258 réponses à ce sujet

[Sesshomaru47]

Kaiden is the reason I played ME in the first place. I saw my brother playing, asked is that Carth. yeaaah he grunted and I went woowoo. It's shallow I know. However I liked Kaiden's character, he's a snag.

[Sajuro]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Interactive Civilian wrote...

iakus wrote...

But Ashley is not racist.  She's suspicious, cynical, independant.  But not racist.

Ashley while walking around the Presidium: "I can hardly tell the aliens from the animals."

Nope. That's not racist at all. <_<

When the difference between an alien animal and a sentient alien is not linked with appearance?

No, not really. She's not calling the aliens (you know, the sentient ones) animals. She's saying she has a hard time telling alien aliens (smart) from animals (of any type) by sight alone.

Give her a cheat sheet, the sentients are the bipedal ones, the monotone ones, and the giant pink jelly fish that float.
still seems racist or xenophobic, but only as much as Gardner wondering if Asari eating calarmi would be considered cannibalism

[Dean_the_Young]

There's actually hundreds of sentient species, ranging from bug-colonies to Rachni-bugs to all sorts. Though they don't all get seen in the game, supposedly they exist on the Citadel to some extent.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Actually, I can't think of any real flaws that Kaidan possessed. Ashley, yes, but many of them were the product of clumsy writing rather than intent. I also think that trying to make them identifiable to average people backfired; this isn't an average life story by any means, and average people trying to save the galaxy in this instance feels sort of out of place. Kaidan and Ashley are seen as... well, they're basically the Alliance marines, and while they're people, they have little place in the story. In addition, they may seem sort of like mundane ties to Shepard's older and less interesting, Spectre-y life. All these may be reasons as to why they're disliked.

Jacob has the same averageness, and ME2's lack of character development, and an incredibly memetic romance line, so he came off the worst.

Kaiden's flaw was his underlying temper that he was always either under or overcompensating for. You might like it when he was one way or another, but as a person he wasn't really balanced: a large part of his 'paragon' self is simply over-compensation (and a little bit of self-hating Jew throne in) for his emotional response, while his Renegade is distinctly... undercompensating.

He's like water: either largely flat and seemingly serene, or crashing and foaming, with no real middle ground between the two states. He's a significantly emotional person, and it tends to be either bottled up or unrestrained.



Compared to Jacob, who really didn't have a personality flaw besides responding to Shepard's flirtations with some cheesy pickup lines...

[Quole]

Sajuro wrote...

Because (for me) Virmire was never that big choice, part of me wanted to leave them both if I could since I liked neither one.

agreed.

[didymos1120]

iakus wrote...
They weren't clones until the writers of Bioware thought it would be a good idea to give two seperate individuals virtually identical dialogue.
 

Yeah, well, they've been doing that all along.  See: ME1.

[didymos1120]

Hanar Shakespeare wrote...
Secondly, the other Virmire survivor, who worked at the colony prior to your estranged crew member's appearance...

Wha...huh?  "[O]ther Virmire survivor".  There is no "other".  That guy was just a random colonist.  He was not in ME1 or involved in any of the events of the game in the least.

[Quole]

ADLegend21 wrote...

 Ashley's called a racist for being wary of Wrex and Garrus, yet Tali spouts nothing but Geth hate until Legion shows up (then she actively shoots at him if you bring him to haestrom) yet it's all hail Tali she's teh aethummmmms! they're held to unfair standards.

That didnt make ANY sense at all. EVERYONE hated the geth before legion showed up because no one knew about the `heretics` and the `true geth.` Also, after seeing all her firends die to geth, it would make sense that she would start shooting at a geth thats right infront of her (and she stops when you tell her to). Really, it seems like ur just a Tali hater and desperately trying to make her look bad. Really I dont have a problem if you dislike a  character, but dislike them for the right reasons, not just because other people like them.

[SmokePants]

There is always going to be a following for love interests. They could have made a half-eaten turd sandwich romance-able and there would be people here dreaming of half-human, half-turd sandwich offspring.

[FaargAnNorgnal]

I like the old human squadmates. What I like about Kaidan is his backstory. It is a clever little way to convey a moral lesson; we are more alike than we are different.



I also respect their unwillingness to join Shepard on Horizon. I can understand Garrus being okay with Shepard's alliance with Cerberus but Tali should have been way more resistant if not outright hostile.

[didymos1120]

FaargAnNorgnal wrote...

I can understand Garrus being okay with Shepard's alliance with Cerberus but Tali should have been way more resistant if not outright hostile.

She was outright hostile initially.  Ask Jacob about it.  She was just willing to trust that Shep was right about the Reaper angle.

[Kingthlayer]

My problem with Ashely and Kaiden is that they're like Miranda and Jacob in the way that they're shoved down your throat.  During the debriefing in ME1 they're the only two people that really say anything, the other guys just sit there.

If killing Ashley or Kaiden in a DLC(if it happens) will prevent myself from having another character that is going to be shoved down my throat then I'd gladly kill them off unless I'm doing a play through in which they're my LI and I take them on every mission to hear what they have to say.

[FaargAnNorgnal]

didymos1120 wrote...

She was outright hostile initially.  Ask Jacob about it.  She was just willing to trust that Shep was right about the Reaper angle.

No, she really wasn't. You mention the geth data and she's hunky-dory. She should be more loyal to her people than she is to Shepard.

[Elite Midget]

Simple.

Every ME2 Squaddie can die. No ME2 Squaddie has to survive in every save.

Every save MUST have a VS.

Thus ME2 fans hate the VS because they have a much higher Squaddie chance than any of the ME2 Crew because of their loophole.

[Iakus]

Xilizhra wrote...

what else - ah, yes, neither Ash, nor Kaidan need you to save them or help them, they can do it all on their own. both of them have dealt with their issues long before meeting Shepard, so you cannot play a savior and feel like a big and strong all powerful, everyone needs me hero/

Actually, Ashley does need to be saved on Eden Prime, and needs to again if Shepard is male; if Shepard is female, Kaidan needs to be saved. And then whichever one of them is picked to survive needs to be saved on Virmire. Garrus, in his ME2 recruitment mission, seems to contribute a lot more to his own survival than the VS does on Virmire. As for Tali there... I can't imagine anyone could have beaten a geth army that large unless they were Shepard, and Liara doesn't need much, if any, saving in LotSB, additionally being personally vital to defeating the Shadow Broker. Ashley and Kaidan are very far from having a monopoly on personal strength.

I think the "saving" referes to their emotional baggage.  Yeah, Kaiden had his time in BAat and Ash has her family name blackened by the Alliance.  But they both deal with this on their own.  Neither one asks nor expects any help from Shep, beyond a friendly ear to listen.  If bullets are flying, however, they'll take all the help they can get, just like anyone else

[Iakus]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

While technically each Virmire Survivor had to be rescued at least twice (Horizon and, well, Eden Prime), being rescued or helped wasn't a critical part of what passed for their character exposition/development. They were who they were independent of Shepard needing to watch their back, whereas, say, Garrus was as much devined in ME2 by needing Shepard's rescue both initially and in needing Shepard's help in the loyalty. Similar with Tali: rescuing Tali from danger (Geth or political) was the crux of her development as a character. In a game that revolved around saving people from their daddy issues, even Wrex (somewhat), Ash and Kaiden are in that rare category of NOT having life issues that only Shepard can solve.

There's also more than a little to the argument that Ash and Kaiden had realistic, 'real' flaws rather than sympathy-flaws, which often appear as 'flaws' but really just exist to make the character more appealing. (Like, say, Thane's life story as a largely unapologetic murderer... which, instead, comes off as 'cool' and even sympathetic because, though he dismisses his own responsibility, he doesn't want his son to do so.) Or Garrus's flaw of being a 'bad Turian' because he's too passionate. Or Tali being too loyal to fleet and family. Or Liara being 'too innocent and inexperienced.' Or even Mordin's excellently handled, but incredibly not-identifiable with, ethical issues as a war criminal.

Ash and Kaiden don't have presumptions of super-problems, but at the same time their flaws are all the more plausible for their mundanity. Kaiden is a guy who's inclined to sit on his passions and try and be patient about it all, but has a strong undercurrent of anger and impatience. Ash is head-strong and sure, and her cynicism/caution is tinged with ignorance.

I strongly believe that Kaiden and Ashley both were some of the most plausible characters in the franchise, and plausible as in actually identifiable with average people.

Very well said.

Ash and Kaiden are the most "real" characters in the Mass Effect series.  That's what drew them to me;  ordinary people, extraordinary circumstances. 

I swear if DLC comes out that makes the VS a temporary squaddie I'm choosing Jacob as my third squadmate Just so I can have a "normal" squad one more time.

[jeweledleah]

Quole wrote...

That didnt make ANY sense at all. EVERYONE hated the geth before legion showed up because no one knew about the `heretics` and the `true geth.` Also, after seeing all her firends die to geth, it would make sense that she would start shooting at a geth thats right infront of her (and she stops when you tell her to). Really, it seems like ur just a Tali hater and desperately trying to make her look bad. Really I dont have a problem if you dislike a  character, but dislike them for the right reasons, not just because other people like them.

and guess what?  Ash dislikes Turians becasue her grandfather fought them in a war and lost the entire family's good name becasue he was forced to surender or be responcible for countless human deaths due to Turians orbitaly bombarding the human colony.  and you know what she says when you talk to her about it?  "if you say kiss a Turian, I'll ask - which cheek"  she works well with Garrus and Wrex and Liara and Tali.  She doesn't innitialy trust them, Normandy being a prototype alliance military vessel and all, but she defers to Shepards judgement.  And she only shoots Wrex when you either ask her to, or if you are having trouble talkig him down and she doesn't do it becasue he's a krogan (if you talk to Salarians and the rest of your crew (aliens included)  they all express their unease about Wrex's behavior) - she does it becasue she see's her commanding officer in danger.

very very similar to Tali who even after you talk her down, still doesn't like or trust legion, she's just willing not to shoot him..for now.

P.S.  also what iakus and Dean-the-young said more eloquently then I could.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 22 février 2011 - 04:32 .

[Quole]

jeweledleah wrote...

Quole wrote...

That didnt make ANY sense at all. EVERYONE hated the geth before legion showed up because no one knew about the `heretics` and the `true geth.` Also, after seeing all her firends die to geth, it would make sense that she would start shooting at a geth thats right infront of her (and she stops when you tell her to). Really, it seems like ur just a Tali hater and desperately trying to make her look bad. Really I dont have a problem if you dislike a  character, but dislike them for the right reasons, not just because other people like them.

and guess what?  Ash dislikes Turians becasue her grandfather fought them in a war and lost the entire family's good name becasue he was forced to surender or be responcible for countless human deaths due to Turians orbitaly bombarding the human colony.  and you know what she says when you talk to her about it?  "if you say kiss a Turian, I'll ask - which cheek"  she works well with Garrus and Wrex and Liara and Tali.  She doesn't innitialy trust them, Normandy being a prototype alliance military vessel and all, but she defers to Shepards judgement.  And she only shoots Wrex when you either ask her to, or if you are having trouble talkig him down and she doesn't do it becasue he's a krogan (if you talk to Salarians and the rest of your crew (aliens included)  they all express their unease about Wrex's behavior) - she does it becasue she see's her commanding officer in danger.

very very similar to Tali who even after you talk her down, still doesn't like or trust legion, she's just willing not to shoot him..for now.

P.S.  also what iakus and Dean-the-young said more eloquently then I could.

 Whats your point? I NEVER said Ashley was racist. The whole point of what I said was just show you that Tali`s mistrust of Geth was completely justified.
And Tali`s mistrust of Legion is a lot more justified than Ashley`s mistrust of Turians, Krogans, etc.. (you know... how the geth almost caused the Quarian`s extinction, drove them from their home world, forced them to live in suits, and caused the entire galaxy to resent them)... Really, if your trying to start an argument, your doing a bad job of it.

Modifié par Quole, 22 février 2011 - 04:58 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

I liked Ash, so no complaints here. Sure she didn't trust aliens (verging on a bit racist, but I saw it as more of a "moment" than a total belief) with their best stuff but that's mostly just thinking militarily (showing your best hand to a group that could turn from friend to foe at the bat of an eye is something you shy away from).

[didymos1120]

FaargAnNorgnal wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

She was outright hostile initially.  Ask Jacob about it.  She was just willing to trust that Shep was right about the Reaper angle.

No, she really wasn't. You mention the geth data and she's hunky-dory. She should be more loyal to her people than she is to Shepard.

No, she is...when she finally joins up with you.  No, she's not hostile towards Shep.  She IS hostile towards Cerberus.

[jeweledleah]

Quole wrote...


 Whats your point? I NEVER said Ashley was racist. The whole point of what I said was just show you that Tali`s mistrust of Geth was completely justified.
And Tali`s mistrust of Legion is a lot more justified than Ashley`s mistrust of Turians, Krogans, etc.. (you know... how the geth almost caused the Quarian`s extinction, drove them from their home world, forced them to live in suits, and caused the entire galaxy to resent them)... Really, if your trying to start an argument, your doing a bad job of it.

not trying to start an argument but rather trying to show that what's good for the goose is good for the gander.  and speaking of those geth and their creators, who started a war in a first place, after illegaly and recklessly creating geth in a first place...yeah...:/

Tali has no more justification then Ash does.  they both have their reasons and those reasons are valid for both, however, Tali's reasons are not better then Ash's (all she has to go on is stories told by elders and later on some geth she fought...and all Ash has to go on is family stories and later on some merc aliens she fought),  both of them just needed to see aliens in question as individuals rather then us and them sort of thing, except Tali gets a pass, and Ash doesn't.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 22 février 2011 - 05:31 .

[Interactive Civilian]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Interactive Civilian wrote...

iakus wrote...

But Ashley is not racist.  She's suspicious, cynical, independant.  But not racist.

Ashley while walking around the Presidium: "I can hardly tell the aliens from the animals."

Nope. That's not racist at all. <_<

When the difference between an alien animal and a sentient alien is not linked with appearance?

No, not really. She's not calling the aliens (you know, the sentient ones) animals. She's saying she has a hard time telling alien aliens (smart) from animals (of any type) by sight alone.

Riiiiggghhhhtt.

Are you sure that it's not that she's actually saying she can't tell the difference between the aliens and the humans, since technically speaking, unless they imported other Earth organisms that are part of a certain metazoan sub-group of the Eukarya domain of terrestrial life to the Citadel, humans are the ONLY animals on the Citadel?

Granted, here in our late 20th/early 21st century language and culture we only have one sentient species that we are certain about to use for comparison, but when has the comparison of a sentient to an (other) animal NOT been considered somewhat derogatory?



Look. I'm not saying she's like those Terra Firma idiots or Cerberus (yes, I said it) or the KKK or something. But, mainly due to ignorance from lack of exposure and prejudice from her family history, she starts the game off as racist/speciesist. It seems to me that over the course of the game, as she is exposed to working with aliens, her world view grows, and as such her prejudice and ignorance shrink or disappear, or at least get a proper introspective assessment. However, I don't think this ever comes out in dialog, so we can only infer it from her actions as squadmate working with aliens (and then it is very open to interpretation: she's just following orders, the player only plays her with kaiden as a squadmate, etc.).

The way the game has been made, it seems that most, if not all, of the characters have a certain degree of freedom of interpretation which will largely be due to the player's perspective, prejudices, and role-playing. In light of that, allow me to restate my claim: In my own particular Mass Effect universe, with the characters I've created, and my interpretation of the characters' actions, Ashley starts off has highly prejudiced and racist, and she grows up over the course of the game as direct experience trumps her ignorance and prejudices. YMMV.


Back, completely on topic, I don't hate the VS survivor, whichever of the two it may be. :innocent:

Modifié par Interactive Civilian, 22 février 2011 - 05:37 .

[DPSSOC]

OP some people just don't like some characters and people generally feel more comfortable expressing hate than affection in public.  Part of the hate probably comes from Horizon but it's not like these are two characters that are impossible to hate.

[Quole]

jeweledleah wrote...

Quole wrote...


 Whats your point? I NEVER said Ashley was racist. The whole point of what I said was just show you that Tali`s mistrust of Geth was completely justified.
And Tali`s mistrust of Legion is a lot more justified than Ashley`s mistrust of Turians, Krogans, etc.. (you know... how the geth almost caused the Quarian`s extinction, drove them from their home world, forced them to live in suits, and caused the entire galaxy to resent them)... Really, if your trying to start an argument, your doing a bad job of it.

not trying to start an argument but rather trying to show that what's good for the goose is good for the gander.  and speaking of those geth and their creators, who started a war in a first place, after illegaly and recklessly creating geth in a first place...yeah...:/

Tali has no more justification then Ash does.  they both have their reasons and those reasons are valid for both, however, Tali's reasons are not better then Ash's (all she has to go on is stories told by elders and later on some geth she fought...and all Ash has to go on is family stories and later on some merc aliens she fought),  both of them just needed to see aliens in question as individuals rather then us and them sort of thing, except Tali gets a pass, and Ash doesn't.

Well considering the lifestyle in which Quarians must live due to the Geth, yes I would say Tali is more justified. Growing up in an evironment where quarians are told their entire lives about why they should hate the Geth would certainly cloud their judgement and so her hatred of the Geth makes a lot more sense (again, this is punctuated by the fact that most of Tali`s friends are killed by the Geth). Also, I believe the geth did not start out as true AIs, they unexpectedly became sapient. So the current generation of Quarians have to suffer from their ansestors mistake.  Not trying to prove whos right one way or another (the Geth or the Quarians) but certainly Tali`s motives regarding the Geth make a lot more sense than Ashleys motives regarding everyone else (not that Ashley`s motives dont make sense at all).

I agree that Ashley gets an unesessarily bad rep because of this but if ANY squadmate should be justified in hating a certain group of people it would be Tali and the Geth.