258 réponses à ce sujet

[Lunatic LK47]

jeweledleah wrote...
they weren't protecting their career on Horizon.  they were protecting their principles, and they probably felt like they were protecting humanity as well.  both Ashley and Kaidan discuss your decisions with you.  they tell you that they will obey your orders and that they need to trust that you're doing the right thing, but they still say if they feel like whatever you're doing might not be the best decisions.  they offer input.

Fine, I can buy it, but how the scene played out felt like Ash/Kaidan conveniently forgot about the Reapers just because the writing said so. A simple "We have our own problems to deal with and can't help you with the Reapers" would have been fine for me.

on Horizon, you're not only do not command them anymore, you're working with the terrorist organization.  they haven't seen you in years, they now have a reason to suspect that you faked your death, why didn't you contact alliance exactly and why the heck aren't you explaining anything and instead just asking them to trust you?
do they know you were being stonewalled?  did you tell them that?

writers messed up.  yes.  but they messed up shepard more then VS, waaay more.

We can definitely agree on is Horizon could have been done a whole lot better, especially with Shepard, but I just felt the entire scene as a whole could have been written in a more plausible way instead of the current product's "We'll make it 50-50 with realism and idiot ball"

[JediNg]

Abispa wrote...

Hmm. Since I don't know what has been printed in all the Mass Effect novels and comics, I only have the video games themselves to let me know what is "normal" or not in the Mass Effect universe.
I get the feeling that having someone RAISED FROM THE DEAD is an incredibly rare occurrence in the ME universe. There are some hints that it may be possible to clone someone or cybernetically restore somebody, but a clone is just a "twin" lacking the original's experiences and must be reeducated similar to the Krogan tank bred, and a cyborg can have a "control chip" installed (according to Miranda). Given that, the VS and Liara (who had background information on Shepard rebuilding) are the only people in the whole game who have a realistic reaction to their friend being back from the dead.
And how did he come back? HE WAS RESURRECTED BY THE ORGANIZATION THAT RAN INSANE BIOLOGICAL EXPERIMENTS AND TRIED TO KILL YOU all through ME1. Oh, and they have a history of killing and experimenting on Alliance soldiers.
Part of the problem is Bioware being inconsistent and changing the premise of Cerberus between the two games. In the first game Kuhoku had to go rogue and dig up information on some dark, sinister black ops organization called "Cerberus" that no one had ever heard about. In ME2, Cerberus is kind of like the Klu Klux Klan, separate from "normal" society yet out in the open. Even though they're avowed enemies of the council, supposedly a "capital offense," an advanced warship with their markings can still dock at the Citadel. Mercenary groups and security on alien worlds like Illium and Omega see Miranda and Jacob in uniform and say, "Oh, look, some Cerberus guys. *Yawn*." The VS are written like they're the only ones who remember the ME1 Cerberus, the rest of the crew act like they only know the ME2 Cerberus, and Anderson uncomfortably jumps back and forth between the two.

You know at first, I thought cool.  It's been two years, you (Shepard) revealed a lot of Cerberus activities so they're likely not as clandestine now.  But you make some good points when you dock at stations and C-Sec just yawns at the fact that your vessel has the Cerberus insignia on it.  Not to mention even Jack recognizes the insignia (not sure when she was last out of jail or last saw Cerberus either).

[JediNg]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...
they weren't protecting their career on Horizon.  they were protecting their principles, and they probably felt like they were protecting humanity as well.  both Ashley and Kaidan discuss your decisions with you.  they tell you that they will obey your orders and that they need to trust that you're doing the right thing, but they still say if they feel like whatever you're doing might not be the best decisions.  they offer input.

Fine, I can buy it, but how the scene played out felt like Ash/Kaidan conveniently forgot about the Reapers just because the writing said so. A simple "We have our own problems to deal with and can't help you with the Reapers" would have been fine for me.

on Horizon, you're not only do not command them anymore, you're working with the terrorist organization.  they haven't seen you in years, they now have a reason to suspect that you faked your death, why didn't you contact alliance exactly and why the heck aren't you explaining anything and instead just asking them to trust you?
do they know you were being stonewalled?  did you tell them that?

writers messed up.  yes.  but they messed up shepard more then VS, waaay more.

We can definitely agree on is Horizon could have been done a whole lot better, especially with Shepard, but I just felt the entire scene as a whole could have been written in a more plausible way instead of the current product's "We'll make it 50-50 with realism and idiot ball"

Yeah.  Like I said, the dialogue was written in such a way where no matter which dialogue options you pick, you could be convincingly (as far as the in game dialogue in that scene goes) dismissed as some sort of traitor.  Cept you know you're not and you don't really get the option of explaining, so it plays out like they just kinda like, "I'm better than you because I'm not Cerberus and your'e a traitor good luck commander bye," instantly sparking fires of rage.

Plus Dr. Chakwas is 'with' Cerberus, Joker too, and you don't get to bring them up at all (I don't like that Chakwas has very little likes in both ME and ME2)

[lawp79]

Honestly this argument has been going on and on and on since the release of the first game. Ashley is not racist she just doesnt trust aliens and given her family history who can blame her? If people bothered to talk to her beyond 2 conversations they would realise that, they would also realise that her opinions soften. She actively calls out the leader of Terra Firma because they are supported by racist humans! Ironically alot of the people (not all) that hate Ashley "because she is a racist" love Tali who openly supports the mass genocide of the Geth double standard much?

This argument tires me out........

As for Horizon? Yeah I was pissed, not at Ash but at Shepards lame arsed responces and at the lazy writing.

Modifié par lawp79, 22 février 2011 - 08:38 .

[Haeretiker]

Sajuro wrote...

Because (for me) Virmire was never that big choice, part of me wanted to leave them both if I could since I liked neither one.

This. 

[jeweledleah]

looked up the first vid I could find



you mention reapers once, you offer no proof. writing sucked and it should have, could have been handled better, on both sides. but honestly, with the lack of information Shepard is offering, I'm more inclined to blame the writing on Shepard's side and not VS.

most if not all of us, would have been satisfied with "we cannot go with you right now, because of my duties, etc" I guess they wanted to give a surface reason for most people to think - damn, this dude/chick don't like me anymore - time to try out new romantic interests and since they treated me "badly" I feel justified. blah.

edited to add - seriously good points there about cerberus being handled weridly between 2 games.

Dr Chakwas and Joker though - Joker's loyalty was always to flying and Dr...she's well...I was weirded out that she joined Cerberus even if she says she's working for Shepard and not them :/

Modifié par jeweledleah, 22 février 2011 - 08:41 .

[uberdowzen]

This is sort of semi off topic, but am I the only one who thought Horizon was actually really good? You're meant to hate what happens there, it one of the best emotional moments in the game.

[Interactive Civilian]

jeweledleah wrote...

Dr Chakwas and Joker though - Joker's loyalty was always to flying and Dr...she's well...I was weirded out that she joined Cerberus even if she says she's working for Shepard and not them :/

After having drinks with her, it was my impression that she joined Cerberus because of Joker. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, though. [edit] That is, I believe her when she states her loyalty to Shepard, but her initial joining of Cerberus was to take care of and not get split up from Joker as he joined them, rather than joining out of any kind of agreement with what Cerberus represents.

Modifié par Interactive Civilian, 22 février 2011 - 08:49 .

[Never]

uberdowzen wrote...

This is sort of semi off topic, but am I the only one who thought Horizon was actually really good? You're meant to hate what happens there, it one of the best emotional moments in the game.

I hated it at first, and I still get that feeling of dread when I land, but I've come to appreciate it.

[JediNg]

Interactive Civilian wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

Dr Chakwas and Joker though - Joker's loyalty was always to flying and Dr...she's well...I was weirded out that she joined Cerberus even if she says she's working for Shepard and not them :/

After having drinks with her, it was my impression that she joined Cerberus because of Joker. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, though. [edit] That is, I believe her when she states her loyalty to Shepard, but her initial joining of Cerberus was take care of and not get split up from Joker as he joined them, rather than joining out of any kind of agreement with what Cerberus represents.

I thought it was that and the chance to work with Shepard again.  Although how she'd know they were rebuilding him/her is a mystery to me, unless she gets recruited like the day you wake up, or their security was really good with leaks.  But that's speculative on my part.

[Interactive Civilian]

JediNg wrote...

I thought it was that and the chance to work with Shepard again.  Although how she'd know they were rebuilding him/her is a mystery to me, unless she gets recruited like the day you wake up, or their security was really good with leaks.  But that's speculative on my part.

Yeah. I'd considered that. It is a possibility that Cerberus recruited her on the promise that they were working to bring Shepard back, or something like that, but as it's never stated, it is, as you say, speculative. So I just stuck with what was said in game.

[JediNg]

Interactive Civilian wrote...

JediNg wrote...

I thought it was that and the chance to work with Shepard again.  Although how she'd know they were rebuilding him/her is a mystery to me, unless she gets recruited like the day you wake up, or their security was really good with leaks.  But that's speculative on my part.

Yeah. I'd considered that. It is a possibility that Cerberus recruited her on the promise that they were working to bring Shepard back, or something like that, but as it's never stated, it is, as you say, speculative. So I just stuck with what was said in game.

[AkiKishi]

iakus wrote...

Other obvious stuff like the cost of 2 VA's etc.

So, one VO extra.

Maybe not so obvious....
Ok, try this one. Imagine LotSB, then every time you see Liara imagine needing to put Wrex in her place. If that does not give you an idea of the ammount of extra work, nothing will.

[Wulfram]

jeweledleah wrote...

oh and that mutiny you committed in ME1? do you remember who took responsibility for it? who orchestrated the whole thing? oh yes, captain Anderson, a superior officer to both of you.

Captain Anderson doesn't outrank Council Spectre Shepard

[Dean_the_Young]

didymos1120 wrote...

snakeboy86 wrote...

i hate the fact that they both think shepard drank from the cerberus cool aid after they killed that admiral and helped shep destroy alot of there projects

It's more that they think Cerberus might have done something mad-sciencey to Shepard.

Which, when you think about it, Cerberus really did.

And the only reason you have to believe you aren't under the influence of a control chip is the testimony of a high-ranking Cerberus operative who played with your brain that she didn't. Which is a lot like taking a kleptomaniac's word that he hasn't taken anything.

If Shepard were under effective Cerberus control, Shepard wouldn't admit to being under Cerberus control.

[Dean_the_Young]

Wulfram wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

oh and that mutiny you committed in ME1? do you remember who took responsibility for it? who orchestrated the whole thing? oh yes, captain Anderson, a superior officer to both of you.

Captain Anderson doesn't outrank Council Spectre Shepard

He kinda does.

Spectre privileges are outside of the chain of command, but at the time Shepard pretty much lost his Spectre privileges because he was countering Council intent. Shepard's 'hard' authority comes from being an Alliance officer... and in that Anderson still outranks him.

[Raizo]

grievous04 wrote...

Cra5y Pineapple wrote...

In the meantime OP, you shouldn't really worry, all the squaddies get hate; whether it be...

Ash: Racist
Kaidan: Boring
Liara: Easy
Garrus: Angsty
Tali: Effeminate
Wrex: Mean
Miranda: Big Headed
Jacob: Super Boring
Jack: Uneffeminate
Thane: Emo
Grunt: Immature
Zaeed: Mean
Samara: Emotionless
Morinth: Mean
Kasumi: ...Actually everybody likes Kasumi
Legion: ...everybody likes Legion too
Mordin: ...same

The real point is that they all have positives.

I hate Kasumi. There, a huge hole was poked in your logic. Good day.

And I don't really like Legion. I don't hate him but I don't get all the hype about him either, he's just kind of there to make up the numbers.

[Dean_the_Young]

I invented the argument about why not to trust absolutely trust Legion.

[Pani Mauser]

I don't hate Ashley who is my VS, she is a fine character but if that "Ultimate sacrifice" means death of squadmate, I'd rather see her dead than any of ME2 squaddies. I just love every member of ME2 team, and I'd hate them to die, while Ash is just nice character to me, nothing more. I'd love to have her on the team again but not at cost of loosing someone else. I understand people who love Ash as much as I love other characters, so fingers crossed "Ultimate sacrifice" is about destruction of some big and important object, not about characters we love:)

Modifié par Babe Mause, 22 février 2011 - 11:09 .

[AkiKishi]

Babe Mause wrote...

I don't hate Ashley who is my VS, she is a fine character but if that "Ultimate sacrifice" means death of squadmate, I'd rather see her dead than any of ME2 squaddies. I just love every member of ME2 team, and I'd hate them to die, while Ash is just nice character to me, nothing more. I'd love to have her on the team again but not at cost of loosing someone else. I understand people who love Ash as much as I love other characters, so fingers crossed "Ultimate sacrifice" is about destruction of some big and important object, not about characters we love:)

They should give them an Aeris ending. Kill them off mid story (DLC) short cameo then have it revealed later that whatever they died for is key to stopping the Reapers.

Nothing like a good death scene to get a character remembered.

http://en.wikipedia...._VII#Characters

[Milana_Saros]

Raanz wrote...

They are hated because they are not aliens. Paint them blue and give them tentacle hair and all is forgiven.

Throwing more gas into the fire is not usually a good idea but I simply have to agree here...If I got a euro everytime someone said something on the lines of "Yeah but Liara is actually a meaningful character, doesn't mean the VS need their own DLC" I'd be rich.

I was drawn to Kaidan because in a way he fealt like a match made in heaven for my FemShep. Human, handsome, purrrrrrr voice, down to earth and sticks to his beliefs instead of licking your boots. I'm in.

[lawp79]

Milana_Saros wrote...

Raanz wrote...

They are hated because they are not aliens. Paint them blue and give them tentacle hair and all is forgiven.

Throwing more gas into the fire is not usually a good idea but I simply have to agree here...If I got a euro everytime someone said something on the lines of "Yeah but Liara is actually a meaningful character, doesn't mean the VS need their own DLC" I'd be rich.

I was drawn to Kaidan because in a way he fealt like a match made in heaven for my FemShep. Human, handsome, purrrrrrr voice, down to earth and sticks to his beliefs instead of licking your boots. I'm in.

I agree with this, I dont get why some who dislike the VS feel the need to constantly push their dislike of them in the VS fans faces and also seem to want to deny them a substantial part in 3 or any related dlc, really some folks need to grow up and understand that all have alot invested in certain characters.

[Nerevar-as]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

We can definitely agree on is Horizon could have been done a whole lot better, especially with Shepard, but I just felt the entire scene as a whole could have been written in a more plausible way instead of the current product's "We'll make it 50-50 with realism and idiot ball"

But then we wouldn´t move to the more interesting ME2 LIs<_<. The meeting with Liara also had rather bad writing involved. We can only hope the VS also receives a LotSB level fix too. Although the "Ultimate Sacrifice" achievement for Arrival gives me a bad feeling.

[Milana_Saros]

lawp79 wrote...

I agree with this, I dont get why some who dislike the VS feel the need to constantly push their dislike of them in the VS fans faces and also seem to want to deny them a substantial part in 3 or any related dlc, really some folks need to grow up and understand that all have alot invested in certain characters.

Indeed. And just because someone might think they are boring characters, doesn't mean they wouldn't have done anything meaningful. They're soldiers of the Alliance military, they can't just start their own goose chase against the Shadow Broker just like that. They have their orders and responsibilites. Besides, aren't they pretty much the only characters who have been working on the Reaper issue after Shepard's death? How would that NOT translate into a meaningful story DLC?

Also my favorite argument: But they can die on Virmine so it's not possible to make a DLC. Everyone in ME2 can die, let's not make ME3.