258 réponses à ce sujet

[lawp79]

Milana_Saros wrote...

lawp79 wrote...

I agree with this, I dont get why some who dislike the VS feel the need to constantly push their dislike of them in the VS fans faces and also seem to want to deny them a substantial part in 3 or any related dlc, really some folks need to grow up and understand that all have alot invested in certain characters.

Indeed. And just because someone might think they are boring characters, doesn't mean they wouldn't have done anything meaningful. They're soldiers of the Alliance military, they can't just start their own goose chase against the Shadow Broker just like that. They have their orders and responsibilites. Besides, aren't they pretty much the only characters who have been working on the Reaper issue after Shepard's death? How would that NOT translate into a meaningful story DLC?

Also my favorite argument: But they can die on Virmine so it's not possible to make a DLC. Everyone in ME2 can die, let's not make ME3.

Again I completely agree, unfortunately we appear to be in the minority, at least as far as these forums are concerned, I feel I am constantly defending the VS at the moment.

I never liked Tali, I certainly did not want to romance her but I understood and respected that others did and so I supported it, I really cant see why it cant be the same for the VS. Honestly I am tired of it.

[AkiKishi]

lawp79 wrote...

I agree with this, I dont get why some who dislike the VS feel the need to constantly push their dislike of them in the VS fans faces and also seem to want to deny them a substantial part in 3 or any related dlc, really some folks need to grow up and understand that all have alot invested in certain characters.

I think everyone needs to take a step back and realise that the purpose of a character is to drive the story not become some sort of "pet".

That applies to every character I don't play favourites in that respect. As long as what the character does adds to the story and is a plausible action for them. That's all that matters.

[Dean_the_Young]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I invented the argument about why not to trust absolutely trust Legion.

I'm curious, what is that argument?

In a nut shell: everything Legion says has to be taken on faith, because pretty much everything he says lacks corroboration from any other source. We, the players, are to trust Legion because he's an exposition figure who didn't try and kill us... even though everything we think we know about the Geth is entirely dependent on him being honest with us.

Unlike Tali, who was a codex of the Quarian fleet who other sources could corroborate, or unlike Liara, who shared general Asari views that we can hear from other alien species, there's no one else we can go to to ask if Legion is telling the truth.

There's no reason, besides a convolution of plot that Mass Effect tends to avoid, that Legion couldn't be lying to us in any number of ways: about the true views of the Geth, about their history and development, about the nature of 'Heretics' versus 'True' Geth. Even about being oppossed to the Reapers at all: Legion would easily fit in as an actor of a Reaper Xanatos gambit, a mole who's priority is a critical betrayal at the most important time, and that time would be the Reaper war (where defeat is a doomed galaxy) as opposed to the Suicide Mission (where betraying and killing Shepard then doesn't really doesn't change that the Collectors are screwed, and that the galaxy will be better prepared against the Reapers if it knows the Geth are truly hostile now rather than later).


Trusting Legion is trusting that the narrative is being honest with us, and little else but. What Legion claims really isn't backed up by any other source, impartial or otherwise, whereas Legion's own actions don't disqualify him from having hidden intents.

[AkiKishi]

lawp79 wrote...

I never liked Tali, I certainly did not want to romance her but I understood and respected that others did and so I supported it, I really cant see why it cant be the same for the VS. Honestly I am tired of it.

Because the VS is twice the work of any other character for half the return. Unless you have a thing for them, thats never going to be a good deal.

[Raanz]

Well whether you hate them or not, if you buy DLC, VS resolution will come. The three main characters from ME1 are important to Bioware and eventually will play an important role in the final shaping of the trilogy.

Liara's purpose was realized with LotSB, the survivor's purpose will be realized with something before ME3.

[Milana_Saros]

BobSmith101 wrote...

lawp79 wrote...

I never liked Tali, I certainly did not want to romance her but I understood and respected that others did and so I supported it, I really cant see why it cant be the same for the VS. Honestly I am tired of it.

Because the VS is twice the work of any other character for half the return. Unless you have a thing for them, thats never going to be a good deal.

You referring to how Kaidan/Ash are tied into as one, falling under the term 'VS'? It was Bioware's choice to resort to that kind of decicion. In Horizon this bundling up sucked some major ass. Still they made the call and they should do something about it and I'm pretty sure they will since they said ages ago that the characters will be back in ME3 "with full force". Perhaps getting a new DLC takes so long because they actually try not to bundle these people up, instead making separate story lines for them in a DLC.

Is that a good deal? I think it's up to Bioware to decide. I bought LotSB DLC altough I dislike Liara so....

[AkiKishi]

Milana_Saros wrote...

You referring to how Kaidan/Ash are tied into as one, falling under the term 'VS'? It was Bioware's choice to resort to that kind of decicion. In Horizon this bundling up sucked some major ass. Still they made the call and they should do something about it and I'm pretty sure they will since they said ages ago that the characters will be back in ME3 "with full force". Perhaps getting a new DLC takes so long because they actually try not to bundle these people up, instead making separate story lines for them in a DLC.

Is that a good deal? I think it's up to Bioware to decide. I bought LotSB DLC altough I dislike Liara so....

Any blame is squarely on Biowares shoulders. Personally I'd have clipped the loose end early and taken the flack. Rather than just leave speculations.
I agree they need to do something, although I favour the less resource intensive something of a heroic death cutscene.

Whether you like Liara or not LotSB does advance the story in a very meaningful way. But if you had to cut that in half to accomodate another "Liara" it would not have been as good.

I would not buy a "half" DLC just so they could put A/K into it.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 22 février 2011 - 03:04 .

[Chewin]

Wait when ME 3 arrives...then they'll love' em:devil:

[Milana_Saros]

BobSmith101 wrote...

I would not buy a "half" DLC just so they could put A/K into it.

*ahem*

Hence my earlier comment on the "Liara has actually done something" issue. So have Kai/Ash, we just haven't been presented with the results yet (duh). They're alliance soldiers and the only ones who seem to have been busy working out the Reaper threat. That's the whole point. I'm pretty damn sure that if (more like when) a DLC with the VS will come out, it will have to do with the Reapers.

[Rune-Chan]

sporeian wrote...

Cra5y Pineapple wrote...

Do you mean Ash and Kaidan in general or what happened on Horizon?

I think we all kinda agree Horizon sucked.

I was talking more in the general sense. Alot people want the new ME2 DLC to have them killed.

I wouldn't think much into it. It is typical internet behaviour.

People wanted Tali and Garrus as LI's.
Bioware made Tali and Garrus LI's.
People who don't have any interest in Garrus and Tali want bad things to happen to ****** of the fans.

People want Virmire Survivor DLC.
Bioware make a DLC that has VS (possibly).
People say they want VS to die to ****** off all the people hoping they return.

In other words, people on the internet are dicks, and this kind of thing happens all the time. It's just another form of trolling.

[AkiKishi]

Milana_Saros wrote...

*ahem*

Hence my earlier comment on the "Liara has actually done something" issue. So have Kai/Ash, we just haven't been presented with the results yet (duh). They're alliance soldiers and the only ones who seem to have been busy working out the Reaper threat. That's the whole point. I'm pretty damn sure that if (more like when) a DLC with the VS will come out, it will have to do with the Reapers.

My reason for not buying it has nothing to do with the VS not doing anything and more to do with it having to be 1/2 as long as any other characters DLC would be. Of course if Bioware/EA want to put out a full DLC and absorb the cost themselves I have no problems with that. But it would need to be at least 3 hours long.

[Aeowyn]

I absolutely despise the "Oh people don't like VS because they're not aliens." That argument is cheap and flawed and reeks of bitterness.

That said, I love both Ash and Kaidan and I feel for those who romanced them. They're both really interesting characters, and unfortunately merged into one person on Horizon. They've been handled badly, and I hope to Cthulhu that they get redeemed in, either this DLC or in ME3.

Modifié par Aeowyn, 22 février 2011 - 03:17 .

[jbblue05]

Aeowyn wrote...

I absolutely despise the "Oh people don't like VS because they're not aliens." That argument is cheap and flawed and reeks of bitterness.

That said, I love both Ash and Kaidan and I feel for those who romanced them. They're both really interesting characters, and unfortunately merged into one person on Horizon. They've been handled badly, and I hope to Cthulhu that they get redeemed in, either this DLC or in ME3.

But the argument holds true. Check the polls,
I don't remeber where but even one of the devs said humans are held to a higher standard while alien flaws are overlooked

[Abispa]

I'm NOT unhappy that there is unresolved conflict within the crew that isn't resolved in a side-mission or DLC, that's something I'd like to see as Bioware continues to try to make better "mature" games. Reading these posts makes me realize what a hard job Bioware writers have. Fans want to have control over their characters in RPGs, fair enough, but they also want full control of ALL the characters, even though in a "mature" RPG you should only have control over how YOUR character reacts to a crewmember's decision. And to be realistic, not all resolutions will be happy ones.

I've even read some people say the VS character "sucked" just because they thought their character "owned" him or her after sleeping with him or her in the first game, and even went back to romance Liara when they heard she would star in her own DLC. From and RPG standpoint, that's pathetic. That's pretty much the same complaints I read when the Dragon Age LI wasn't at the main character's beck and call through all the DA DLCs.

Oh, and as was stated earlier, there are those who think, "There's NO WAY Legion would ever turn on me! It's my crew-mate and I did it's loyalty mission! There can NEVER be any conflicts that tear us apart now! I own it!" And Miranda will never change her mind and go back to Cerberus to be with her mentor for over a decade, "I did her loyalty mission (ahem, putting her "sister" under Cerberus supervision)! And she's my LI; I saw her boobies! I own her! If Bioware has her stab me in the back like Ashley did on Horizon, that would suck! Waaaa!"

[Rune-Chan]

jbblue05 wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

I absolutely despise the "Oh people don't like VS because they're not aliens." That argument is cheap and flawed and reeks of bitterness.

That said, I love both Ash and Kaidan and I feel for those who romanced them. They're both really interesting characters, and unfortunately merged into one person on Horizon. They've been handled badly, and I hope to Cthulhu that they get redeemed in, either this DLC or in ME3.

But the argument holds true. Check the polls,
I don't remeber where but even one of the devs said humans are held to a higher standard while alien flaws are overlooked

Anonymous polls mean absolutely nothing. Ever.

People can lie to not get crap from picking the "wrong" choice.
People can lie to screw up the results.
People can click the wrong button.
People can miss out on polls.
People can advertise polls to people who share the same view to make their choice popular.

This is the internet remember. You make a poll and include a joke option, the majority are going to pick that joke option, regardless of whether their real opinion is on there or not.

Modifié par Machines Are Us, 22 février 2011 - 03:37 .

[AkiKishi]

Abispa wrote...

I'm NOT unhappy that there is unresolved conflict within the crew that isn't resolved in a side-mission or DLC, that's something I'd like to see as Bioware continues to try to make better "mature" games. Reading these posts makes me realize what a hard job Bioware writers have. Fans want to have control over their characters in RPGs, fair enough, but they also want full control of ALL the characters, even though in a "mature" RPG you should only have control over how YOUR character reacts to a crewmember's decision. And to be realistic, not all resolutions will be happy ones.
I've even read some people say the VS character "sucked" just because they thought their character "owned" him or her after sleeping with him or her in the first game, and even went back to romance Liara when they heard she would star in her own DLC. From and RPG standpoint, that's pathetic. That's pretty much the same complaints I read when the Dragon Age LI wasn't at the main character's beck and call through all the DA DLCs.
Oh, and as was stated earlier, there are those who think, "There's NO WAY Legion would ever turn on me! It's my crew-mate and I did it's loyalty mission! There can NEVER be any conflicts that tear us apart now! I own it!" And Miranda will never change her mind and go back to Cerberus to be with her mentor for over a decade, "I did her loyalty mission (ahem, putting her "sister" under Cerberus supervision)! And she's my LI; I saw her boobies! I own her! If Bioware has her stab me in the back like Ashley did on Horizon, that would suck! Waaaa!"

Nicely put. Wanting control over anything other than your character is just unreasonable and handicaps the writers creativity.
I'd like to think the writers would just ignore the fans where there is a conflict of interests though.

[Abispa]

Oh, and about that stuff where people prefer having sex with aliens? Let me tell you, as someone who was kidnapped and forced to impregnate the Greys, it ain't all it's cracked up to be. *shiver*

[In Exile]

Personally, I find both characters boring because they're just career soldiers. It's what made most of the ME1 cast decidedly uninteresting, short of basically Wrex.

[In Exile]

Saphra Deden wrote...
Wrex is just a career mercenary with nothing particularly insightful to say about the universe at large. What do you like about him?

Wrex is a career mercenary at the start... but he's also a bitter and cynical old man who tried to lead his people to something better after the genophage and had it all explode in his face because the krogan couldn't and wouldn't let go. That's, IMO, more interesting background than every other ME1 character.

Plus, he's hilarious.

I don't think Ashley's complex with her grandfather is as interesting. Though to be fair, I think Kaiden being more or less boring and largely well-adjusted is the point of his character.

[jeweledleah]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Milana_Saros wrote...

*ahem*

Hence my earlier comment on the "Liara has actually done something" issue. So have Kai/Ash, we just haven't been presented with the results yet (duh). They're alliance soldiers and the only ones who seem to have been busy working out the Reaper threat. That's the whole point. I'm pretty damn sure that if (more like when) a DLC with the VS will come out, it will have to do with the Reapers.

My reason for not buying it has nothing to do with the VS not doing anything and more to do with it having to be 1/2 as long as any other characters DLC would be. Of course if Bioware/EA want to put out a full DLC and absorb the cost themselves I have no problems with that. But it would need to be at least 3 hours long.

you see it as glass half empty, I see it as glass half full.  to people
with multiple playthroughs it would mean they get twice as much content.  Bioware has made the choice to create this dychotomy when tehy made us chose on virmire.  they also allowed people to kill off various squad mates during suicide missions, which means that for a fair number of playthroughs, they would have to work on characters that won't even show up in those people's games.

I'm pretty sure that they were aware of the fact when they made those story choices and budjeted accordingly.

P.S.  I like Wrex and others, I think talking to wrex is a complete hoot, as is hearing some of his comments on misions...as is talking to Ash and Kaidan and hearing some f their comments on missions.  I didn't find any of them boring personaly, I don't need a character to have a super dramatic back ground and ton of unresolved isues to be interesting, but what makes these characters interesting to me (wrex included) is that they have their own opinions on the world.  they aren't just a yes man, they don't always agree with you.  it makes them seem more real.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 22 février 2011 - 04:32 .

[LordShrike]

Does not hate them, not care is more accurate. Important enough to make the distinction anyways.

Sci-fi say much to you? I signed in to see new worlds and new species. Some new re-incarnation of some marine quoting Tennyson does not even register in the "Meh" scale. Same goes for that whatsimacallit, marine.generic.part2 or something.

Garrus: Space lizard that has stick up it's ### WITH a sniper rifle. Thats win.

Liara: Not too shabby of a persona. And she's C.U.T.E!

Tali: Intresting persona and by the far most oddest. Win there. Then forums happened...

Wrex: "Shepard." "Wrex." Always gets my funny muscles moving. Also intresting stories to tell.

In comparison to these it just made me go: Why not both? After Virmire. Then on ME2: Did i care the first time? Shoo, do not want. Do not care. (And i'm anti-Cerberus.)

Thats why. My two cents i found lying around in Flux, finders keepers! (Cents taste funny...)

[jeweledleah]

LordShrike wrote...

Does not hate them, not care is more accurate. Important enough to make the distinction anyways.
Sci-fi say much to you? I signed in to see new worlds and new species. Some new re-incarnation of some marine quoting Tennyson does not even register in the "Meh" scale. Same goes for that whatsimacallit, marine.generic.part2 or something.
Garrus: Space lizard that has stick up it's ### WITH a sniper rifle. Thats win.
Liara: Not too shabby of a persona. And she's C.U.T.E!
Tali: Intresting persona and by the far most oddest. Win there. Then forums happened...
Wrex: "Shepard." "Wrex." Always gets my funny muscles moving. Also intresting stories to tell.
In comparison to these it just made me go: Why not both? After Virmire. Then on ME2: Did i care the first time? Shoo, do not want. Do not care. (And i'm anti-Cerberus.)
Thats why. My two cents i found lying around in Flux, finders keepers! (Cents taste funny...)

oh look - here's the proof that at least some poeple don't care for Ash/Kaidan becasue they are not alien.  might not hate them, but don't care for them.  they are uninteresting...casue they are normal humans.

sigh...  best part about movie aliens for me was somewhat ordinary human turning into a kick ass survivor. meh.  to each their own and all that