334 réponses à ce sujet

[Eguintir Eligard]

I am seconding no exp for OLM.

Reasons:

-The project is huge. It will be hard enough to make sure everyones modules synch up level wise without adding the variable of + or - 3 to 7 levels due to exping in the OLM

-Getting caught resting no longer rewards you with potential xp

-Stops people from MMORPGing the campaign

Really mostly #1. How am I going to balance my level 7 tower (example) if the player may or may not be level 5,6,7,8 coming out of the previous modules? An yes, i am that specific when balancing.

[nicethugbert]

You guys worry about **** that doesn't matter.

[Kaldor Silverwand]

I think if you are going to use a major SoZ feature like the OLM then it should work as any SoZ player would expect. If someone wants to grind for xp on the OLM, then that is how they want to spend their time, so be it. Someone can use the party editor and import 20 level characters from SoZ if they want. So I wouldn't worry so much about perfect balance. Some people like challenge, and some like a cakewalk. In a sandbox environment balance for individual areas isn't as critical. If I enter a tower and get my hat handed to me then I know I should go do something else and come back later. If it is a cakewalk then i know I should have done it sooner.

I don't think it matters as much as it does in linear games, so I wouldn't spend so much time worrying about it and trying to coordinate.

Just my 2 cents.

Regards

[Shallina]

there will be enought content with real area to level up with real module and not by grinding the overland map unlike SOZ I think.

[Shaun the Crazy One]

Eguintir Eligard wrote...
I am seconding no exp for OLM.

Reasons:

-The project is huge. It will be hard enough to make sure everyones modules synch up level wise without adding the variable of + or - 3 to 7 levels due to exping in the OLM

-Getting caught resting no longer rewards you with potential xp

-Stops people from MMORPGing the campaign

Really mostly #1. How am I going to balance my level 7 tower (example) if the player may or may not be level 5,6,7,8 coming out of the previous modules? An yes, i am that specific when balancing.

I agree with this as well, although I question if we should be rigid about what level is required to complete a certain area.  It may be better to set up encounters and scripts that allow the challenge of an area adjust depending on player level.

If not than what exactly is to prevent a lv 7 party from entering an area ment for lv12 characters, since we're using the SOZ system.  I mentioned this in an earlier post, but it worth repeating.  It can actually be a game breaking issue if not handled properly.

Modifié par Shaun the Crazy One, 28 février 2011 - 07:23 .

[WyrinDnjargo]

Thems the breaks for playing in a sandbox
That said there is a lot that can be done in secOnd guessing players and looking for the linear reality of non linear choices. So if location a is near go the starting Point chances are it's going to be visited before location B or Z for that matter. Secondly the encounters appearing in each terrain can also be used as a metagame indicator of the challenge level in each terrain/region - as well as the metagame hint in actually announcing the challenge level of each encounter

But on the whole, in a sandbox you have tO accept that some lvl17 PCs may wander into you xvart sauna and slaughter the sweaty little blighters

[Dorateen]

I have just begun working on a submission for this project, which will be a level 9 area, using the RWS Deep Chasms/Deep Sewers tile set.

This is something we can talk about as more plot details emerge, but I would like the objective of this dungeoon to be a little knowledge about how to thwart the Tarrasque, rather than any items that would be necesssary. I'm not expecting the whole information dump about what the party needs to do to accomplish this task, but a little hint about what would be required. It should be completely optional, so players are free to skip one of Dorateen's old school dungeon delving adventures.

Also, I would like to design an encounter with these Eldritch Druid Elf people. I am interested in learning if there will be custom outfits made for their order, anything necessary to be consistent with appearances of them in other modules.

And, yes, what Wyrin said about the realities of sandbox play. And slaughtering xvarts.

Harumph!

Modifié par Dorateen, 28 février 2011 - 03:34 .

[Eguintir Eligard]

So were going with OLM xp even tho its been outvoted so far? I dont disagree that some players will out level dungeons or be under level w hen they show up. I consider that fun and enjoyable (let people access areas they will get slaughtered in add some realism). But OLM xp really exacerbates the whole thing. Another option is making it really squatty (set xp scale to 1, etc). Its a way to say yes you can grind out 10 fights if you WANT but you could just enter the nexta sub area and its more sensicle.

PS the fourms issue: why cant we just open a "project" on these forums and use that as the forum? We dont need to go anywhere else for that. Me and Shaugn have already sucessfully useed such a forum for our campaign testers. Its free of course and can be locked for access and you can have multiple topics just like here.

Modifié par Eguintir Eligard, 28 février 2011 - 03:31 .

[_Knightmare_]

About the NPC difficulty thing:

I had a similar thought process with my own module where it is sort of "sandbox" and the player could really go anywhere at any level. So I made a few script that auto-level up the spawned creatures and equips them based off their new level. As it stands now, the NPCs are leveled up to within 50% - 75% of the main PC's level, but I could tweak those scripts to be any level range the group here might think better. Currently there is no maximum the creaqtures can be leveled up to (except the 75% of PC's level), so if the player is 20th level for example, you might have 15th level kobolds spawning in. I could also add a max. level they could be capped at which the module designer could set as a variable on the creature blueprint. For example, they could say kobolds can only level up to 5th max, no matter what level the player is.

The drawback here is that you would have to make custom blueprints of every creature with the new scripts attached to them. But of course, once somebody made a specific blueprint, perhaps they could upload that to some repository where other builders could then just download it and add it in to their module.

Let me know if something like this would be useful here. The scripts are already written (for the most part) and would just need to be tweaked to the specifics of what the group wants here. So, let me know if you guys want them and also what tweaks you want within them.

Also, send me a group/project invite please.

Modifié par _Knightmare_, 28 février 2011 - 03:55 .

[_Knightmare_]

Got the Friend Request and accepted.

The level-up scripts are just an option, no problem at all if people don't want them - or perhaps just reserve them for "Boss" encounters. Its all up to the group here.

Let me know what you'll need for the Army scripts. I originally built them for my own module so some things are "hardcoded." I'll have to revise them a bit to be a little more universal. As it is now, they look for NPCs/creatures of the "Defender" faction only.

The things it does so far:

- Player can add 1 - umlimited number of creatures into a single "squad"
- Can add squad members individually or in a batch (all applicable NPCs nearby the player)
- Disband a group
- Can have up to 4 individual squads, creatures can be members of multiple squads
- Each squad can be directed independantly
- Each Squad can be commanded to:
     - Set up an ambush
     - Follow the PC or some designated NPC
     - Attack or defend an area/designated creature
     - Guard/protect the PC or designated NPC
     - Move to a designated location (and wait there until told otherwise)
     - Wait at their current location

Just let me know what it is you're looking for and I'll make the necessary edits.

Modifié par _Knightmare_, 28 février 2011 - 04:13 .

[dunniteowl]

I am NOT a fan of scaled encounters. I think it really defeats the whole purpose. With simple Level Estimations on the entries to each area then Let the Player Beware! And if they feel like walking into a level 3-4 dungeon at level 14, then let them experience the Power! of being Uber Invincible to a bunch of meager little whatevers for whatever that's worth to them. By then, the items and treasure will seem a pittance to them and the satisfaction may or may not be in taking them down without breaking a sweat.

So count me in as a NO on scaled encounter scripts.

Wandering Monsters in the OM. Give XP? Sure, that could work, just make it lower end. I found, in WPM that after a while I was avoiding them not because I couldn't complete the battle (I don't care for that whole grinding thing unless it's my coffee beans) but because they were becoming an intrusive annoyance -- to me.

Eguintir, I understand your point, but I think the wandering encounters should be as close to stock (or WPM) as possible.

Some folks are going to grind away. No matter what you do, they'll find a method. Others, such as myself, might feel inclined to wander the map in an area and hope I can fight a few wandering encounters so I can adventure in the module area that is rated too high for my party or has proven to be beyond my ability. And of course, in WPM, that was a mixed bag. There were times when the random encounters jacked me up so badly I was forced to limp back to the camp (hoping I could make it) and rest up, heal and re-outfit.

There are way too many playing styles to attempt to cater for and I think keeping this simple does really provide the players with the options they are most familiar with. I limit my encounters during play by avoidance. If I can't seem to do that, then I consider, "What am I missing here?" There are times when I am looking for a fight, as long as I can handle it, because I need just a little bit more experience to level and I need to level my party before I can hit that next area.

Let the player choose how they deal with it and let's focus on making the modules in a cooperative manner without niggling over all these little details. It allows us to focus on the modules themselves, I think. In your areas, you could opt to do whatever you think is best within the overall guidelines, but the real issue becomes one of commonality of design. If we throw TOO MANY different methods and techniques (mechanics-wise) at the players, I think that will go a lot further to disenchantment than using an overall simplified, though possibly tweaked, standard SoZ encounter and OM wandering monster system.

We can discuss this in more detail in the Project page.

Oh, as to that, the project is here in the BSN and you should be getting a Friend Request and an Invite to that. Or you can do like me and view CWs profile page, click the link and Join, then await Approval, because CW wasn't fast enough for you.

dunniteowl

[Eguintir Eligard]

Ya dont want to scale encounters. Whenever you do that you lose the precision you set out for. Not to mention that most people probably design their enounters with an atmosphere that suits the level. I expect a slightly different atmosphere at level 20 than level 2. Scaled up hella kobolds may be god like but not that suitable for level 15.

[The Fred]

About no XP for OM encounters and things:

I completely see the worry about balancing, however, I would go against removing XP from OM encounters. There are a couple of reasons for this:
1) Why should killing guys in a dungeon give me XP, gold, etc when killing them on the OM doesn't?
2) Balancing dungeons properly is not going to happen in a non-linear game, anyway. We can give people a rough path but, as Wyrin said, in this style of game you can go anywhere anytime.
3) Unless we make sure to balance all our dungeons really well, some people might need to "grind" a little on the OM to achieve the level they need to take on a certain dungeon. OM encounters can act as a filler and buffer in this way.
Possibly we could scale the XP on the OM to be less, but rigourously controlling the level progression is no fun and it has the side effect that, for example, people can't use infinite monster spawns, etc.

Obviously things will need to be balanced in terms of not giving a L2 character a +5 sword of demon'sbane since then the later, high-level dungeon could easily be completed by such a character, giving them XP that they don't really "deserve".

By the same ticket, scaling encounters dynamically doesn't make much sense - that goblin cave is meant to be a goblin cave however many other dungeons you've run through already. That said, there's no reason one couldn't implement partial scaling on a case-by-case basis, e.g. increasing the number of monsters or the ratio of goblin elites to goblin grunts. This could even make RP sense in certain instances - e.g. your enemies have gained intelligence on you or your reputation preceeds you and so they hire more merceneries, etc.

[kamal_]

Just put an EL on the dungeons and be done with it. If someone wants to go somewhere outside their level, they'll know they are.

[MokahTGS]

 As far as OM Exp:  I do not care either way, but I think trying to balance the areas is a lost cause...this is a sandbox, not a linear SP game.  Authors should focus on story, not gameplay balance.  My lvl 18 characters will have just as good a time running through your kobold caves as my lvl 1 characters if there is a story attached.

Centaur Bridge will be designed as a dungeon delving adventure where the earlier levels are easier than the lower levels.  The difficulty curve goes up the deeper you go.  What level range?  Don't know really...just harder as you go deeper...wait, did that sound dirty to anyone else?

At any rate, I'm not worrying too much about balance, and worrying more on the adventure part.  Here's what I do know:  An experienced, financially sponsored  adventure group got thier arse handed to them as a hat three years earlier...lower level characters have been warned.

[Hellfire_RWS]

MokahTGS wrote...
...just harder as you go deeper...wait, did that sound dirty to anyone else?

Yes, Yes it did.

[Quixal]

I am just a player so take my opinion for what it is worth but I wouldn't worry about balance past a point. As has been said, this is a sandbox. Also, I dislike livel matching. I prefer an uneven difficulty. The only exception to this is that I like my end fights to always be brutal. Mr. T should ensure that one.

MokahTGS wrote...
An experienced, financially sponsored  adventure group got thier arse handed to them as a hat three years earlier...lower level characters have been warned.

I take this as confirmation that there will be some nice adventuring gear just lying in a hallway somewhere amidst some bones.

Or a band of extremely well equiped kobolds.

[MokahTGS]

I take this as confirmation that there will be some nice adventuring gear just lying in a hallway somewhere amidst some bones.

Or a band of extremely well equiped kobolds.

Oh that is a great idea...having some lower level monster running around with gear they found on the previous adventurers...

[Shaughn78]

I would suggest no scale encounters. With the overland map wandering monster difficulty areas can be created and variables can be used to deactive tougher/weaker encounters in game. The creature wandering around above ground should give you an idea of what you will be faced with once you decend. If you're barely surriving the overland map it's only going to get tougher heading into that cave.
XP should be awarded for defeating the wandering creatures. it will be a bit of a safety net for us should a small gap show up in our level progression.
With that I think we should modify the scripts so there are nowhere near the creatures that where in SOZ.

[Kaldor Silverwand]

I have to fond memories from BG and BG2 that seem appropriate to mention.

In BG Jaheira lacked a decent weapon for much of the early part of the game. Basically your only choice for her was a club. But in the ToSC expansion they added an area where there was a decent magic scimitar that she could use. The trick was that that area was designed for a high level party. So my low level party would travel there and then by using invisibility potions I would try to sneak one character into the place, grab the scimitar, and get out alive. It was a challenge and much fun. Later when my group was more high-leveled we would go back and play the area.

In BG2 there was a group that had the katana Celestial Fury. A wonderful weapon, and one that was well worth getting as soon as you had a character capable of wielding it. Again though, that party was very tough and intended for a late in the game challenge. Trying to get the sword from them and survive at a much lower level was far more fun than going in at a high level.

So, in short, I am also against automatic scaling of encounters. The one exception I would consider would be the final boss, and I would only consider making it tougher.

Regards

[Kaldor Silverwand]

For the OLM I would suggest that higher level areas should also have higher level encounters near them. Great treasure should always be difficult to get, otherwise someone else would have already gotten to it.

Regards

[WyrinDnjargo]

The issue with XP from encounters on the OLM is not so much from the killing monsters but the bonus you are given by the script for completing the encounter. IIRC I played with halving this and dividing by 10 as it is pretty huge as default. I'd say stick with encounter XP but tone this element down.