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[Lobo4600]

LuxLucis wrote...

I wonder what EA/ Bioware is thinking right now from reading these threads/posts? I wonder.....

They are laughing cause no matter what we want at the end of the day they are still going to make money.

[In Exile]

Here's one problem I have with DA2: the combat is slower. Not slower in the sense that each move isn't faster, but it takes longer to kill things. I did nightmare runs where it took less to kill enemies. Cooldown on abilities feel longer and overall I feel much weaker on normal in DA2 than on nightmare in DA:O.

[Bryy_Miller]

LuxLucis wrote...

I wonder what EA/ Bioware is thinking right now from reading these threads/posts? I wonder.....

There are very few positive/negative posts that actually say something unique. Everything else is just "I liked this" or "DA2 sucks".

[Baelyn]

Lobo4600 wrote...

shadownian wrote...

Sidney wrote...

shadownian wrote...
1. alot of time and effort went into making the warden exactly how we wanted them...mutiple play throughs to get just the right outcomes etc.
2. the warden was a good character...even though mute...and could have been human...elf..dwarf etc. The making of a new lead character shows bioware was lazy and didnt want to make different stories for different races etc.
3. Its not just about the warden...its about his/her interactions and relationships with the other great characters...who also seem to have been thrown out.

This should be no shock from as far back as the DAO's pre-release they talked about Dragon Age being a setting not a character in contrast to Mass Effect.

How does going to the effort to create a new character show they are lazy? Lazy is just doing the same darn thing over and over again. In the end there's nowhere to go. The Warden either went with Morrigan or he didn't. Now for giggles you could have one story that accounts for both possiblities but man that would suck even more than Witch Hunt already did by making your choice there meaningless.

Enough about the $%^&# elves. They made no difference. They didn't write multiple stories for the different races...in the end it was all the same outcome with "the warden". You got a different tutorial level and some toss away dialog but the story was the same.  Go play PST and tell me how flippin' awful not being able to choose a race and background is.

Ok ill explain myself...
Fine...DA was a setting and not a character...ok good...plenty of good characters other than the warden that were introduced that could have been used for the sequel...that still could have used some of the choices made bu people who played part 1

How is creating a new character lazy...ill explain again....Its not to hard to come up with a generic male/female character...especially when the whole look is determined by the player. Having to take existing characters and tell where they all are...what happened to em...whered they go and why...what choices you made and how they effected the world...how your race/class impacts things..etc...theres alot of variables to deal with when doing an extesion of the first game...rather than an all out new person. With a new person you have no history...no choices to figure out different stories for etc. He just is...and then you hurry up and get him out of the known game world asap so none of the old choices can impact him or the game...that is how its lazy If I give you a story to create with ten possible branches of story...and each branch has another 3 possible routes...and those routes have more possiblities....It makes it extremely difficult for me to come up with a new story that matches all your possible choices...instead its alot easier just to make a whole new character.

And about it nieng the same at the end...yes you only had a few possible endings...but like I said you had alot of smaller choices along the way. Just like Mass Effect. Me had just a few endings but alot of choices on the way. Its those choices that the developers would have to acccount for and that would be too much work/time/effort.

Much better to make some unknown "champion"

Thats what I meant....hope i was clear that time

^ This right here is why people are pissed. The player put time and energy into making their Warden the way they wanted. Now the rug has been ripped out from under them and they are left on their ass going "What the **** just happened?" They feel as if all they did was a waste of time and energy because this "sequel" has nothing really to do with the first game. That leaves a bad taste in peoples'mouths. Now Bioware can't account for the possible outcomes so they went the easy way. What you get is Dragon Effect.

It still continues to amaze me that people automatically assume the Warden storyline (or if your warden died the plots brought about in DA:O) is finished. It has been said several times that the Morrigan story is EXTREMELY important to the series. They didn't want to pigeon hole the entire series to be about killing an archdemon over and over. Its called an over-arching plot and Hawke is apparently vital to it, hence the purpose of introducing how he came to be in this game. When you have such a specific intimate part of a story it leaves little room for customization hence why we are being limited in what Hawke can be. People really need to stop jumping the gun on this.

I understand if you have issues with how the game plays (I don't but everyone is entitled to their opinion on that) But as far as this being a "reboot" I think it is very early to make those assumptions. Because of what this very story is has to define how it is.

EDIT: Typo

Modifié par Baelyn, 27 février 2011 - 08:50 .

[Lobo4600]

Baelyn wrote...

Lobo4600 wrote...

shadownian wrote...

Sidney wrote...

shadownian wrote...
1. alot of time and effort went into making the warden exactly how we wanted them...mutiple play throughs to get just the right outcomes etc.
2. the warden was a good character...even though mute...and could have been human...elf..dwarf etc. The making of a new lead character shows bioware was lazy and didnt want to make different stories for different races etc.
3. Its not just about the warden...its about his/her interactions and relationships with the other great characters...who also seem to have been thrown out.

This should be no shock from as far back as the DAO's pre-release they talked about Dragon Age being a setting not a character in contrast to Mass Effect.

How does going to the effort to create a new character show they are lazy? Lazy is just doing the same darn thing over and over again. In the end there's nowhere to go. The Warden either went with Morrigan or he didn't. Now for giggles you could have one story that accounts for both possiblities but man that would suck even more than Witch Hunt already did by making your choice there meaningless.

Enough about the $%^&# elves. They made no difference. They didn't write multiple stories for the different races...in the end it was all the same outcome with "the warden". You got a different tutorial level and some toss away dialog but the story was the same.  Go play PST and tell me how flippin' awful not being able to choose a race and background is.

Ok ill explain myself...
Fine...DA was a setting and not a character...ok good...plenty of good characters other than the warden that were introduced that could have been used for the sequel...that still could have used some of the choices made bu people who played part 1

How is creating a new character lazy...ill explain again....Its not to hard to come up with a generic male/female character...especially when the whole look is determined by the player. Having to take existing characters and tell where they all are...what happened to em...whered they go and why...what choices you made and how they effected the world...how your race/class impacts things..etc...theres alot of variables to deal with when doing an extesion of the first game...rather than an all out new person. With a new person you have no history...no choices to figure out different stories for etc. He just is...and then you hurry up and get him out of the known game world asap so none of the old choices can impact him or the game...that is how its lazy If I give you a story to create with ten possible branches of story...and each branch has another 3 possible routes...and those routes have more possiblities....It makes it extremely difficult for me to come up with a new story that matches all your possible choices...instead its alot easier just to make a whole new character.

And about it nieng the same at the end...yes you only had a few possible endings...but like I said you had alot of smaller choices along the way. Just like Mass Effect. Me had just a few endings but alot of choices on the way. Its those choices that the developers would have to acccount for and that would be too much work/time/effort.

Much better to make some unknown "champion"

Thats what I meant....hope i was clear that time

^ This right here is why people are pissed. The player put time and energy into making their Warden the way they wanted. Now the rug has been ripped out from under them and they are left on their ass going "What the **** just happened?" They feel as if all they did was a waste of time and energy because this "sequel" has nothing really to do with the first game. That leaves a bad taste in peoples'mouths. Now Bioware can't account for the possible outcomes so they went the easy way. What you get is Dragon Effect.

It still continues to amaze me that people automatically assume the Warden storyline (or if your warden died the plots brought about in DA:O) is finished. It has been said several times that the Morrigan story is EXTREMELY important to the series. They didn't want to pigeon hole the entire series to be about killing an archdemon over and over. Its called an over-arching plot and Hawke is apparently vital to it, hence the purpose of introducing how he came to be in this game. When you have such a specific intimate part of a story it leaves little room for customization hence why we are being limited in what Hawke can be. People really need to stop jumping the gun on this.

I understand if you have issues with how the game plays (I don't but everyone is entitled to their opinion on that) But as far as this being a "reboot" I think it is very early to make those assumptions. Because of what this very story is has to define how it is.

EDIT: Typo

I'm not saying Morrigan isn't important. I'm just pointing out why people are pissed.

[Baelyn]

Just for reference here is Laidlaw specifically saying that Hawke's story directly impacts and even sets up the series for other stories...Especially Morrigan's...So by no means should anyone feel like their time investing in the Warden was wasted....

www.youtube.com/watch

[bluestrider25]

Played the 360 demo many of a time.

My biggest gripe with the game is the cartoonish style in which the game is heading. I like my rpg's dark. The one option you could change was the brightness in the options...it might look better with that turned down. idk. Love the improve graphics minus the scenery...but its not crysis so no big deal.

As for those of you are on the fence about the hack'n'slash, I recommend going over to gamespot.com to look at the "Now Playing DA:II". WARNING SPOILERS there!!!! It's actual game play narrated by one of the lead developers. He basically says normal = easy across the platforms. He prefers hard and insanity is for people who know all the party members niches and works them together.

About the actual gameplay i'll hold most of my opinions for launch. But i will say this, I COMMEND you Bioware. I'm so overjoyed it's faster and that they eliminated cast times, for the most part anyways. I DETEST cast times! Cool downs and reload times i do not mind and understand. However cast times boggle my mind on most games...if the AI was worth anything the moment the character got into cast stance they'd put an arrow between the casters eyes or a knife in the back. That being said, a lot of people in this thread complain about it's to fast paced. You still can pause it and look around and make tactical adjustments...but I prefer games like this and Resident Evil, FPS, and Mass Effect. Because whether it's real, fictional, or gameplay the enemy isn't gonna stand around while you plan strategically.

On another note, the over the top moves with OP two-hander class (they're suppose to be OP, their the NBA and WWE stars running around with swords and hammer 8) and rouges are awesome. I too hated their movements after watching the DA:O trailer. People say the moves are exaggerated...yea I guess...good thing they didn't put magic in their game that'd just be to exaggerated huh.

Besides i come back to Bioware for the story, not the loot or gear (hmmp hmpp you know who you are....WOW). They tell amazing stories!

[Yrkoon]

LuxLucis wrote...

I wonder what EA/ Bioware is thinking right now from reading these threads/posts? I wonder.....

They're probably thinking:  'Oh boy... here we go again.  Didn't we get the same level of doom and gloom about our RPG "direction"  right before we released  DA:O?  And Neverwinter Nights?  And DA:A?  Oh yeah... we did!"

So no, as much as you wish to believe that the negativity  here is somehow  a  unique experience to Bioware, it's not... not by a longshot.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 27 février 2011 - 09:21 .

[Parahexavoctal]

 Played the PC demo through 3 times now, once as each class. These are my impressions.

The Good:
The upgrade in graphics is impressive, including things like the interface. It seems to be more smooth and intuitive most times (though the icons for conversation really aren't all very intuitive, they will need explanation).
The increased mobility, swing speed etc. has many times given combat a more dynamic and action paced feel that I like.
The concept of having the story told as a series of flashbacks seems to work well even in this short glimpse of it. Though I do hope to hear difference in the interrogation dialog and reactions to it depending on paths taken when played.
Cutting down on talents and making them upgradable is a good step up from the original talent system, at least for mages.
Investigate choices for dialog is a good way to indicate which parts are background material and which parts lead to decisions.

The Bad:
While dynamic, combat also seems a good bit more chaotic and less strategic.
My mage still spent a little too much time doing boring auto-attacks, but it might improve at later levels with more spells trained.
Talent choices seemed a little limited for e.g. my archer rogue. The archery tree was a no-brainer, but there was nothing else to prop it up.
I rather miss the killing blows of DA:O, having the darkspawn explode in a cloud of blood and leave the boots standing is fun enough, but it doesn't have the elaborate feints, combos and decapitations I loved.
I really didn't see any naturally occuring slow-motion ogre kills either. That kind of thing seemed reserved for cut-scenes played after combat, and appeared disjointed and unsatisfactory. Why doesn't it happen real time as I fight?
Is my archer really expected to hit monsters in melee range with her bare fist and bow instead of shooting them?
I really miss the varied origins, like experiencing the difference between meeting someone as a human noble and a dalish elf.

The Ugly:
The demo was a little short to make a final decision on this, but I think you've broken the most important thing for me: Immersion. I will explain:
I really loved the origins of DA:O, they made me really connect with my character, made her truly mine. I had absolute control over her apperance and her dialog, always with enough options to pick a line I could identify with.
DA2 broke most of these aspects, and together, I think they are breaking my immersion. I'm no longer playing a character of my choosing, I'm playing this very distinct Hawke character. I no longer have control over what she says, I just get some annoyingly vague talking points, only to watch in horror as she says something I really didn't intend. I think Hawke being voiced just makes it worse, I now have to hear intonations I never wanted to make myself. It really feels like Hawke is just another NPC and there isn't anyone left for me to identify with, to be my character.

I still have DA2 pre-ordered, and I don't plan to change that. Perhaps in the full game, I can shape Hawke enough to identify with her, even if it won't have half the replay value of origins. But if you're looking for feedback relevant to DA3, it would be this: please don't write my character for me; the strength of DA1 was the how the origins and full variety of dialog options gave us unsurpassed immersion into our character. It looks to be missing from DA2, I'd really love to see it's return in DA3.

[LuxLucis]

Dragon Age is dead....it's hack and slash fast pace no immersion game play now....

[Baelyn]

LuxLucis wrote...

Dragon Age is dead....it's hack and slash fast pace no immersion game play now....

This comment was both helpful and original.

[miko07749]

Maybe they shouldn't have called it DA2 to avoid so many people expecting a "real" sequel.
Probably "DA:Tales of a champion" would have been more appropriate.

The main component of the game is the story and this story can only work with a human character. How could an elf become champion of a town in which elves are slaves?

In my opinion judging the game without knowing the complete version is not fair.

By all means, I will love it

[moilami]

LuxLucis wrote...

I wonder what EA/ Bioware is thinking right now from reading these threads/posts? I wonder.....

Dunno, but folks in EA are just lolling and when they see sales they lol even more. This making good profit with the name of the original is nothing new in movies and games. EA especially mastered it as early as '80. Up to the point that they had to slow down a little. Novadays it is not as easy to do a crappy game of popular movie, but it seems it is very easy to make a crappy sequel of winner game. Naturally.


Edit: Note I am not saying BW or EA is doing it wrong. They are doing it right if they get more profit and if they keep making more profit, as they have done. That does not however mean I would have to praise Big Mac as the best just bacause it is sold more than anything else and favored by masses.

Modifié par moilami, 27 février 2011 - 09:44 .

[Graunt]

EddySpeddy wrote...

May be a little off topic here but...

I've always thought the rogue should have the option of Two Handed or Dual Wielding, from my point of view the Rogue is a heavy DPS, and the Warrior is a Heavy tank/Semi-DPS. a Two Handed Sword seems more like a DPS item than a Defence item, I think Rogues and Warriors should both have a Two Handed tree(e.g. Rogue has option of Two Handed or Dual Wield, and Warrior has option of Sword & Shield or Two Handed).

Could we leave the MMORPG sterotypes where they belong?  If you want to get into what's actually "traditional", Warriors were always damage dealers that also took hits.  Rogues were utility classes that couldn't take a hit and only dealt any real damage through sneak attacks and backstabs.  Outside of stealth their combat was much weaker than that of a Warrior.

Then when you branch off into specializations things start looking much differently with Warriors also having the option to become Cavaliers/Knights in the "meat shield" vein while Rogues could become Swashbucklers, Duellists and Assassins.  A Rogue isn't going to be very "stealthy" running around with a sword that's as long as they are tall.  Weapons like that are all about overpowering, not precision.

Modifié par Graunt, 27 février 2011 - 09:42 .

[Yrkoon]

Baelyn wrote...

LuxLucis wrote...

Dragon Age is dead....it's hack and slash fast pace no immersion game play now....

This comment was both helpful and original.

And it pushes the limits of Profound, too.

  That he was able to draw this conclusion of the game  from playing a snipped prologue....  amazing.


I think my cousin said the same thing about DA:O after killing the rats in the Human Noble Origin, and quit playing after that.  Of course, he's like, 14, but what can we say.  ADD is a terrible disease.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 27 février 2011 - 09:42 .

[wulf3n]

miko07749 wrote...
Maybe they shouldn't have called it DA2 to avoid so many people expecting a "real" sequel.
Probably "DA:Tales of a champion" would have been more appropriate.

But was there ever any talk of a continuation from Origins with the warden? I was under the impression from before the first game that origins was pretty stand alone. I remember talk of decisions having an affect on later stories, but that's about it.

Im also excited about the concept of a series that doesn't follow one set of characters from start to end. It'd be something original, something that contain a massive over arching story bigger than any one character could experience.

[Graunt]

Yrkoon wrote...
ADD is a terrible disease.

It also has way more to do with the way society in general lives and the way children are currently raised more than any true chemical imbalance.  Most of it's psychologically induced/learned.

[moilami]

Yrkoon wrote...

Baelyn wrote...

LuxLucis wrote...

Dragon Age is dead....it's hack and slash fast pace no immersion game play now....

This comment was both helpful and original.

And it pushes the limits of Profound, too.

  That he was able to draw this conclusion of the game  from playing a snipped prologue....  amazing.


I think my cousin said the same thing about DA:O after killing the rats in the Human Noble Origin, and quit playing after that.  Of course, he's like, 14, but what can we say.  ADD is a terrible disease.

You don't need to study years a game in order to get an idea how combat and stuff in it is. If you want to say opinion of the story you will have to play the full game. But I haven't said the story is for sure very amazing. I have said the story better make it worthwhile to play the game. I expect it will.

Anyway, will keep lolling at peeps who say "how you can say after playing a demo only" when they say in the next paragraph "me luv the game <3<3<3 story is amazing everything is amazing Yay!"

Hypocrit much?

[michaelius_pl]

LuxLucis wrote...

I wonder what EA/ Bioware is thinking right now from reading these threads/posts? I wonder.....

I'd put my bet on "oh crap we will never release demo again"

Now i also played PS3 demo and i finally understood why interface sucked so badly on pc - it's 100% custom made for game pad and zero effort has been put in making it better on pc version.

For a moment mashing X was fun but bad control over team mates makes it poblematic against any king of boss.

[The Elder King]

michaelius_pl wrote...

LuxLucis wrote...

I wonder what EA/ Bioware is thinking right now from reading these threads/posts? I wonder.....

I'd put my bet on "oh crap we will never release demo again"

Now i also played PS3 demo and i finally understood why interface sucked so badly on pc - it's 100% custom made for game pad and zero effort has been put in making it better on pc version.

For a moment mashing X was fun but bad control over team mates makes it poblematic against any king of boss.

About the X mashing, the console versions will have the option to auto-attack in the full game.

[Yrkoon]

moilami wrote...

Yrkoon wrote...

Baelyn wrote...

LuxLucis wrote...

Dragon Age is dead....it's hack and slash fast pace no immersion game play now....

This comment was both helpful and original.

And it pushes the limits of Profound, too.

  That he was able to draw this conclusion of the game  from playing a snipped prologue....  amazing.


I think my cousin said the same thing about DA:O after killing the rats in the Human Noble Origin, and quit playing after that.  Of course, he's like, 14, but what can we say.  ADD is a terrible disease.

You don't need to study years a game in order to get an idea how combat and stuff in it is. If you want to say opinion of the story you will have to play the full game. But I haven't said the story is for sure very amazing. I have said the story better make it worthwhile to play the game. I expect it will.

Anyway, will keep lolling at peeps who say "how you can say after playing a demo only" when they say in the next paragraph "me luv the game <3<3<3 story is amazing everything is amazing Yay!"

Hypocrit much?

Hmm...  nope.  No sale.  The context we're dealing with here is  not "what's the  combat like DA2?".   Had it been that, I wouldn't have bothered with a response, because you obviously CAN  get a sense of what the combat will be  like after playing this demo.

No, what we were discussing here (as  anyone can clearly see from this quote pyramid), is the claim that  1) Dragon Age is Dead; and 2) the game has been reduced to a hack'n'slash".     The problem is, there's no conceivable way to determine either one from just playing the Demo.  And everyone with a brain here knows it.

[PangoJango]

I.ve read some poeple complaining about not being able to retain their DAO character, i'm surprised that they would even think that they would. There are very few RPG sequels that retain the same characters from one game to the next. None of the Elder scrolls games allow this, KOTOR vs KOTOR2, or the upcoming MMORPG which takes place quite along time after the original 2, etc. Sure ME to ME2 we see the same character, which was pretty cool but to be honest it wasnt really the same since you lost all your gear, experience, and could change your class, the only real thing that linked the games together was some plot points and the face you made, which you could also change if you wanted to. I think the same people spouting "dragon effect" would be saying its "dragon effect" if they could keep their Warden but have to go through the same kind of thing as the Shepard character to put you back as a lower powered character to facilitate play of a new game.
This is a new game, not an expansion.

For those that complain that its not RPGy enough and its a hack and slash game now, i couldnt tell you, i havent played it at higher difficulty yet, i do see the potential for it to be played either way though.

as far as immersion, i will miss knowing exactly what my character is going to say, to tell you the truth i didnt really like it that much in ME either. I've always felt that took away from the control of the character, more like i was nugding in one direction rather than being the character

finally, however the game turns out and whatever the game has become my only true expectation and hope is that the characters are as fleshed out, as interestingly varied, and fun to learn about as all the bioware games i've played, begining with KOTOR.

i enjoyed the demo for what it was, a tease, it wasnt meant to show how you could build and become your character, but rather to illustrate a few of the things you can do while fighting. i wouldnt have called DAO a very good RPG if i had just played the part in ostagar where i was looking for darkspawn blood and retrieving the scrolls, or KOTOR if all i knew of the story was looking for sand peoples clothing.

Modifié par PangoJango, 27 février 2011 - 10:10 .

[sonic1802]

A demo is just a taster at the end of the day. You can't judge a game completely on the demo alone. I agree that quite a few of the players here probably -want- their warden back, but once they've played DA2 for a few hours with their newly custom made Hawke, I doubt they'll be caring that much.

As much as people are complaining about it now, I still bet they are still buying the game ;p

[Baelyn]

I just can't believe how people could really think that you could really grasp a Bioware game in such a short, segmented, old, locked down demo. I am pretty sure that I would have not been NEAR as impressed with DA:O had a played a snippet like we got for DA2 prior to buying it. So much of what makes Biowares games great is getting caught up in the story and characters...which you just can't realistically do in 25-30 minutes of disjointed gameplay. Yes you can see the combat system (which from everything I have read is a bit different in the final game...especially in the tactics being all bugged out) but the harsh assumptions that people are making about the game overall based on this is quite astonishing to me.

[wulf3n]

One thing i would have liked in the demo would have been an example of side quests. I didn't like the origins side quests as they usually boiled down to travel here (which was just red blots on a map) kill everyone in the area, then return to quest giver. No exploration, no story, just go here, kill that, repeat.