258 réponses à ce sujet

[didymos1120]

Barquiel wrote...
Now imagine Kaidan has Garrus' issues,

Um, I think they'd think Kaidan was pretty @#$%ing awesome, because to get Garrus' issues in ME2, Kaidan would have had to have led a badass merc team on Omega that had been sold out by one of their own, leaving Mr. Alenko the sole, revenge-focused survivor. If you're talking Garrus' issues in ME1, probably nothing much would have changed because they weren't really any more or less interesting than the whole BAaT thing.  But again, to get those issues, Kaidan would have to have been a former C-Sec agent who you recruit while investigating Saren, so I think it likely people would have found him more interesting on those grounds.

and Ashley advocates genocide of some alien species...

Who did that again?  If you're talking Tali and the geth, I don't see how that quite works.  No one is against destroying the geth until very late in ME2, and at that point, they're all pretty amibivalent about Legion, with some more overtly hostile than others.  To the extent they actually discuss it, that is, which isn't much.  Since most players weren't particularly fond of the geth pre-Legion (even if they found the whole concept of them interesting), I really don't think Ash advocating their destruction would have attracted much notice at all.  If you're talking about something else, OK, but I have no idea what it is.

or one of the human squaddies is responsible for the second genophage.

You'd have a large division of opinion, just as there is on the question of the genophage itself.  Yeah, a lot of people would really dislike them for it, but a lot of other people would defend them. Some zealously.  Guaranteed s/he'd get a hell of a lot more attention though.

Modifié par didymos1120, 22 février 2011 - 07:19 .

[jeweledleah]

why would it require twice as much resources if its the same mission exactly?

edited to add - I prefer Virmire survivors to Garrus and Tali precicely becasue they don't just take me on my word.  they are the only people I could trust to give it to me straight, no matter what. 

Modifié par jeweledleah, 22 février 2011 - 07:17 .

[AdmiralCheez]

@didymos1120: Good point, good sir. Have a cookie. *hands you a cookie*

And, honestly, if every single alien suddenly became human, I'd probably still like them as much as I do now. Same thing with the humans suddenly becoming alien. Kaidan, Ashley, and Jacob suffered in their popularity because they didn't parade their personality traits around so blatantly--you have to make an effort to get to know them. While I don't mind the flash and pizazz of a dramatic entrance, I like it when I find out a certain character is deeper than what I first perceived them as.

People naturally go for the new and shiny first.  It takes time to appreciate the less exotic.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 22 février 2011 - 07:28 .

[AkiKishi]

jeweledleah wrote...

why would it require twice as much resources if its the same mission exactly? 
 

Because you need both A/K VA's , one A/K model for each scene, one A/K for a "squadmate" plus any different powers, can't really see a clone biotic and soldier in gameplay even if they get away with it in the cutscenes.

Even though the "level" might be identical, the above factors (and more) are not. But you basically double everything.

In the case of Liara, you only need 1 of her.

[LegacyOfTheAsh]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Interactive Civilian wrote...

iakus wrote...

But Ashley is not racist.  She's suspicious, cynical, independant.  But not racist.

Ashley while walking around the Presidium: "I can hardly tell the aliens from the animals."

Nope. That's not racist at all. <_<

seeing that she's neverservedinspace or with aliens it'dbehardto tell a keeper from a turian on first glace wouldn't it? oh hey giant bug oh hey a Raptor too!

Yeah, you are on the right track. Ashley says in the game that she has never worked with or around aliens.I would not put it past many humans(who have not become accustomed to an entirely new race of people) to be inherently apprehensive especially after what the Turians did at Shanxi. Now you throw in the fact that Williams's family hasn't had the best experiences with aliens in the military and you have a rational, however incredulous squad mate. Ashley is not a racist.
For me, Ashley's narrow minded(though I never viewed it as racism) view was intially off-putting so I can understand why people may have disliked her in the first game. After speaking with her frequently I took a liking with her. People here have said that no one human in the game is normal which is true to an extent. Ashley, as far as ME1 was concerend, at her heart was the most "human" ****** sapien sapien in the game. Yes her military caree,r despite her family background, is outstanding. Then you speak to her about her family, mainly her sisters and you realize how down to Earth she can be. As the game progresses, Ashley becomes increasingly more trusting of her alien squad mates. By the end of the game, her time spent with the SR-1 crew seems to have effectively quelled her completely reasonable concerns about alien races or at least those that exist within Citadel space.
Unfortunately, due to poor writing, in ME2 Ashley seems to have reverted back to her previous narrow minded views with the "I'm no fan of aliens..." line at Horizon. In this case I could see how Ashley would become less likeable and maybe even percieved as a tad bit xenophobic. This would be especially so for those Kool Kats that never played through ME1 to get to know the characters beforehand as your conversation with the VS in ME2 is ephemeral  and very feebly fills in the blank concerning what your former squad mates are up to. So in my opinion to answer the OP, the VS survivors get hate not because they are human, but because they may be partially misunderstood in combined with their irrational reactions at the end of the Horizon mission.

[LordShrike]

Bobsmith101 is mincing words again i see.

(Waves a little flag.) You go, you! Wooo!

I see little point in this aliens to humans(vice versa)debate. If they are unintresting sudden chance in skin coloration and skin issues won't change that. I did go the trouble of seeing every convo each char had to offer in ME's and some did not got trough to me. Also would like to point out that every char in ME's are superbly made. That does not mean that VS's would get to personal top ten in contrast to everyone else. Sad, but true. I would have liked better Human ME1 team mates, but... Dead chicken and a bat.

And if i purchase a DLC it better have more than 120mins of gameplay. I have stopwatch BioWare!

And where is my Legion DLC? I don't want VS/Cerberus/Storyline DLC. I want more to do with Legion without affecting my walktrough outcomes.

[Raanz]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Raanz wrote...

This.  The story involving those two are interchangable.  Remember, you didn't have to be romancing Liara to play LotSB.

Liara is one character. If she has a 1 1/2 hour DLC you get 1 1/2 hours.

Kaidan and Ashely are two characters grouped under one heading VS.
A 1 1/2 hour DLC splits into two 45 minute mini DLC's

Even if you had access to both characters on different saves, you still would not be able to advance the story as much in half the time. Which makes it only useful if you are a "fan".

It's got nothing to do with whether they are LI's or not.

I see what you are basing your opinion on but that's not how it would work.
1 1/2 hour content would include one base/main NPC (the survivor).  Two character meshes are included in the dlc for art content, most of the content would be generic as far as the story relates to whatever survivor is in a save.
There is absolutely no reason that "time" would be split.
LotSB featured about 10-15 minutes (if that) of content related to any special kind of relationship with Liara.  Aside from the backstory leading up to the Lair, Bioware could have sub'd any character in Liara's slot.

[AkiKishi]

Raanz wrote...

I see what you are basing your opinion on but that's not how it would work.
1 1/2 hour content would include one base/main NPC (the survivor).  Two character meshes are included in the dlc for art content, most of the content would be generic as far as the story relates to whatever survivor is in a save.
There is absolutely no reason that "time" would be split.
LotSB featured about 10-15 minutes (if that) of content related to any special kind of relationship with Liara.  Aside from the backstory leading up to the Lair, Bioware could have sub'd any character in Liara's slot.

Then what would you do ? They can't both be running the maze at the same time 
You have no option but to split the mission.

[Raanz]

BobSmith101 wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

why would it require twice as much resources if its the same mission exactly? 
 

Because you need both A/K VA's , one A/K model for each scene, one A/K for a "squadmate" plus any different powers, can't really see a clone biotic and soldier in gameplay even if they get away with it in the cutscenes.

Even though the "level" might be identical, the above factors (and more) are not. But you basically double everything.

In the case of Liara, you only need 1 of her.

Everything you just mentioned does not "split time".  I also disagree with you about doubling everything.  The only thing that gets doubled is specific scenes written for either Ash or Kaidan...those involving any kind of relationship that your save might have included, and I doubt they would take up more then 10 minutes.

[LegacyOfTheAsh]

LordShrike wrote...

Bobsmith101 is mincing words again i see.
(Waves a little flag.) You go, you! Wooo!
I see little point in this aliens to humans(vice versa)debate. If they are unintresting sudden chance in skin coloration and skin issues won't change that. I did go the trouble of seeing every convo each char had to offer in ME's and some did not got trough to me..

Though I do agree that the characters should always be viewed and criticized in this manner, this is purely an ideographic argument. By and large, the mainstream coumminity is a little bit more concerned with the superficial aspects in the game rather than depth of character and development.

If it just so happens that one of the alien characters looks cool and happens to have a great persona as well, then that is just icing on the cake. For example, not to say anything about Thane, but why do you think he was placed on the cover(hate the cover for the SE but I won't get into that) of the SE of ME2? He is an alien, new, exotic, wears slick clothing and all the kids think he's cool looking. It would have made more since to have Miranda and Jacob or maybe Miranda and Mordin on the cover, but like I said people are generally more concerned with looks.

Modifié par LegacyOfTheAsh, 22 février 2011 - 07:57 .

[Raanz]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Raanz wrote...

I see what you are basing your opinion on but that's not how it would work.
1 1/2 hour content would include one base/main NPC (the survivor).  Two character meshes are included in the dlc for art content, most of the content would be generic as far as the story relates to whatever survivor is in a save.
There is absolutely no reason that "time" would be split.
LotSB featured about 10-15 minutes (if that) of content related to any special kind of relationship with Liara.  Aside from the backstory leading up to the Lair, Bioware could have sub'd any character in Liara's slot.

Then what would you do ? They can't both be running the maze at the same time 
You have no option but to split the mission.

I guess I am not comprehending what you are saying.  There is no reason for "them" to run the maze at the same time.  The character in the story runs the maze (insert your fav character mesh/model), the character recites generic dialog written to drive the story.  The only extra work needed (not extra time in the context of the story) are the couple of "personal" moments between that character and your Shepard..

[PrinceLionheart]

Because Ashley is a racist even though she doesn't believe aliens to be inferior in any way and Kaidan is whiny even though you ask him to tell you about his past.

[Chewin]

I dunno why people think Ash, Kaidan and Jacob are boring. If it's about the human/alien thing then I don't get it. I actually like the human members. As Cheezy said, that you had to make an effort to get to know them. I enjoyed chatting with Ash, Kaidan and Jacob. It was small talk, just hanging around on the Normandy, chatting with your crew about life and all.

[JediNg]

Milana_Saros wrote...

jeweledleah wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Milana_Saros wrote...

*ahem*

Hence my earlier comment on the "Liara has actually done something" issue. So have Kai/Ash, we just haven't been presented with the results yet (duh). They're alliance soldiers and the only ones who seem to have been busy working out the Reaper threat. That's the whole point. I'm pretty damn sure that if (more like when) a DLC with the VS will come out, it will have to do with the Reapers.

My reason for not buying it has nothing to do with the VS not doing anything and more to do with it having to be 1/2 as long as any other characters DLC would be. Of course if Bioware/EA want to put out a full DLC and absorb the cost themselves I have no problems with that. But it would need to be at least 3 hours long.

you see it as glass half empty, I see it as glass half full. 

This +1

I honestly don't get how the whole VS concept could turn into a "half a DLC" but I guess each of us has their own thought pattern. I'm tired from work and my DA2 demo download has reduced my forum load speed into a crawl so I cba to debate about this further. My final opinion is that the VS deserve their own DLC and I honestly don't think there's any REAL reason for them not to have it.

lol I'm with you on that.

[Iakus]

Raanz wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Raanz wrote...

I see what you are basing your opinion on but that's not how it would work.
1 1/2 hour content would include one base/main NPC (the survivor).  Two character meshes are included in the dlc for art content, most of the content would be generic as far as the story relates to whatever survivor is in a save.
There is absolutely no reason that "time" would be split.
LotSB featured about 10-15 minutes (if that) of content related to any special kind of relationship with Liara.  Aside from the backstory leading up to the Lair, Bioware could have sub'd any character in Liara's slot.

Then what would you do ? They can't both be running the maze at the same time 
You have no option but to split the mission.

I guess I am not comprehending what you are saying.  There is no reason for "them" to run the maze at the same time.  The character in the story runs the maze (insert your fav character mesh/model), the character recites generic dialog written to drive the story.  The only extra work needed (not extra time in the context of the story) are the couple of "personal" moments between that character and your Shepard..

Exactly.  It would be no harder a scene to do than having Shep/Femshep doing the scene.  And that's been going on since ME 1.  The only way it would get tricky would be if there was a scene that would involve both the COmmander and the VS to speak at the same time.  That could get complicated.

[AkiKishi]

iakus wrote...

Exactly.  It would be no harder a scene to do than having Shep/Femshep doing the scene.  And that's been going on since ME 1.  The only way it would get tricky would be if there was a scene that would involve both the COmmander and the VS to speak at the same time.  That could get complicated.

Which means it's more work than just having one character doing the scene.

[AdmiralCheez]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Which means it's more work than just having one character doing the scene.

Bioware has a habit of making things more complicated for themselves.

Frankly, if they can pull of multiple responses and dialogue trees with two voice actors, I'm not concerned.

[AkiKishi]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Which means it's more work than just having one character doing the scene.

Bioware has a habit of making things more complicated for themselves.

Frankly, if they can pull of multiple responses and dialogue trees with two voice actors, I'm not concerned.

Well I already said that as long as it's a full DLC like 1 1/2 hours I'm ok with it. But I'm not going to sub someones fan fantasy for half and half.

I also don't think having a particular save should be required to unlock a character.

I'm sure if they could have got away without a female Shepard they would have.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 22 février 2011 - 09:11 .

[In Exile]

Chewin3 wrote...

I dunno why people think Ash, Kaidan and Jacob are boring. If it's about the human/alien thing then I don't get it. I actually like the human members. As Cheezy said, that you had to make an effort to get to know them. I enjoyed chatting with Ash, Kaidan and Jacob. It was small talk, just hanging around on the Normandy, chatting with your crew about life and all.

They're career soldiers, and largely well adjusted. They're as interesting as a normal, well-adjusted tax accountant.

[didymos1120]

AdmiralCheez wrote...
 Kaidan, Ashley, and Jacob suffered in their popularity because they didn't parade their personality traits around so blatantly--you have to make an effort to get to know them.

The main problem people have with Jacob (at least that I've found) is that you really can't get to know him.  He'll say a sentence or two about really interesting stuff he's done....and then he will never, ever talk about it again.  Sometimes, he'll even get irritated with you if you ask about it again later using another dialogue option.   Then people discovered his romance dialogue, and the poor guy was just done for.

[didymos1120]

LegacyOfTheAsh wrote...
Unfortunately, due to poor writing, in ME2 Ashley seems to have reverted back to her previous narrow minded views with the "I'm no fan of aliens..." line at Horizon. 

That's not really a reversion.  She never got the point of being all "Yay! Aliens!"  Besides, it was clearly meant as ironic self-deprecation.  It was also kind of a poke at the "ASH IS TEH RACIST!" people, by way of pointing out that if you thought her rather mild attitudes in ME1 were a problem, you really ought to hate the hell out of Cerberus.

[LegacyOfTheAsh]

didymos1120 wrote...

LegacyOfTheAsh wrote...
Unfortunately, due to poor writing, in ME2 Ashley seems to have reverted back to her previous narrow minded views with the "I'm no fan of aliens..." line at Horizon. 

That's not really a reversion.  She never got the point of being all "Yay! Aliens!"  Besides, it was clearly meant as ironic self-deprecation.  It was also kind of a poke at the "ASH IS TEH RACIST!" people, by way of pointing out that if you thought her rather mild attitudes in ME1 were a problem, you really ought to hate the hell out of Cerberus.

Well I never said she LOVED aliens by the end of ME1. I said that her view on aliens had become markedly improved, hence my labeling it as a reversion. Either way, Horizon left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths including mine regardless of the fact that I really liked Ashley in ME1.

[JediNg]

LegacyOfTheAsh wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

LegacyOfTheAsh wrote...
Unfortunately, due to poor writing, in ME2 Ashley seems to have reverted back to her previous narrow minded views with the "I'm no fan of aliens..." line at Horizon. 

That's not really a reversion.  She never got the point of being all "Yay! Aliens!"  Besides, it was clearly meant as ironic self-deprecation.  It was also kind of a poke at the "ASH IS TEH RACIST!" people, by way of pointing out that if you thought her rather mild attitudes in ME1 were a problem, you really ought to hate the hell out of Cerberus.

Well I never said she LOVED aliens by the end of ME1. I said that her view on aliens had become markedly improved, hence my labeling it as a reversion. Either way, Horizon left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths including mine regardless of the fact that I really liked Ashley in ME1.

Pretty much my sentiments.  She was good company in ME.  Thought her opinions on 'aliens' improved at the end of ME.  But then ME2 comes along and she slaps that on us.  All my hate, lol.

[Siansonea]

Null topic. Lots of people adore Kaidan and Ashley. People that hate them, well, they're welcome to hate them I suppose. I wonder how many of the alleged haters have played the first game, though. Or bothered to talk to Kaidan/Ashley. Or are older than 18. I can see young boys hating the characters, it takes maturity to appreciate the less broadly-drawn personalities, but I can't see people in their 30s and older actively disliking those characters. *shrugs*