54 réponses à ce sujet

[Ninotchka]

Bigdoser wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

thesuperdarkone wrote...

There is no lore that states that Blood Magic can turn you evil. In fact, you can make your Warden a blood mage and still have them be the pinnacle of warmth and kindness, so it's mostly chantry propaganda and a sense of power corrupts that makes blood magic so vilified.

If your warden is a pinnacle of warmth and kindness, why would he trade Connor to the Desire Demon? <_<

I swear you can intimidate her to teach you it and still save conner?

I might be wrong but I believe that your coercion skill (cunning and/or strength?) needs to be high enough to do so......and if you choose to do this part of Redcliffe earlier on in the game you might not have enough points in your coercion skill set in order to do so....so making that dirty deal with the Desire Demon might be the only way to go to learn the BM specialisation.

[Marcy3655]

Kinda odd but as I was leveling up Wynne near the end of the game and I started thinking she is always so adamant about how evil and insane blood mages are, and then I saw that I had a spec point to spend and ended up making her a blood mage!!! lol



I thought she might scream OMG!!! I'm a blood mage!!! and go running off screen never to be seen again... but everything just went on like it normally does... lol



So no, I don't think it changes anything about a charcter..





I thought it was pretty funny anyways.. =)



M

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

LobselVith8 wrote...

In all fairness, Jowan seems to have gotten it right as "Levyn."

So I've heard, but that is a quest I've never gotten, because I've never released Jowan, for various RP reasons as well as mechanical ones. You need him if you want to save Connor via Isolde's sacrifice.

I didn't see Jowan as inept. There did seem to be the underlying idea that he wasn't as talented as the mage protagonist, but he seemed very fluent in many blood magic spells, including the one necessary to go into the Fade if we use Isolde as the sacrifice. I can't fault a person because they don't feel as talented as the future Hero of Ferelden.

it's been hinted several times that Jowan is an inept mage, who lacks the will and discipline to actually be a good mage, one capable of resiting basic demonic possesion. it wasn't about him being an epic mage, it was about him having even the most basic attributes to handle being a mage without endangering himself or others. In the fade, he had only one blood magic spell. the fact that he knew about that particular ritual was interesting, but it was really luck and game mechanics that it worked. He wasn't really that adept at blood magic, either.

I actually liked Jowan and a character and former best friend of my mage warden. But he is pretty much an epic screw up in just about everything he touched. And I do think the first demon of any strength that notices him would probably have little problems in posessing him. He simply lacks the willpower and wisdom to survive the dangers of being a mage.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Marcy3655 wrote...

Kinda odd but as I was leveling up Wynne near the end of the game and I started thinking she is always so adamant about how evil and insane blood mages are, and then I saw that I had a spec point to spend and ended up making her a blood mage!!! lol

I thought she might scream OMG!!! I'm a blood mage!!! and go running off screen never to be seen again... but everything just went on like it normally does... lol

So no, I don't think it changes anything about a charcter..


M

Game mechanics. Just like you can make Alistair a soul sucking reaver, even though such a specialization is contrary to his person. Same thing with Wynne. The game really ignores RP aspects of specializations, so putting a Blood Mage spec on Wynne will have no effect, even though from a character and RP perspective, it absolutely should.

[fkirenicus]

I would consider it a great mod if someone could make restrictions about this. Making Wynne a blood mage for example, is completely contradictory to the story and personality of the character. What's more, the fact that my Warden is a blood mage herself, should have had more impact on the story. Or is there a reason the templars hunt down blood mages - except for my Warden (and Morrigan)?

[ObserverStatus]

Bigdoser wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

thesuperdarkone wrote...

There is no lore that states that Blood Magic can turn you evil. In fact, you can make your Warden a blood mage and still have them be the pinnacle of warmth and kindness, so it's mostly chantry propaganda and a sense of power corrupts that makes blood magic so vilified.

If your warden is a pinnacle of warmth and kindness, why would he trade Connor to the Desire Demon? <_<

I swear you can intimidate her to teach you it and still save conner?

You can? Aww I feel like such a douche now, poor Connor.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

fkirenicus wrote...

I would consider it a great mod if someone could make restrictions about this. Making Wynne a blood mage for example, is completely contradictory to the story and personality of the character. What's more, the fact that my Warden is a blood mage herself, should have had more impact on the story. Or is there a reason the templars hunt down blood mages - except for my Warden (and Morrigan)?

Well, supposedly, Wardens have some sort of immunity when it comes to legal restrictions on Maleficar. So, at least by letter of the law, if you are a Warden blood mage, the Chantry and templar can't touch you, because Wardens have the right to recruit anyone, and by doing so, gain amnesty for their crimes.

In practice, however, we see this is not so, since Warden or not, templars like Rylock, Gregoire, and Cullen still believe Chantry law supercedes such things. And given that Wardens are outlawed in Ferelden for the majority of Origins, then legally, such protections should evaporate, and a Warden blood mage should still be considered a dangerous maleficar and hunted down to be killed like any other.

The game should have had more impact in choices of specialization, especially when dealing with something that is so widely known and feared. Originally, they were going to introduce a lyrium mechanic. Like templars, mages can get hooked on lyrium if they use it constantly, and the more they use it, the more they need it. But they trashed that because it would have been too cumbersome.

Still, I think that certain NPCs should have had a reaction to certain specs.

[Satyricon331]

Bigdoser wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

thesuperdarkone wrote...

There is no lore that states that Blood Magic can turn you evil. In fact, you can make your Warden a blood mage and still have them be the pinnacle of warmth and kindness, so it's mostly chantry propaganda and a sense of power corrupts that makes blood magic so vilified.

If your warden is a pinnacle of warmth and kindness, why would he trade Connor to the Desire Demon? <_<

I swear you can intimidate her to teach you it and still save conner?

Yeah, if you have 4 points in coercion and follow a specific conversation path then you can.

[rwscissors702]

Satyricon331 wrote...
Besides, in Jowan's defense, he probably assumes you feel the same way most mages do about blood magic, so why would he think you'd support him?  He doesn't have time to ask, really.  And it's not like he's stopping you from running out the door with him, you just don't.

Ha! I'll be darned... I guess I didn't pay close enough attention, I thought I got knocked out with Irving and the Templars. I was hiding behind Jowan while he's talking to Lily.

[sylvanaerie]

Bigdoser wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

thesuperdarkone wrote...

There is no lore that states that Blood Magic can turn you evil. In fact, you can make your Warden a blood mage and still have them be the pinnacle of warmth and kindness, so it's mostly chantry propaganda and a sense of power corrupts that makes blood magic so vilified.

If your warden is a pinnacle of warmth and kindness, why would he trade Connor to the Desire Demon? <_<

I swear you can intimidate her to teach you it and still save conner?

Demons aren't known for keeping their word.  Look what Kitty does in Stone Prisoner if you lack the cunning to lie convincingly to her and tell her "Ya I will set you free if you leave the girl alone." She will try to possess Amalia anyway.  So...yea that creature isn't getting out of Connor's noggin alive on my playthroughs. 
Plus, she's rather proud of what she did so no, not leaving that running loose to possess someone else.

[Iosev]

In my opinion, there must be some hidden motive for the Chantry suppressing blood magic. Honestly, all of the schools of magic can be used in very fearsome manners, not just blood magic. For example, controlling people through their blood can be horrific, but burning people with an inferno with primal magic, or causing someone to explode with spirit magic, or cursing someone with death or mortality from the entropy line can be just as horrific.

There must be something that the Chantry fears about blood magic beyond it's power to control minds through the blood and/or killing (any magic can be used to kill people, even creation magic can summon an insect swarm to kill someone).

Modifié par arcelonious, 23 février 2011 - 09:10 .

[LobselVith8]

arcelonious wrote...

In my opinion, there must be some hidden motive for the Chantry suppressing blood magic. Honestly, all of the schools of magic can be used in very fearsome manners, not just blood magic. For example, controlling people through their blood can be horrific, but burning people with an inferno with primal magic, or causing someone to explode with spirit magic, or cursing someone with death or mortality from the entropy line can be just as horrific.

There must be something that the Chantry fears about blood magic beyond just controlling and killing people (any magic can be used to kill people, even creation magic can summon an insect swarm to kill someone).

The Chantry controls the mages across Thedas through their Circles, and they can kill mages or give them a lobotomy on the basis of them being maleficar. We see from the Magi Origin that First Enchanter Irving didn't even see the evidence that Knight-Commander Greagoir claimed to have on Jowan, but the Rite of Tranquility was already signed by Greagoir. IMHO, it seems to be all about control.

[Iosev]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Chantry controls the mages across Thedas through their Circles, and they can kill mages or give them a lobotomy on the basis of them being maleficar. We see from the Magi Origin that First Enchanter Irving didn't even see the evidence that Knight-Commander Greagoir claimed to have on Jowan, but the Rite of Tranquility was already signed by Greagoir. IMHO, it seems to be all about control.

There's no question that the Chantry seeks to control mages; that wasn't my point though.  My point was that the Chantry at least tolerates the other schools of magic (i.e., Primal, Creation, Spirit, and Entropy), even though many of the spells within these schools of magic can be destructive and corrupt ( it depends on the individual and how they use them),  but when it comes to blood magic, you're immediately branded as a maleficar.

Supposedly it is because blood magic corrupts mages (which led to those mages corrupting the Black City), but we don't really know if that is the complete truth or not.

Modifié par arcelonious, 23 février 2011 - 09:54 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Does blood magic literally, physically change you? I doubt it. Does it change your character? Well, it certainly immediately puts you on a slippery slope in the best of cases, irregardless of the fact that the sort of people who would dabble in blood magic in Ferelden are the desperate/power hungry sort who are most likely to abuse it.



Blood magic starts of small and reasonable, but quickly starts justifying much greater wrongs by incrimentalism. At the start, who can complain? It's your blood, after all. But then your blood isn't enough, and other people's blood is necessary to keep on pushing: voluntarily, of course, at first, because you know you would never do it against their will.



But then there comes that point and, well, they trust you to do the right thing, and it's for the best, and they'd probably agree anyway. Then it's necessary, and then a lot of blood is necessary. And then you realize, after some time, that there are a lot of useless fighters and people out there who would be more effective simply giving you more effectiveness than actually fighting on their own. And hey, if we can tax people of their economic life blood against their will, why not their literal life blood? Just a little, of course... until it isn't. Those bloody idiot politicians who are getting in the way of you doing good... why not change their mind for them? Just one little drop...



What started as harmless self-sacrifice, just by little, reasonable steps, can lead to mass bleedings and great abuses. Blood magic is both the means and the slope to one's own destruction.

[Iosev]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Does blood magic literally, physically change you? I doubt it. Does it change your character? Well, it certainly immediately puts you on a slippery slope in the best of cases, irregardless of the fact that the sort of people who would dabble in blood magic in Ferelden are the desperate/power hungry sort who are most likely to abuse it.

Blood magic starts of small and reasonable, but quickly starts justifying much greater wrongs by incrimentalism. At the start, who can complain? It's your blood, after all. But then your blood isn't enough, and other people's blood is necessary to keep on pushing: voluntarily, of course, at first, because you know you would never do it against their will.

But then there comes that point and, well, they trust you to do the right thing, and it's for the best, and they'd probably agree anyway. Then it's necessary, and then a lot of blood is necessary. And then you realize, after some time, that there are a lot of useless fighters and people out there who would be more effective simply giving you more effectiveness than actually fighting on their own. And hey, if we can tax people of their economic life blood against their will, why not their literal life blood? Just a little, of course... until it isn't. Those bloody idiot politicians who are getting in the way of you doing good... why not change their mind for them? Just one little drop...

What started as harmless self-sacrifice, just by little, reasonable steps, can lead to mass bleedings and great abuses. Blood magic is both the means and the slope to one's own destruction.

But it's not just blood magic that can corrupt; essentially all types of power can corrupt an indvidual.  Using your example, what's to stop a mage who specializes in spirit magic to kill people in order to syphon spiritual energy from their corpses or slaughter people in order to animate their skeletons?  What's to stop a mage who specializes in entropy magic to curse his enemies with a death hex?  Both the Spirit and Entropy schools of magic seem to be tolerated by the Chantry, yet both can corrupt people as well.

Power doesn't even have to come from magic.  A teyrn can wield tremendous politic power; he may abuse that and do things like leave kings and armies to die, order mages to poison political enemies, or sell elves as slaves (such as Teyrn Loghain).

That's the problem with the slippery slope argument.  All types of power can potentially corrupt; but not every individual succumbs to it.  The Chantry seemingly wants people to believe that blood magic by its very nature corrupts which I admit could be true, but I personally think that there is more to blood magic than what the Chantry has revealed.

Modifié par arcelonious, 24 février 2011 - 12:20 .

[rayvioletta]

arcelonious wrote...
There must be something that the Chantry fears about blood magic beyond it's power to control minds through the blood and/or killing (any magic can be used to kill people, even creation magic can summon an insect swarm to kill someone).

I dunno that sounds like enough to me. sure any school of magic can be used to kill, but it's generally pretty obvious when a charred corpse has been killed with fire, not so obvious if somebody is being controlled by a blood mage (although Gregoir does claim to be able to tell that Lilly wasn't under Jowan's thrall but that was when both Lilly and Jowan were at very close range, until then he'd not been certain)
just think of the potential. what if the King was being controlled by a blood mage? certainly more to be scared of there than "what if the King exploded into a mess of fire?"

[jaikss]

rayvioletta wrote...

arcelonious wrote...
There must be something that the Chantry fears about blood magic beyond it's power to control minds through the blood and/or killing (any magic can be used to kill people, even creation magic can summon an insect swarm to kill someone).

I dunno that sounds like enough to me. sure any school of magic can be used to kill, but it's generally pretty obvious when a charred corpse has been killed with fire, not so obvious if somebody is being controlled by a blood mage (although Gregoir does claim to be able to tell that Lilly wasn't under Jowan's thrall but that was when both Lilly and Jowan were at very close range, until then he'd not been certain)
just think of the potential. what if the King was being controlled by a blood mage? certainly more to be scared of there than "what if the King exploded into a mess of fire?"

With the existence of items like litany of Adralla,that supposedly completely nullify any mind control,I wonder just how likely something like that happening is.

Maybe its just me,but I just dont buy this "even one maleficar could control the mind of a king or a grand cleric",if there really was no efficient way for a king or any other important political figure to protect againt mind control,how on earth could a country like Tevinter be able to function,if supposedly any magister or other important character could be controlled by any talented blood mage?To me,atleast,it absolutely could not.As such it would seem logical that there is indeed a very working and an efficient way to protect against mind control.

[Marcy3655]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Marcy3655 wrote...

Kinda odd but as I was leveling up Wynne near the end of the game and I started thinking she is always so adamant about how evil and insane blood mages are, and then I saw that I had a spec point to spend and ended up making her a blood mage!!! lol

I thought she might scream OMG!!! I'm a blood mage!!! and go running off screen never to be seen again... but everything just went on like it normally does... lol

So no, I don't think it changes anything about a charcter..


M

Game mechanics. Just like you can make Alistair a soul sucking reaver, even though such a specialization is contrary to his person. Same thing with Wynne. The game really ignores RP aspects of specializations, so putting a Blood Mage spec on Wynne will have no effect, even though from a character and RP perspective, it absolutely should.

I was thinking it might be fun to work on some mods that change certain things about a character if you give them one of those specializations...    I still have much to learn on the toolset, but I'm going to work on it and see if I can come up with anything because it doesn't seem to make much sense otherwise...

M

[KnightofPhoenix]

The info from the DA2 site is revealing.

"Nothing inspires as much wild-eyed terror as the Blood Mage. Mages of this type take the raw energy of life and twist it to their own purposes. They can corrupt and control, and sustain their power by consuming the health of others, willing or not. The effects can be vile, but this specialization isn’t limited to madmen and monsters. Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it’s tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons. It remains an undeniably violent and self-destructive discipline, however, and the Blood Mage must be careful. The temptation to take just a little more is always there."

So it seems that blood magic is not tied to demons. The knowledge may come from them, but the magic itself is independent. It also explicitly says that it's inevitably self-destructive, but then one would wonder why it's saying that a blood mage should be careful. I am not going to take this word for word, the way I understood it, it's tempting and if the blood mage is not careful, he will succumb to temptation and self-destruction.

We need to know about the Tevinter magisters and how they delt with blood magic, to see if it's really inevitably self-destructive.

[Iosev]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

The info from the DA2 site is revealing.
"Nothing inspires as much wild-eyed terror as the Blood Mage. Mages of this type take the raw energy of life and twist it to their own purposes. They can corrupt and control, and sustain their power by consuming the health of others, willing or not. The effects can be vile, but this specialization isn’t limited to madmen and monsters. Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it’s tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons. It remains an undeniably violent and self-destructive discipline, however, and the Blood Mage must be careful. The temptation to take just a little more is always there."
So it seems that blood magic is not tied to demons. The knowledge may come from them, but the magic itself is independent. It also explicitly says that it's inevitably self-destructive, but then one would wonder why it's saying that a blood mage should be careful. I am not going to take this word for word, the way I understood it, it's tempting and if the blood mage is not careful, he will succumb to temptation and self-destruction.
We need to know about the Tevinter magisters and how they delt with blood magic, to see if it's really inevitably self-destructive.

I'm guessing that the Chantry, for whatever their true purpose, has largely been successful at eradicating most blood mages in Ferelden; so much so that the only way to learn it outside of Tevinter is through demons.  Thus, like you mentioned, it's not that blood magic originates from demons, but rather, demons seem to be the last few remaining beings that know how to wield it.

This in turn makes me think about a lot of questions.  Is the blood magic taught by demons altered in some way?  Is there a more "pure" form of blood magic?  Is the blood magic that the Tevinter mages use the same as the ones taught from demons? 

Modifié par arcelonious, 25 février 2011 - 08:56 .

[JedTed]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I wouldn't say he rightfully should be executed simply for dabling in blood magic and romancing a priest, and I don't think him abandoning you is so much "corruption" as it is just a case of him being a coward, which he most likely was anyway without blood magic. Jowan wasn't evil, he was an epic screw up whose talent lay in creating chain reaction disasters due to ineptitude.

And I don't think that it is power per say that corrupts, but the nature/essence of that power that is problematic. I sort of think of magic like water: In it's basic state, it is safe to drink, refreshing, and good for you. However, water can also contain impurities, pathogens, and chemicals that can play havoc on one's health and even kill them in certain caises. I think blood magic is sort of like that in a sense: water contaminated with impurities that if drunk regularly, will cause major problems. I think it is a type of power that in itself, is at some level, corrupted in it's own right naturally.

Though personally, I think the Chantry's reaction to blood magic has many other motives as well. For normal mages, extra magic requires lyrium to cast, a resource the Chantry has a monpoly over. Blood magic, however, is fueled by life energy and life force, a fuel that the Chantry can't control, but one that is abundant and readily available and inexpensive. They might be able to keep normal mages from engaging in more powerful magics due to its stranglehold on lyrium, but blood mages have no such reign when it comes to aquiring raw energy for more powerful magic.

When you put it that way i geuss blood magic isn't nessicarily evil, it's just how you use it.

Still, it's weird that having the Blood Mage specialzation doesn't influence how characters in the world see you.  Although when you point out the part where Wardens can resort to extreme mesures if it gets the job done then i geuss it doesn't matter.

Sandy2009 wrote...

This game does not implement moral alignment of characters (like BG series had). Nothing changes in your stats if you engage in evil acts, nobody cares. You can kill a police officer on duty (ser cathrine) and nobody cares. You can steal right in front of everybody in market district. Want to kill an ambassador in Royal palace, go right ahead. The approval rating system of companions means nothing... you just buy them out with gifts.

And people say Mass Effect's P/R system is broken.

[Satyricon331]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
The info from the DA2 site is revealing.
"Nothing inspires as much wild-eyed terror as the Blood Mage. Mages of this type take the raw energy of life and twist it to their own purposes. They can corrupt and control, and sustain their power by consuming the health of others, willing or not. The effects can be vile, but this specialization isn’t limited to madmen and monsters. Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it’s tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons. It remains an undeniably violent and self-destructive discipline, however, and the Blood Mage must be careful. The temptation to take just a little more is always there."
So it seems that blood magic is not tied to demons. The knowledge may come from them, but the magic itself is independent. It also explicitly says that it's inevitably self-destructive, but then one would wonder why it's saying that a blood mage should be careful. I am not going to take this word for word, the way I understood it, it's tempting and if the blood mage is not careful, he will succumb to temptation and self-destruction.
We need to know about the Tevinter magisters and how they delt with blood magic, to see if it's really inevitably self-destructive.

Bleh.  I've seen that new description of blood magic, and the sentence that suggests that simply channeling mana is a favor from spirits seems so perilously close to retconning.  It makes me so unhappy.  

Anyways, to bring it back to the topic, hopefully I'm not parsing it too closely but their describing the discipline as self-destructive suggested to me that it has discipline-level, not individual-level problems.  What comes to mind is an image of a powerful blood mage teaching apprentices and then deciding to use them as involuntary blood sacrifices, hindering propagation of the discipline's knowledge.  I guess it really depends on which sense of the term "discipline" they intended, so ultimately it's ambiguous. (edit: not that it couldn't mean both, of course.)

Modifié par Satyricon331, 26 février 2011 - 08:08 .

[Iosev]

Has anyone ever wondered if maybe the reason that the Chantry persecutes blood magi to such an extent is because the heads of the Chantry are actually blood magi themselves? Perhaps the heads of the Chantry do not want people to learn of blood magic because it would expose their "true" hold over their followers.

Think about it, what if the Chant that the Chantry has been trying to spread across the world is really a massive incantation for mind control?

I think a remember seeing a gift for Wynne (I think it was called "The Search for the True Prophet") that postulated that Andraste may have been a powerful mage, and not really the "Maker's Chosen."  When you read the book's description, it notes that it was saved from a fire, hinting that someone may have tried to burn and destroy its knowledge.

Or how about this: doesn't it seem odd that the Chantry forbids blood magic, yet they extract blood from every mage to compose these phylacteries that magically help them track each mage down? Aren't phylacteries really a form of blood magic?

Modifié par arcelonious, 26 février 2011 - 04:23 .

[DPSSOC]

arcelonious wrote...

In my opinion, there must be some hidden motive for the Chantry suppressing blood magic. Honestly, all of the schools of magic can be used in very fearsome manners, not just blood magic. For example, controlling people through their blood can be horrific, but burning people with an inferno with primal magic, or causing someone to explode with spirit magic, or cursing someone with death or mortality from the entropy line can be just as horrific.

There must be something that the Chantry fears about blood magic beyond it's power to control minds through the blood and/or killing (any magic can be used to kill people, even creation magic can summon an insect swarm to kill someone).

Well let's look at Jowan as a case study for Blood Magic shall we.  Now from the Origin we find out that Jowan is a mediocre mage at best, not particularly skilled or powerful and perhaps one who won't even be allowed to risk the Harrowing (even before the Blood Magic incident).  Now using Blood Magic Jowan was able to overpower 4 Templars, a Knight Commander, and Senior enchanter with only his own blood to draw on.  With access to a single life Jowan is capable of performing a ritual that normally requires multiple mages (the number 6 is standing out for some reason) and a lot of lyrium.  Now imagine what a more powerful mage could do with 1 life, 10, 100, 1000.

The power divide between a normal mage and blood mage is huge (supposed to be anyway), and that makes them a very real threat.

Blood magic may not be a corrupting influence but keeping mages away from it makes them easier to control.