258 réponses à ce sujet

[Rune-Chan]

jeweledleah wrote...



oh look - here's the proof that at least some poeple don't care for Ash/Kaidan becasue they are not alien.  might not hate them, but don't care for them.  they are uninteresting...casue they are normal humans.

sigh...  best part about movie aliens for me was somewhat ordinary human turning into a kick ass survivor. meh.  to each their own and all that 

The problem is simply that it is overdone.

Hollywood loves making films where an ordinary guy becomes the hero/saviour, hell, most super hero comics are about it. It's supposed to rile up the audience who are all normal, boring ordinary people and make them think they can be something more.

That's not to say that I agree with this view.

[LordShrike]

@jeweledleah:

Unintresting because Unintresting.

Jack was loads of fun. So was Zaeed. Miranda... Well, i did remember the name without thinking what it was. That speak for it self. Not much... But still.

[jeweledleah]

Everything is overdone at this point. TVtropes provide a name for every single setup you can think of and some that you didn't realize - with examples from various media. and the thing is, Ash, Kaidan and Shepard are not really ordinary humans. Ash moved up in ranks despite her family reputation managed to survive overwhelming assault from an unknown enemy, Kaidan is one rank below Shepard and has multiple service commendation, in addition to being a rare stable l2 human biotic, Shepard is special Ops, and not just any special Ops - highest possible level.

but aliens still trump them, simply by the virtue of being different. Jacob suffers the same fate, even though he's pretty obviously not an ordinary human. some of the other human characters/squad mates get off lighter, either due to super tragic backstory/unusual looks or their voice overs being popular culture icons. blah.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 22 février 2011 - 04:59 .

[jamesp81]

didymos1120 wrote...

snakeboy86 wrote...

i hate the fact that they both think shepard drank from the cerberus cool aid after they killed that admiral and helped shep destroy alot of there projects

It's more that they think Cerberus might have done something mad-sciencey to Shepard.

That's pretty much it.  To be fair, Cerberus DID do something mad-sciencey to Shepard.  Turned out to not be any mind control or other manipulation, but to save someone from death as messed up as Shepard was is well into the realm of mad-science (hell, I think he was technically "dead" for God knows how long).  It is perfectly reasonable for people to be suspicious.

For the record, I really liked Ashley and Kaidan both.  I initially picked Ashley as my LI, but chose Liara on my 2nd playthrough that I carried over to ME2.  Ashley is a good troop, but Liara is pure of heart and innocent.  Given how much darkness Shepard has to face, having that bright light in his life to turn to is good for him.

ETA: I also think Shepard needed better dialog in the Horizon scene.  Something along the lines of "when the Collector threat is over, I'll need your help to get TIM's head on a stick".

ETA: on the LI issue, I'm still torn between Liara and Ashley.  I really like both story arcs.

Modifié par jamesp81, 22 février 2011 - 05:48 .

[Aeowyn]

jeweledleah wrote...

Everything is overdone at this point. TVtropes provide a name for every single setup you can think of and some that you didn't realize - with examples from various media. and the thing is, Ash, Kaidan and Shepard are not really ordinary humans. Ash moved up in ranks despite her family reputation managed to survive overwhelming assault from an unknown enemy, Kaidan is one rank below Shepard and has multiple service commendation, in addition to being a rare stable l2 human biotic, Shepard is special Ops, and not just any special Ops - highest possible level.

but aliens still trump them, simply by the virtue of being different. Jacob suffers the same fate, even though he's pretty obviously not an ordinary human. some of the other human characters/squad mates get off lighter, either due to super tragic backstory/unusual looks or their voice overs being popular culture icons. blah.

Funny how a lot of people who find Ash and Kaidan boring actually like Miranda, Jack, Kasumi and Jacob. It has nothing to do with their humanity. So why not just drop the subject instead of going on and on about it, when obviously it's not true.

[Barquiel]

Aeowyn wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

Everything is overdone at this point. TVtropes provide a name for every single setup you can think of and some that you didn't realize - with examples from various media. and the thing is, Ash, Kaidan and Shepard are not really ordinary humans. Ash moved up in ranks despite her family reputation managed to survive overwhelming assault from an unknown enemy, Kaidan is one rank below Shepard and has multiple service commendation, in addition to being a rare stable l2 human biotic, Shepard is special Ops, and not just any special Ops - highest possible level.

but aliens still trump them, simply by the virtue of being different. Jacob suffers the same fate, even though he's pretty obviously not an ordinary human. some of the other human characters/squad mates get off lighter, either due to super tragic backstory/unusual looks or their voice overs being popular culture icons. blah.

It has nothing to do with their humanity. So why not just drop the subject instead of going on and on about it, when obviously it's not true.

It IS true...even one of the writers (Partick Weekes) said Ashley and Kaidan suffered from being human.

http://meforums.biow...orum=144&sp=120

[Milana_Saros]

jeweledleah wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Milana_Saros wrote...

*ahem*

Hence my earlier comment on the "Liara has actually done something" issue. So have Kai/Ash, we just haven't been presented with the results yet (duh). They're alliance soldiers and the only ones who seem to have been busy working out the Reaper threat. That's the whole point. I'm pretty damn sure that if (more like when) a DLC with the VS will come out, it will have to do with the Reapers.

My reason for not buying it has nothing to do with the VS not doing anything and more to do with it having to be 1/2 as long as any other characters DLC would be. Of course if Bioware/EA want to put out a full DLC and absorb the cost themselves I have no problems with that. But it would need to be at least 3 hours long.

you see it as glass half empty, I see it as glass half full. 

This +1

I honestly don't get how the whole VS concept could turn into a "half a DLC" but I guess each of us has their own thought pattern. I'm tired from work and my DA2 demo download has reduced my forum load speed into a crawl so I cba to debate about this further. My final opinion is that the VS deserve their own DLC and I honestly don't think there's any REAL reason for them not to have it.

[jamesp81]

jeweledleah wrote...

LordShrike wrote...

Does not hate them, not care is more accurate. Important enough to make the distinction anyways.
Sci-fi say much to you? I signed in to see new worlds and new species. Some new re-incarnation of some marine quoting Tennyson does not even register in the "Meh" scale. Same goes for that whatsimacallit, marine.generic.part2 or something.
Garrus: Space lizard that has stick up it's ### WITH a sniper rifle. Thats win.
Liara: Not too shabby of a persona. And she's C.U.T.E!
Tali: Intresting persona and by the far most oddest. Win there. Then forums happened...
Wrex: "Shepard." "Wrex." Always gets my funny muscles moving. Also intresting stories to tell.
In comparison to these it just made me go: Why not both? After Virmire. Then on ME2: Did i care the first time? Shoo, do not want. Do not care. (And i'm anti-Cerberus.)
Thats why. My two cents i found lying around in Flux, finders keepers! (Cents taste funny...)

oh look - here's the proof that at least some poeple don't care for Ash/Kaidan becasue they are not alien.  might not hate them, but don't care for them.  they are uninteresting...casue they are normal humans.

sigh...  best part about movie aliens for me was somewhat ordinary human turning into a kick ass survivor. meh.  to each their own and all that 

100% agree.  That's the fun part of scifi, is where the pluckly humans to get to uncork a whole can of whupass, human style

[Aeowyn]

Barquiel wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

Everything is overdone at this point. TVtropes provide a name for every single setup you can think of and some that you didn't realize - with examples from various media. and the thing is, Ash, Kaidan and Shepard are not really ordinary humans. Ash moved up in ranks despite her family reputation managed to survive overwhelming assault from an unknown enemy, Kaidan is one rank below Shepard and has multiple service commendation, in addition to being a rare stable l2 human biotic, Shepard is special Ops, and not just any special Ops - highest possible level.

but aliens still trump them, simply by the virtue of being different. Jacob suffers the same fate, even though he's pretty obviously not an ordinary human. some of the other human characters/squad mates get off lighter, either due to super tragic backstory/unusual looks or their voice overs being popular culture icons. blah.

It has nothing to do with their humanity. So why not just drop the subject instead of going on and on about it, when obviously it's not true.

It IS true...even one of the writers (Partick Weekes) said Ashley and Kaidan suffered from being human.

http://meforums.biow...orum=144&sp=120

But that does NOT mean that everyone who dislike Kaidan and Ash do so because they're human. Seriously....

[Dean_the_Young]

Since that wasn't the claim... so what?

[AkiKishi]

Milana_Saros wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Milana_Saros wrote...

*ahem*

Hence my earlier comment on the "Liara has actually done something" issue. So have Kai/Ash, we just haven't been presented with the results yet (duh). They're alliance soldiers and the only ones who seem to have been busy working out the Reaper threat. That's the whole point. I'm pretty damn sure that if (more like when) a DLC with the VS will come out, it will have to do with the Reapers.

My reason for not buying it has nothing to do with the VS not doing anything and more to do with it having to be 1/2 as long as any other characters DLC would be. Of course if Bioware/EA want to put out a full DLC and absorb the cost themselves I have no problems with that. But it would need to be at least 3 hours long.

you see it as glass half empty, I see it as glass half full. 

This +1

I honestly don't get how the whole VS concept could turn into a "half a DLC" but I guess each of us has their own thought pattern. I'm tired from work and my DA2 demo download has reduced my forum load speed into a crawl so I cba to debate about this further. My final opinion is that the VS deserve their own DLC and I honestly don't think there's any REAL reason for them not to have it.

It's very simple. One character = total time of DLC. Two characters = half the time of DLC each.

If you don't think half the content and twice the cost are real reasons, well nothing is going to change your mind.

[Dean_the_Young]

Why would the characters be half of the DLC, as opposed to standing in and getting different lines while going to the same places?



They don't need to be two entirely different DLC missions.They just need to be in character on the same mission... which is what you could do with pretty much every story mission in ME1.

[AkiKishi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Why would the characters be half of the DLC, as opposed to standing in and getting different lines while going to the same places?

They don't need to be two entirely different DLC missions.They just need to be in character on the same mission... which is what you could do with pretty much every story mission in ME1.

You can't include both , one of them will always be dead. Therefore you have to split things between the two. Even if you "clone" them that does not change.

[Raanz]

Aeowyn wrote...

But that does NOT mean that everyone who dislike Kaidan and Ash do so because they're human. Seriously....

I agree with you on this point, but....(always a but in there somewhere) I think if you slap a different model on Kaidan, hmmm let's say a drell mesh, he would be much less hated.  How about an Asari mesh for Ash?

I find both of these characters interesting, hell I found most of the ME characters interesting, yes even Jacob.  My opinion is the further a character is from being a normal human, the more fans seem to gravitate towards them.

[Raanz]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Why would the characters be half of the DLC, as opposed to standing in and getting different lines while going to the same places?

They don't need to be two entirely different DLC missions.They just need to be in character on the same mission... which is what you could do with pretty much every story mission in ME1.

This.  The story involving those two are interchangable.  Remember, you didn't have to be romancing Liara to play LotSB.

[AkiKishi]

Raanz wrote...

This.  The story involving those two are interchangable.  Remember, you didn't have to be romancing Liara to play LotSB.

Liara is one character. If she has a 1 1/2 hour DLC you get 1 1/2 hours.

Kaidan and Ashely are two characters grouped under one heading VS.
A 1 1/2 hour DLC splits into two 45 minute mini DLC's

Even if you had access to both characters on different saves, you still would not be able to advance the story as much in half the time. Which makes it only useful if you are a "fan".

It's got nothing to do with whether they are LI's or not.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 22 février 2011 - 06:37 .

[Aedan_Cousland]

I think some people hate the characters because of the reaction they get from the VS on Horizon. That, and among many of the same people Ash & Kaidan were already not popular. Some people think Ashley is a 'racist' and that Kaidan was boring.

As for whether or not a DLC dealing with the VS would have less content devoted to each survivor than LotSB had for Liara, I'm not so sure. I doubt Bioware would create much unique content for each character. Their dialogue in most areas would probably be completely identical, as would the missions and cutscenes, just voiced by a different VA depending on whether or not Ashley or Kaidan survived. Only the romance portions would be unique. The DLC would be similar to Virmire in that either character would be doing the same mission and performing the same role.

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 22 février 2011 - 07:08 .

[Chewin]

^Also note that they're human

[Barquiel]

Aeowyn wrote...


But that does NOT mean that everyone who dislike Kaidan and Ash do so because they're human. Seriously....

No, but it means that they are judged more harshly.

People call Kaidan whiny.
Ashley is obviously a racist.

Now imagine Kaidan has Garrus' issues, and Ashley advocates genocide of some alien species...or one of the human squaddies is responsible for the second genophage.

[jeweledleah]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Raanz wrote...

This.  The story involving those two are interchangable.  Remember, you didn't have to be romancing Liara to play LotSB.

Liara is one character. If she has a 1 1/2 hour DLC you get 1 1/2 hours.

Kaidan and Ashely are two characters grouped under one heading VS.
A 1 1/2 hour DLC splits into two 45 minute mini DLC's

Even if you had access to both characters on different saves, you still would not be able to advance the story as much in half the time. Which makes it only useful if you are a "fan".

It's got nothing to do with whether they are LI's or not.

the logic here is just ...wow....

while the characters should have their own lines, it doesn't mean they should each have a separate mission.  both serve as alliance representatives and liasons to Anderson.  both can advance the story just fine, only certain lines and animations need to be changed.   I'm not seeing how it would split the story in half, I'm really not.

on other note, most of the same people who dislike Ash/Kaidan also dislike Jacob.  they like to claim he's boring as well  (I don't see him as boring, but that's me)  Not to mention voice over issues - (Kaidan =Carth apparently even though characters have nothing in common, poor Carth, why does he cause this much hate, I'll never understand - and Jacob has his priiiize lines andFemshep acting all in heat)  Miranda is Ivonne Strahovsky, a perfectly engineered woman and a very fanservicy nod.  I like her character in spite of it, but there you have it.  jack is a tragic tatooted mostly naked bold menace.  I like Jack a great deal, but she's so far from normal human, she might as well be an alien.  Kasumi is a cute Japanese kleptomaniac who's just out of reach of romance, and who still has people dislike her.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 22 février 2011 - 07:00 .

[ADLegend21]

Interactive Civilian wrote...

iakus wrote...

But Ashley is not racist.  She's suspicious, cynical, independant.  But not racist.

Ashley while walking around the Presidium: "I can hardly tell the aliens from the animals."

Nope. That's not racist at all. <_<

seeing that she's neverservedinspace or with aliens it'dbehardto tell a keeper from a turian on first glace wouldn't it? oh hey giant bug oh hey a Raptor too!

[AkiKishi]

jeweledleah wrote...

the logic here is just ...wow....

while the characters should have their own lines, it doesn't mean they should each have a separate mission.  both serve as alliance representatives and liasons to Anderson.  both can advance the story just fine, only certain lines and animations need to be changed.   I'm not seeing how it would split the story in half, I'm really not.

on other note, most of the same people who dislike Ash/Kaidan also dislike Jacob.  they like to claim he's boring as well  (I don't see him as boring, but that's me)  Not to mention voice over issues - (Kaidan =Carth apparent, poor Carth, why does he cause this much hate, I'll never understand - and Jacob has his priiiize lines andFemshep acting all in heat)  Miranda is Ivonne Strahovsky, a perfectly engineered woman and a very fanservicy nod.  I like her character in spite of it, but there you have it.  jack is a tragic tatooted mostly naked bold menace.  I like Jack a great deal, but she's so far from normal human, she might as well be an alien.  Kasumi is a cute Japanese kleptomaniac who's just out of reach of romance, and who still has people dislike her.

There is nothing wrong with the logic.

They both have to advance the same story.
In other words one of them is totally redundant on any given save game.

If we take 1 hour as the DLC storytelling benchmark. Then with 2 characters they get 30 minutes each. It's pretty straightforward.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 22 février 2011 - 07:07 .

[jeweledleah]

BobSmith101 wrote...


There is nothing wrong with the logic.

They both have to advance the same story.
In other words one of them is totally redundant on any given save game.

If we take 1 hour as the DLC storytelling benchmark. Then with 2 characters they get 30 minutes each. It's pretty straightforward.

so you mean if we only had two squad mates instead of ten - all the missions would be 8 times longers since you only need to write in 2 characters instead of 10?  again, I'm not seeing where you're getting 30 minutes instead of usual 1 hour.  write one hour mission.  insert apropriate character.  change dialogue according to relationship status/which character.  don't even have to change all of the dialoge only some of the lines.  keep the rest of the mission - identical.  we're not talking 2 separate mission here - its the same mission.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 22 février 2011 - 07:10 .

[Pani Mauser]

BobSmith101 wrote...

They should give them an Aeris ending. Kill them off mid story (DLC) short cameo then have it revealed later that whatever they died for is key to stopping the Reapers.

Nothing like a good death scene to get a character remembered.

http://en.wikipedia...._VII#Characters

 
If you only knew how much I hate that 'good death as plot device'-thing!  This is major turn-off for me. Characters don't have to die to be good and memorable. And plot can be advanced by other means.

Aeowyn wrote...

I absolutely despise the "Oh people don't like VS because they're not aliens." That argument is cheap and flawed and reeks of bitterness.

Fact. The only reason I'd choose Ash to die (if someone has to die) is her stupid 'lalala, I'm not listening, you're just grateful to Cerberus for saving your ass' attitude on Horizont . Before it happened, I'd rather have her over both Liara and Tali. 

I never really liked Liara, and never cared much for Tali. In ME2 Liara is not on the team, so she is out of question anyways. And Tali made me care by staying at my femShep's side even despite the fact that Cerberus attacked Flotilla just recently. 

Unlike Ashley, Tali had legit reason to turn down proposition to work with Cerberus, but decided to give old friend a chance, while Ashley preferred to accuse Shep in being grateful to the enemy and refused even to listen to her story.

So blame writers for that, not aliens.

Also, I care for Kasumi, Jack, Miranda, Zaeed, Chakwas, Jacob, Jocker, Kelly and Anderson more than for Ashley, and they all are not aliens either. VS is expendable in my book because VS does not believe in Shepard, thank to the writers. That's all. Race means nothing.

[AkiKishi]

jeweledleah wrote...
so you mean if we only had two squad mates instead of ten - all the missions would be 8 times longers since you only need to write in 2 characters instead of 10?  again, I'm not seeing where you're getting 30 minutes instead of usual 1 hour.  write one hour mission.  insert apropriate character.  change dialogue according to relationship status/which character.  don't even have to change all of the dialoge only some of the lines.  keep the rest of the mission - identical.  we're not talking 2 separate mission here - its the same mission.

If you had 2 squad members then each would get 5 times more "screen time". The missons themselves don't change.Although with what you save by not having to write 8 characters you could probably make them a lot longer.

To write a one hour mission for 2 characters requires twice as much effort, takes more resources. That's why your not seeing it, because you don't focus on that at all.

If we use the same resources for 2 characters each will only get half the time. See ?

If that does not work try this. Imagine LotSB but put in Wrex everytime you see Liara. Then try to work out how much extra effort is involved.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 22 février 2011 - 07:19 .