258 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

BobSmith101 wrote...

JasonShepard wrote...

Not necessarily, but this isn't really the place to talk about that. We've covered it on the A/K DLC thread.

In short - cutscenes, dialogue, reactions would all (ideally) be different. The context of each would be the same, but it's two different characters in the same situation.

As for the mission - which makes up most of the DLC - no real reason to change environments, mission structure, anything like that.

The main time-sink would be making sure that they both worked as squadmates for the DLC, since they'd have different powers. But that would take up development time, and yes, money, but not too much DLC memory.

Are they more awkward to work around dev-wise? Yes. Are they too difficult to handle? That's for Bioware to decide. Would we like to have them back? That's for us to decide. And personally - yes, I would like Ashley and Kaidan to make a return.

You must be really desperate if you want the Horizon clones back.

They weren't clones until the writers of Bioware thought it would be a good idea to give two seperate individuals virtually identical dialogue.

For anyone not a "fan" that would be unacceptable. Not only would they use more money making it, in the end all they would create what was a "fan piece".

Like LOTSB?  How many non-Liara fans were there?  Especially with those disappointed by her attitude on Illium?  VS lines affecting the shortness or length the VS of this hypothetical DLC would depend on how many lines they had.  I highly doubt it would affect the shooting aspect.  And let's face it, that dominates the games.

Other obvious stuff like the cost of 2 VA's etc.

So, one VO extra.

[Hanar Shakespeare]

Ashley is a xenophobic, racist. There's no doubt about that.

I don't have much of a problem with Kaidan as my Shephard is a lesbian, but Ashley I cannot stand.

[Interactive Civilian]

iakus wrote...

But Ashley is not racist.  She's suspicious, cynical, independant.  But not racist.

Ashley while walking around the Presidium: "I can hardly tell the aliens from the animals."

Nope. That's not racist at all. <_<

[AdmiralCheez]

The only Mass Effect character I can really bring myself to hate on with all my being is Trollbringer. Ash and Kaidan are okay in my books--they don't stand out much, but that's because Bioware made them incredibly human. Sure, they're towards the bottom when I list which squadmates I like the most (with Liara occupying the lowest tier, but that's mostly due to the worst of her fans and Bioware's obsession with making her the Best Character Evurr), but that doesn't change the fact that they're well-written.

Apart from Horizon. If Bioware wrote that scene with the intention of pissing me off, bra-f*cking-vo.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 22 février 2011 - 12:30 .

[Sylvianus]

@ JasonShepard

Why are you trying to debate ? ^^

Do you read the comments, they do not care whatever you say, let it flow. Seriously, this topic is not very important. That people express themselves and that's all, but try to avoid another unnecessary debate.

What is important in the coming days, it's not their opinions, what matters is how Bioware will treat these characters so deep in M1.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 22 février 2011 - 12:36 .

[Dean_the_Young]

To OP:



Because Ash and Kaiden did to the player what most of the players wish they had been able to do to Cerberus.







To JasonShepard:



Nonsense, my good Brit! The American government has your best interests at heart! That's why we have an eye out for you, and an eye on you, via our request for our good friend the British government to install more security cameras!

[Dean_the_Young]

Interactive Civilian wrote...

iakus wrote...

But Ashley is not racist.  She's suspicious, cynical, independant.  But not racist.

Ashley while walking around the Presidium: "I can hardly tell the aliens from the animals."

Nope. That's not racist at all. <_<

When the difference between an alien animal and a sentient alien is not linked with appearance?

No, not really. She's not calling the aliens (you know, the sentient ones) animals. She's saying she has a hard time telling alien aliens (smart) from animals (of any type) by sight alone.

[Iakus]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

To OP:

Because Ash and Kaiden did to the player what most of the players wish they had been able to do to Cerberus.

That is actually a very good  comparison

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Virmire Corpsemist.



A character dies? Indicates a struggle. People struggle for rewarding things. A character is trapped on top of a nuclear bomb and survives? That's a fairy tale. Fairy tales are boring.



So when most people see posts about turning the Virmire Corpsemist into the Virmire Survivor... they see posts about turning Mass Effect in Fairy Tale Effect. That annoys the crap out of most people.

[KenKenpachi]

Technically Racisim deals with races in ones species, the proper term would be xenophobic. Which is understandable from a stand point where as racisim really isn't.

mothertongue wrote...



Wasn't Ashley crapping on about loving god and not trusting alien races in ME1? Then there were the logs @ Normandy crash site. Racist, insular, belief-oriented imho. Perfect soldier

I take offense at this, I mean lets all be trusting of everything and everyone cause no one has ever wanted to stab someone in the back for ones own gain, and scratch any type of religion cause god forbid we all don't become cynical party animals, as to racisim, have you ever known anyone in a combat arm? Color don't mean **** when the bullets are flying, and at times having faith in something is all that keeps some of them going. Because the modern cosmopolitan that will shake your hand and call you a number of bad things and try and do anything to harm you behind your back as they won't to your face is soooo much better.

[Iakus]

Interactive Civilian wrote...

iakus wrote...

But Ashley is not racist.  She's suspicious, cynical, independant.  But not racist.

Ashley while walking around the Presidium: "I can hardly tell the aliens from the animals."

Nope. That's not racist at all. <_<

That is apparantly a bug.  She was only supposed to say that around the Keepers

[Xilizhra]

Quick nitpick: there's no evidence that someone not being religious turns people into cynical party animals.

[Shadow_Soul]

Ash isn't racist.

On topic: I like the VS. I've always hated Virmire because I have to kill one of them off. Both Ashley and Kaidan are great characters and I'd like to have been able to save them both. However, the hate is probably because of Horizon and some of the dialog, or people who dislike human sqauddies. People hate for some reason or another.
3 words, OP: Haters gonna hate.

Modifié par Shadow_Soul, 22 février 2011 - 12:58 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Thane and Liara (probably) are religious as well. In fact Thane has a more in depth conversation about his beliefs than Ashley ever did. But apparently people are only offended by Ashley mentioning that she has a fairly unspecific belief in God a few times in the entire game.

Also Wrex and Garrus demonstrate more racial prejudice than she ever does because their their peoples' historic animosity. But no, she's the "racist" one for believing that other species would put their own concerns before hers, which for the most part is actually true .

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 22 février 2011 - 01:02 .

[Xilizhra]

Ashley is somewhat speciesist. It doesn't make her hateful, militant, evil or anything else of that nature.

[jeweledleah]

why do people hate Virmire survivors? they are human and not a cool aliens. they don't worship at Shepard's altar. like its been mentioned before - they say big giant FU to Cerberus and to Shepard for thinking that they'll just drop whatever their are doing and go worship on Shepard's altar despite shepard giving no reasonable explanation for working with organization they spent so much time undermining 2 years ago, not to mention the whole - you disappeared for 2 years, show up acting like everything is ok, very conveniently on a world that's been rumored to be targeted by cerberus, and oh remember Saren? he thought he was not being controlled too, he also thought that he was trying to do good for the rest of the galaxy.

Horizon sucked, yes, because Shepard should have been given a chance to explain and VS should have been given separate lines, but it didn't suck because Ash/Kaidan refused to just fall at Shep's feet.

what else - ah, yes, neither Ash, nor Kaidan need you to save them or help them, they can do it all on their own. both of them have dealt with their issues long before meeting Shepard, so you cannot play a savior and feel like a big and strong all powerful, everyone needs me hero.

their flaws are more real, less Mary Sue. they are actual flaws, not pseudo flaws (that's kind of a flaw, but not really, its either endearing or tragic) like so many ME2 characters, especially aliens suffer from.

people actually do want a fairy tale, a comic book.

and yes, all characters have someone that hate them, sadly. VS are currently on a forefront though, because DLC is coming and there's speculation.desire that it might be based around the, and not everyone wants that. /shrug.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 22 février 2011 - 01:06 .

[Interactive Civilian]

For the record, despite her racism/speciesism, I don't hate Ashley. I actually like her quite a bit. She's usually my VS, and in the case of my maleShep, the LI. And the fact that over the course of the game she grows her world view says a lot in her favor.

iakus wrote...

That is apparantly a bug. She was only supposed to say that around the Keepers

I was not aware of that, and can only base my opinions of Ash on my experiences of her in game. First time I heard her say that, we were still in Udina's office look over the railing.

[edit]Also, for the record, I don't hate Kaiden either. But I can't say I like him as much as Ashley. He's not too interesting to me, and his crush on an uninterested femShep is annoying to get through (I wish there were some way to shut that down early, like the "You're out of line" choice if you are a maleShep with Ashley, so you could just talk normally to him without having to wade through the "getting mixed signals" junk).

Modifié par Interactive Civilian, 22 février 2011 - 01:09 .

[Hanar Shakespeare]

jeweledleah wrote...

why do people hate Virmire survivors? they are human and not a cool aliens. they don't worship at Shepard's altar. like its been mentioned before - they say big giant FU to Cerberus and to Shepard for thinking that they'll just drop whatever their are doing and go worship on Shepard's altar despite shepard giving no reasonable explanation for working with organization they spent so much time undermining 2 years ago, not to mention the whole - you disappeared for 2 years, show up acting like everything is ok, very conveniently on a world that's been rumored to be targeted by cerberus, and oh remember Saren? he thought he was not being controlled too, he also thought that he was trying to do good for the rest of the galaxy.

Horizon sucked, yes, because Shepard should have been given a chance to explain and VS should have been given separate lines, but it didn't suck because Ash/Kaidan refused to just fall at Shep's feet.

what else - ah, yes, neither Ash, nor Kaidan need you to save them or help them, they can do it all on their own. both of them have dealt with their issues long before meeting Shepard, so you cannot play a savior and feel like a big and strong all powerful, everyone needs me hero.

their flaws are more real, less Mary Sue. they are actual flaws, not pseudo flaws (that's kind of a flaw, but not really, its either endearing or tragic) like so many ME2 characters, especially aliens suffer from.

people actually do want a fairy tale, a comic book.

and yes, all characters have someone that hate them, sadly. VS are currently on a forefront though, because DLC is coming and there's speculation.desire that it might be based around the, and not everyone wants that. /shrug.

Wow. Firstly, all of that vitriolic verbiage for a game? Seriously? I have no problem with Kaidan. Ashley is a xenophobe. A trait I find ignorant and distasteful. That is the reason people don't quite care for Ashley. I don't want people worshipping Shephard like some type of deity. That's insane. I would play Black & White if I wanted to be worshipped. Honestly, read through the thread to find why people dislike the characters.

Secondly, the other Virmire survivor, who worked at the colony prior to your estranged crew member's appearance, did not worship Shephard, Yet, I felt the character was great and hilarious. My favorite line in the game is, "So the Alliance gave us a big gun that can't shoot straight. Stupid sons a *******!"

Lastly, no I don't want Mass Effect 3 or any related video game content to be a fairy tale.

[Xilizhra]

what else - ah, yes, neither Ash, nor Kaidan need you to save them or help them, they can do it all on their own. both of them have dealt with their issues long before meeting Shepard, so you cannot play a savior and feel like a big and strong all powerful, everyone needs me hero/

Actually, Ashley does need to be saved on Eden Prime, and needs to again if Shepard is male; if Shepard is female, Kaidan needs to be saved. And then whichever one of them is picked to survive needs to be saved on Virmire. Garrus, in his ME2 recruitment mission, seems to contribute a lot more to his own survival than the VS does on Virmire. As for Tali there... I can't imagine anyone could have beaten a geth army that large unless they were Shepard, and Liara doesn't need much, if any, saving in LotSB, additionally being personally vital to defeating the Shadow Broker. Ashley and Kaidan are very far from having a monopoly on personal strength.

[alperez]

With Ash it was partly down to some people not getting her character in the first place imo. She's not a racist but a combination of at times bad writing and at times people just taking the one or two lines out of context make it seem to some she is.



With Kaiden it was just a real case of Carth syndrome, same va, so a lot of people just assumed he was carth mark 2, again some of this is down to bad writing and some down to people just not getting the character at all.



Then we have the whole horizon thing, which again is nothing to do with characters and more to do with bad writing on biowares part. To make 2 characters so interchangeable as they did was bad enough, to allow those characters express what most people wanted shepard to express was worse but to do all that and not allow shepard to answer in any meaningful way was unforgiveable.



But a lot of the hatred comes from the fact that a lot of fans were annoyed that the vs was given such a miniscule role in me2 and vented about how the game itself was the poorer because of it. So we get people who instead of arguing based on character strength or storyline progression or any of the real reasons why a character should be disliked or hated, instead argue from a viewpoint skewed by how much more they like an me2 character than the vs.



Bioware handled the vs situation so badly from the very begining that to fix it now requires a lot of work, in me2 they showed an unwillingness to do this work and are left in a postion which is all of their own making.

[jeweledleah]

Pushing a curious person out of the way of the beacon is not the same as going for an entire out of the way, mission, not to mention all the soul searching you do with some of the characters. Ash looked pretty capable of taking out those 2 Geth to me as well, you come in and help out, sure but she's been surviving for a fair bit on her own.



Virmire well...I'll give you that, to a point. its not a personal mission, that you're helping out with. Liara grows up in ME2, but in ME1 if you hadn't come along, she would be basically screwed. Garrus, heck I adore Garrus, he's my best bud, but he still needs assistance with personal missions and personal decisions. I don't begrudge him that, but ME1 characters are the only ones you don't make decisions for. (selecting who goes with salarians doesn't count - as their commanding officer it was always your decision - its closer to suicide mission role choices then loyalty quest decisions)



Everyone, absolutely everyone, including Liara, thinks Shepard can do no wrong. except for Ashley and Kaidan. And Ash is not Xenophobe, she works with aliens just fine, she just doesn't trust them. She explains why and its a rational explanation, not to mention - she opens up a lot more, once she gets some experience working with them.



Lastly - the fairytale angle, the comic book angle. people who prefer half naked character in space to armored ones. people who are ok with aliens having certain traits, that humans are not allowed to have..at all, just because they are alien (religion for one). people who are angry that VS didn't just take them on their word and followed along like a puppy on Horizon. just saying.

[Xilizhra]

Everyone, absolutely everyone, including Liara, thinks Shepard can do no wrong. except for Ashley and Kaidan. And Ash is not Xenophobe, she works with aliens just fine, she just doesn't trust them. She explains why and its a rational explanation, not to mention - she opens up a lot more, once she gets some experience working with them.

Loyalty confrontations. Miranda, Jack, Tali and Legion can all mentally turn on Shepard, and Tali can do so just from handing over the evidence to the Admiralty. In addition, Samara states outright that she'll eventually have to kill a Renegade Shepard, Zaeed will be extremely pissed if you save the workers on Zorya... in ME1, Wrex almost tries to kill Shepard, and in ME2, Grunt threatens to if Shepard doesn't find strong enemies. Jack never really ends up befriending Shepard unless you romance her. As for Liara in LotSB, it was written on both sides for a Shepard who was friendly with her, probably because writing in unfriendly dialogue seemed like a waste of time.

Lastly - the fairytale angle, the comic book angle. people who prefer half naked character in space to armored ones. people who are ok with aliens having certain traits, that humans are not allowed to have..at all, just because they are alien (religion for one). people who are angry that VS didn't just take them on their word and followed along like a puppy on Horizon. just saying.

This really doesn't seem fair. I admit that the spacesuits or lack thereof was silly; however, saying that some things are better just because they're alien feels a shade absurd. There's quite a strong Cerberus/TIM fanbase here, Miranda was the most romanced character in ME2... as for the issue of religion, Thane's has no history of bloody warfare/conquest/oppression that we know of. That may be a factor.

[Dean_the_Young]

While technically each Virmire Survivor had to be rescued at least twice (Horizon and, well, Eden Prime), being rescued or helped wasn't a critical part of what passed for their character exposition/development. They were who they were independent of Shepard needing to watch their back, whereas, say, Garrus was as much devined in ME2 by needing Shepard's rescue both initially and in needing Shepard's help in the loyalty. Similar with Tali: rescuing Tali from danger (Geth or political) was the crux of her development as a character. In a game that revolved around saving people from their daddy issues, even Wrex (somewhat), Ash and Kaiden are in that rare category of NOT having life issues that only Shepard can solve.



There's also more than a little to the argument that Ash and Kaiden had realistic, 'real' flaws rather than sympathy-flaws, which often appear as 'flaws' but really just exist to make the character more appealing. (Like, say, Thane's life story as a largely unapologetic murderer... which, instead, comes off as 'cool' and even sympathetic because, though he dismisses his own responsibility, he doesn't want his son to do so.) Or Garrus's flaw of being a 'bad Turian' because he's too passionate. Or Tali being too loyal to fleet and family. Or Liara being 'too innocent and inexperienced.' Or even Mordin's excellently handled, but incredibly not-identifiable with, ethical issues as a war criminal.



Ash and Kaiden don't have presumptions of super-problems, but at the same time their flaws are all the more plausible for their mundanity. Kaiden is a guy who's inclined to sit on his passions and try and be patient about it all, but has a strong undercurrent of anger and impatience. Ash is head-strong and sure, and her cynicism/caution is tinged with ignorance.



I strongly believe that Kaiden and Ashley both were some of the most plausible characters in the franchise, and plausible as in actually identifiable with average people.

[Xilizhra]

Actually, I can't think of any real flaws that Kaidan possessed. Ashley, yes, but many of them were the product of clumsy writing rather than intent. I also think that trying to make them identifiable to average people backfired; this isn't an average life story by any means, and average people trying to save the galaxy in this instance feels sort of out of place. Kaidan and Ashley are seen as... well, they're basically the Alliance marines, and while they're people, they have little place in the story. In addition, they may seem sort of like mundane ties to Shepard's older and less interesting, Spectre-y life. All these may be reasons as to why they're disliked.



Jacob has the same averageness, and ME2's lack of character development, and an incredibly memetic romance line, so he came off the worst.