith8]

rwscissors702 wrote...

Those are good points, perhaps my opinion of him is colored by my recent play though as a Mage. To me the worst thing about Jowan that pisses me off is how he left his best friend twisting in the wind. What do you think happened to that Mage if Duncan isn't in the tower to conscript him or her?

The protagonists we hear about all seem to perish if Duncan didn't recruit them (like the corpse of the dwarven commoner we encounter if we play as another Warden). I'd assume it's no different with the mage protagonist.

[LobselVith8]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Execution or some severe form of imprisonment and punishment, most likely. Maybe even Aeonar, which is supposed to be a nightmare assylum. Yeah, alot of people were pretty pissed off about that, being abandoned and left to the wolves, but generally, given what we know of Jowan, it's more a case of him being a short sighted idiot with little spine and alot of whine. Even the mess he made in redcliffe was more a case of him being born with the ability to turn everything he looks upon into disaster.

In all fairness, Jowan seems to have gotten it right as "Levyn."

I think had Jowan continued to pursue blood magic more seriously, or even kept at the minor levels he was at now, he'd become an abomination, because he lacks the will and self control to deal with the dangers of increased demonic contact/influence. basically, in the mage origin, it is not only stated that he is a suspected blood mage, but hinted that he had no talent or control over his abilities, and likely would have been tranquiled without being a blood mage, because it would have been risky to put him against a demon, given his ineptitude and lack of will.

I didn't see Jowan as inept. There did seem to be the underlying idea that he wasn't as talented as the mage protagonist, but he seemed very fluent in many blood magic spells, including the one necessary to go into the Fade if we use Isolde as the sacrifice. I can't fault a person because they don't feel as talented as the future Hero of Ferelden.

[Satyricon331]

rwscissors702 wrote...

Those are good points, perhaps my opinion of him is colored by my recent play though as a Mage. To me the worst thing about Jowan that pisses me off is how he left his best friend twisting in the wind. What do you think happened to that Mage if Duncan isn't in the tower to conscript him or her?

I've wondered about that issue too, but it's partly because Bioware wrote the Origin so poorly,* at least if you side with Jowan.  Even if Irving and Greagoir didn't show up when your leave the repository, the plan Jowan and Lily hatched was going to screw you over anyway.  They thought you could blast the locks off using a Rod of Fire... but it's your name attached to the form that checked it out!  Why would a mage, even one who wants to help J & L out, agree to do it that way?  I've always thought he/she would make them rethink the plan/find another way to blast a door open (like searching for something in the repository of dangerous magical items; you might expect some powerful magic explosive there, and the dog statue you find is pretty close) - but it just isn't an option. 

Besides, in Jowan's defense, he probably assumes you feel the same way most mages do about blood magic, so why would he think you'd support him?  He doesn't have time to ask, really.  And it's not like he's stopping you from running out the door with him, you just don't.

*edit: I shouldn't say it's poorly written.  Fantasy stories rarely withstand too much scrutiny since there's so much to create and account for, and I think DAO is great given the genre.  I just mean to say when you side with Jowan, the way the wrote the player character's behavior leaves a lot of room for the PC's sense of self-preservation to increase. 

Modifié par Satyricon331, 22 février 2011 - 04:59 .

[mcsupersport]

All/most bloodmages being evil is a self-fulfilling statement. Blood magic carries a death sentence and is outlawed by chantry and tower, so nice people will not use it, just a fact. Nice people will say it isn't worth it the risk to my life to use a little bit more power when I have plenty of Lyrium right there to do everything I need to do. Evil/bad people will use it because it means more power and they will be killed anyway for trying something else anyway so why not use every means possible to ensure success. Blood magic is easy power and yet the penalty for most is death, so it will by it's stigma and punishment weed out most nice people.



Blood magic is mush like any other power, open to abuse, and not really good or evil in itself, but only in how it is used.



As a side note, why couldn't you use about 5 people's blood to power the ritual to save the boy instead of only one, since blood is power and 5 people should produce more than a single one.

[ObserverStatus]

thesuperdarkone wrote...

There is no lore that states that Blood Magic can turn you evil. In fact, you can make your Warden a blood mage and still have them be the pinnacle of warmth and kindness, so it's mostly chantry propaganda and a sense of power corrupts that makes blood magic so vilified.

If your warden is a pinnacle of warmth and kindness, why would he trade Connor to the Desire Demon? <_<

[Bigdoser]

bobobo878 wrote...

thesuperdarkone wrote...

There is no lore that states that Blood Magic can turn you evil. In fact, you can make your Warden a blood mage and still have them be the pinnacle of warmth and kindness, so it's mostly chantry propaganda and a sense of power corrupts that makes blood magic so vilified.

If your warden is a pinnacle of warmth and kindness, why would he trade Connor to the Desire Demon? <_<

I swear you can intimidate her to teach you it and still save conner?