8659 réponses à ce sujet

[FlintlockJazz]

Graunt wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...
The lack of isometric view does affect gameplay, it alters what you can do, it's a change to gameplay.

A) No it doesn't and it's a personal annoyance not having a wider view.  You can still "see" the same enemies you could always see by manipulating the camera.  Terrain has more to do with what you can and cannot do than view.  The gameplay is not affected in any way by the change of the camera.

The change in how difficulty works shows that there is a change in the gameplay since console players could not play the game the same way as PC players could.

Wrong.  Difficulty is not gameplay, it's nothing more than a scalar.

If you want to get technical, PCs have more memory and are more able to run larger gameworlds while consoles are more stable too.

And this is relevant to Dragon Age in what way?  The single largest benefit of having a game for a PC over a console when the game is for either platform is graphical enhancements, usually a superior control scheme as well as mods.  That has nothing to do with the default gameplay.

I really don't understand why you seem to think Bioware is going to develop two seperate games.  DA2:InferiorConsole and DA2:SuperiorPC.  Game developers aren't your friends and they don't care about what your prefered platform is, only that whatever platform sells the most is what they can make the most money off of.

I cetrainly am a DA:O fan. I thought it was a huge step forward for RPGs
and possibly the begining some awsome inovations in the genre.

Every time I read statements like this, I just have to wonder what games these posters have been playing over the last decade.  Practically every RPG Bioware has released since Baldur's Gate played the same, and that includes Dragon Age.  Sure, there were some changes, but not enough to differentiate it from the same tired and recycled formula that had been done to death.

Great work in putting words in my mouth and twisting things to suit your own purpose.  Where did I say that console is inferior or PC superior?  Hell, I didn't even mention DA2 in my post so you are obviously going off on one.  I specifically stated that they were different and that both had advantages and disadvantages, if you cannot accept this then that is your problem and if you are going to attack people for stating that PCs and consoles are different because, shock horror, they are, then I have better things to do than argue with you.  Good day.

[FemHawke]

Overall loved it!!

Constructive feedback: Running seems a bit off for female characters. Their backsides shimmy as they stride... really distracting.

[Graunt]

FlintlockJazz wrote...
Great work in putting words in my mouth and twisting things to suit your own purpose.  Where did I say that console is inferior or PC superior?  Hell, I didn't even mention DA2 in my post so you are obviously going off on one.  I specifically stated that they were different and that both had advantages and disadvantages, if you cannot accept this then that is your problem and if you are going to attack people for stating that PCs and consoles are different because, shock horror, they are, then I have better things to do than argue with you.  Good day.

Why are you even replying if you aren't going to remain on point with what you quoted in the first place?  You did also mention the "merits" a PC has over a Console and the reason a Console has to play "differently".  Do you even know what you write, or do you simply have temporary amnesia?

If you want to get technical, PCs have more memory and are more able to
run larger gameworlds while consoles are more stable too.  This is not
an attack on consoles, it's just a fact: consoles and PCs are different,
and should be treated as such

The whole "superior" vs "inferior" is in response to how you make claims that gameplay was changed because of the console when it wasn't.  The gameplay is the same, the interface is not.  If the game was dumbed down for consoles, it had already happened with the release of Origins.

Modifié par Graunt, 02 mars 2011 - 11:56 .

[Alexus_VG]

Graunt wrote...

Every time I read statements like this, I just have to wonder what games these posters have been playing over the last decade.  Practically every RPG Bioware has released since Baldur's Gate played the same, and that includes Dragon Age.  Sure, there were some changes, but not enough to differentiate it from the same tired and recycled formula that had been done to death.  Also, such "fans" can't even recognize how DA2 is just as similar.  The main difference is that the player character is now voice acted and you don't have as many "fluff" lines that hide the fact that only three choices lead to a different outcome.

Ok Im not going to argue about why I have a high opinion of DA:O as this isn't the thread for that clearly however I think you underestimate how much of an impact even those two difereneces you pointed out yourself make to some players such as myself. The voiceover and lack of "fluff" both make a huge difference in how imersive the game is to me and imersion is one of the very vital elements of a RPG.

[Graunt]

Alexus_VG wrote...
Ok Im not going to argue about why I have a high opinion of DA:O as this isn't the thread for that clearly however I think you underestimate how much of an impact even those two difereneces you pointed out yourself make to some players such as myself. The voiceover and lack of "fluff" both make a huge difference in how imersive the game is to me and imersion is one of the very vital elements of a RPG.

The choices were always so transparent that they were not fooling anyone, and it was the difference between "In three seconds I'll kick you in the face!" vs "I would suggest you kindly back away before you see what I'm capable of!".  It's pretty much impossible to actually "roleplay" in a cRPG that gives you multiple choice options, so no, I don't take such limited text seriously at all.  Since I'm not going to have nearly as many choices as what I'd have in a true roleplaying game, I'll take entertainment value over the pretense of choice.

Modifié par Graunt, 02 mars 2011 - 12:01 .

[FlintlockJazz]

Graunt wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...
Great work in putting words in my mouth and twisting things to suit your own purpose.  Where did I say that console is inferior or PC superior?  Hell, I didn't even mention DA2 in my post so you are obviously going off on one.  I specifically stated that they were different and that both had advantages and disadvantages, if you cannot accept this then that is your problem and if you are going to attack people for stating that PCs and consoles are different because, shock horror, they are, then I have better things to do than argue with you.  Good day.

Why are you even replying if you aren't going to remain on point with what you quoted in the first place?  You did also mention the "merits" a PC has over a Console and the reason a Console has to play "differently".  Do you even know what you write, or do you simply have temporary amnesia?

Point to where I even said DA2 in my post?  I mentioned DAO, and how it being designed for PC first meant that they had to make changes to accomodate console players on their version because of the difference in platforms.  It was not intended to 'prove' that the PC plays better but that they play differently, it is you who is attempting to turn this into a PC vs Console debate, and being rather nasty and vicious about it completely unwarranted. 

And if you looked at my second post you will see that I added that I quoted the wrong person originally and intended to respond to someone regarding the differences between the PC and console platforms. 

Modifié par FlintlockJazz, 02 mars 2011 - 12:02 .

[Graunt]

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Graunt wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...
Great work in putting words in my mouth and twisting things to suit your own purpose.  Where did I say that console is inferior or PC superior?  Hell, I didn't even mention DA2 in my post so you are obviously going off on one.  I specifically stated that they were different and that both had advantages and disadvantages, if you cannot accept this then that is your problem and if you are going to attack people for stating that PCs and consoles are different because, shock horror, they are, then I have better things to do than argue with you.  Good day.

Why are you even replying if you aren't going to remain on point with what you quoted in the first place?  You did also mention the "merits" a PC has over a Console and the reason a Console has to play "differently".  Do you even know what you write, or do you simply have temporary amnesia?

Point to where I even said DA2 in my post? 

Scroll up to the top of the page and read your own reply.  Again, if you don't even know what the argument is, don't reply to it.

it is you who is attempting to turn this into a PC vs Console debate

No, nice try though.

Modifié par Graunt, 02 mars 2011 - 12:05 .

[Alexus_VG]

Graunt wrote...

Alexus_VG wrote...
Ok Im not going to argue about why I have a high opinion of DA:O as this isn't the thread for that clearly however I think you underestimate how much of an impact even those two difereneces you pointed out yourself make to some players such as myself. The voiceover and lack of "fluff" both make a huge difference in how imersive the game is to me and imersion is one of the very vital elements of a RPG.

The choices were always so transparent that they were not fooling anyone, and it was the difference between "In three seconds I'll kick you in the face!" vs "I would suggest you kindly back away before you see what I'm capable of!".  It's pretty much impossible to actually "roleplay" in a cRPG that gives you multiple choice options, so no, I don't take such limited text seriously at all.

Ofcourse they weren't fooling anyone mate. You dont need to be a brain surgeon to play games but that's hardly the point. Fluff as you call it makes a huge difference for the story and NPS depth and imersion into the world. The two are hard to compare but going with just those two elements I would like to see anyone enjoy reading a fantasy book with all the "fluff" taken out of it. Again Im not saying that this spect of the game should be important to you but don't try to claim it isn't to anyone else.

Modifié par Alexus_VG, 02 mars 2011 - 12:05 .

[Xaltar81]

We clearly have two shools of thaught here, the more clasical RPG fans that want more, even if it is fluff, and the people who prefer what they percieve to be smoother less confusing gameplay. Both are valid playstyles and both have desires reguarding their games. What a number of people have been saying here is that DA2 seems to have digressed from its roots and seems more like a completely new title rather than a sequal to an existing game. Some see it as a new game, others see it as dissapointing that the game seems to only be a sequal due to ties with the original story. While many elements have been carried over to DA2, there are more than enough differences for the game experience to seem alien when compaired to the original. It doesn't really feel like the same dev team was responsible for both games.

Hopefully this will put pay to some of the needless arguements here. DA2 is not DA:O, it is vastly different in many ways, enjoying it or not will only be seen once you play the full game so lets try get this back on topic shall we? What changes you like and which you don't, leave it up to the devs who's opinion they value more.

[Graunt]

Alexus_VG wrote...

Graunt wrote...

Alexus_VG wrote...
Ok Im not going to argue about why I have a high opinion of DA:O as this isn't the thread for that clearly however I think you underestimate how much of an impact even those two difereneces you pointed out yourself make to some players such as myself. The voiceover and lack of "fluff" both make a huge difference in how imersive the game is to me and imersion is one of the very vital elements of a RPG.

The choices were always so transparent that they were not fooling anyone, and it was the difference between "In three seconds I'll kick you in the face!" vs "I would suggest you kindly back away before you see what I'm capable of!".  It's pretty much impossible to actually "roleplay" in a cRPG that gives you multiple choice options, so no, I don't take such limited text seriously at all.

Ofcourse they weren't fooling anyone mate. You dont need to be a brain surgeon to play games but that's hardly the point. Fluff as you call it makes a huge difference for the story and NPS depth and imersion into the world. The two are hard to compare but going with just those two elements I would like to see anyone enjoy reading a fantasy book with all the "fluff" taken out of it. Again Im not saying that this spect of the game should be important to you but don't try to claim it isn't to anyone else.

Well, if "almost" roleplaying, or rather "approximating" what your character would say is important to you, then I'm sorry for your loss.  The games are almost always too limited in what lines they offer you, and it usually boils down to "well, this is kind of what my character would do".  There's usually too many black and white options with next to no grey -- which believe it or not, even the pure good and pure evil characters have a lot of grey things to do and say.

Modifié par Graunt, 02 mars 2011 - 12:09 .

[Matroska]

Graunt, I agree with a lot of what you've been saying but FlintlockJazz did originally state that consoles and PCs each have their advantages. He said that the console version suffered from DA:O being too PC-centric and now the reverse is happening with DA2. I played DA:O on a console and Bioware themselves admitted that the console port was done in the last year of development and was actually outsourced to a different company. A lot of changes to DA2 do seem to affect PC gamers more since the some of the things that are being changed weren't present in the console versions of DA:O anyway.

[FlintlockJazz]

Graunt wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...

Graunt wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...
Great work in putting words in my mouth and twisting things to suit your own purpose.  Where did I say that console is inferior or PC superior?  Hell, I didn't even mention DA2 in my post so you are obviously going off on one.  I specifically stated that they were different and that both had advantages and disadvantages, if you cannot accept this then that is your problem and if you are going to attack people for stating that PCs and consoles are different because, shock horror, they are, then I have better things to do than argue with you.  Good day.

Why are you even replying if you aren't going to remain on point with what you quoted in the first place?  You did also mention the "merits" a PC has over a Console and the reason a Console has to play "differently".  Do you even know what you write, or do you simply have temporary amnesia?

Point to where I even said DA2 in my post? 

Scroll up to the top of the page and read your own reply.  Again, if you don't even know what the argument is, don't reply to it.

I've got a better idea, how about I instead just stop replying to you?  Yeah, you're taking the time away I could be spending on replying to more meaningful posts.  Have fun.

[Alexus_VG]

@ Graunt
lol Well I guess then we will have to agree to disagree and stop spamming the thread on that matter.

[Graunt]

Teclo wrote...

Graunt, I agree with a lot of what you've been saying but FlintlockJazz did originally state that consoles and PCs each have their advantages. He said that the console version suffered from DA:O being too PC-centric and now the reverse is happening with DA2. I played DA:O on a console and Bioware themselves admitted that the console port was done in the last year of development and was actually outsourced to a different company. A lot of changes to DA2 do seem to affect PC gamers more since the some of the things that are being changed weren't present in the console versions of DA:O anyway.

Well yes, there are changes to the game in general since it's focused on console development this time around.  I'm not arguing that there's no changes to the game, but that the gameplay (combat) is literally a carbon copy of Origins.  The combat is one of the main aspects people are fixating on and claiming that it's so drastically different when it's not at all other than speed, and now Warriors and Rogues can get back into the action faster.

Also, have any of you read the PC Gamer review yet?

http://imgur.com/a/cmLbm

Modifié par Graunt, 02 mars 2011 - 12:15 .

[Kahzee Wasabi]

Loved it. The only thing I hate about is that I have to wait till the full game comes out D:

[Xaltar81]

The removal of "excess" lines saying the same thing really does affect a lot of people's play experience, myself included. It may not be important to some how the conclusion was arrived at but it is to others.

I am the guy that reads quests in WoW and trys to figure out the lore of the world. Most don't bother but you don't see Blizzard cutting out the lore because 36% of the players find it annoying. It is optional afterall, just as it was in DA:O. There was nothing stopping you taking the most direct route to a resolution but it was there for those who wanted it. A lot of the replay value in DA:O for me came from exploring different dialogue chains, particularly the meaningless fluff as the writers would often give insights into the characters with such options. So maybe the 2 camps of thought are the movie fans and those of us who prefer a good book.

[Graunt]

Xaltar81 wrote...

We clearly have two shools of thaught here, the more clasical RPG fans that want more, even if it is fluff, and the people who prefer what they percieve to be smoother less confusing gameplay. Both are valid playstyles and both have desires reguarding their games. What a number of people have been saying here is that DA2 seems to have digressed from its roots and seems more like a completely new title rather than a sequal to an existing game. Some see it as a new game, others see it as dissapointing that the game seems to only be a sequal due to ties with the original story. While many elements have been carried over to DA2, there are more than enough differences for the game experience to seem alien when compaired to the original. It doesn't really feel like the same dev team was responsible for both games.

Hopefully this will put pay to some of the needless arguements here. DA2 is not DA:O, it is vastly different in many ways, enjoying it or not will only be seen once you play the full game so lets try get this back on topic shall we? What changes you like and which you don't, leave it up to the devs who's opinion they value more.

I'll pick some choice lines from the PC Gamer reivew (not that I'm claiming it's anything more than a "someone got paid" review mind you...).

Dragon Age 2 does it right.  It's still an RPG epic, it still takes upwards of 50 hours to finish.  It's still got a deep, complex combat system, and it's still got a well-defined supporting cast.  But it's also an RPG that wears it's mythology proudly, confident in it's goal of charting the rise of of a complete and utter badass.  You.

DA2's combat is spring-loaded.  Cooldown periods and time penalities are just as integral as they were in Origins, but this time they happen at the end of lightning fast moves.

Dragon Age 2 is not what you expect.  Hell, even during preview sessions, I hadn't anticipated it being this much of a traditional sequel.

The best RPG combat ever.  Not gaming's best story, but maybe it's best storytelling.  Darker, sexier, better. 94/100.

The removal of "excess" lines saying the same thing really does affect a
lot of people's play experience, myself included. It may not be
important to some how the conclusion was arrived at but it is to others.

If you'll reread what was written, I never said I have an issue with more choices.  What I don't care for is the illusion of choice, when all that's offered is a "well, if I really have to pick something, I guess I'll go with this" scenario.  That happened very frequently and it's just a limitation with every RPG where options like this are given.

Modifié par Graunt, 02 mars 2011 - 12:38 .

[Ikmoney]

I'll start by saying that I am a very big fan of the first game and Bioware in general.

Played the demo on my PC (primary gaming platform) and PS3. IMO it feels like an entirely different game than the first, more action-focused than RPG (yes, I understand that most of what was is technically still there, it just seems like they're an afterthought now).

Not very pleased in the art style. Monsters all seem less Dragon Age-ish, and more like a generic modern fantasy game, including Flemeth.

I suppose after gleaning more of the story, I'd have been more interested in what the characters had to say in cutscenes, but as is, I felt *no* empathy or interest in what they had to say, and actually caught myself skipping cutscenes.

While I understand the need to broaden the appeal of the game to draw more customers, too many design changes have left me seeing almost nothing of what I loved in Dragon Age, here.

I'm sure plenty disagree with me and will enjoy DA2. I, however (as well as most of my like-minded friends) have cancelled my sig. edition pre-order, and hope to see a future installment a bit closer to what we fell in love with.

[Matroska]

Graunt wrote...
Also, have any of you read the PC Gamer review yet?

http://imgur.com/a/cmLbm

That's a great review. It actually mentioned a lot of things that I've been thinking about, like how the choices in Bioware RPGs tend to be pretty light and only affect that quest, some abstract approval/allignment metre, and maybe the ending if the choice is made right at the end of the game - but that in DA2 it's a lot more profound and grounded in an ongoing saga because of the way the story is spread over many years. Of course, Mass Effect 3 should also collect up all your choices from ME1 and ME2 and make them into a pretty special story for each person who plays through the trilogy. I also like how it mentioned that the party banter was pretty dull in DA:O but that it's more memorable and charming in DA2. 

The only bad thing is how the game does almost all take part in the city. This was something I know some people were worried about, while others countered with "most of the game, not ALL of it". I'm fine with the city being really developed and I do love the idea of it becoming like an old friend over the course of the game, but I do think it needs a good amount of outside areas to give it context or else you just get that feeling that you're just in a series of interconnected rooms rather than a city in a real location.

[anyoldname]

Graunt wrote...

FlintlockJazz wrote...
The lack of isometric view does affect gameplay, it alters what you can do, it's a change to gameplay.

A) No it doesn't and it's a personal annoyance not having a wider view.  You can still "see" the same enemies you could always see by manipulating the camera.

Having the top down camera view certainly affected how I played the game and losing it would certainly limit how I played the game. Having tried in the demo, I found I was unable to get the same tactical understanding looking from characters' limited viewpoints as I could in DA:O. That's a change in game play.

Graunt wrote...
Wrong.  Difficulty is not gameplay, it's nothing more than a scalar.

Difficulty is not simply a "scalar" that doesn't affect game play. For example, Friendly Fire does not exist on most difficulty levels, but does exist on Nightmare. That changes gameplay substantially. Unless you want to also ramp up enemy health and damage to probably horrible levels, you are now playing without Friendly Fire whilst if you do set the difficulty to Nightmare, you're playing something quite different. Additionally, difficulty, even in just the "scalar" qualities, does affect gameplay. I could play DA:O on Normal without having to use much in the way of tactics or pay very much attention to character equipment and optimisation. On Nightmare, I had to play the game differently or I would lose. That's again a difference in game play forced by the difficulty level.

Graunt wrote...
And this is relevant to Dragon Age in what way?  The single largest benefit of having a game for a PC over a console when the game is for either platform is graphical enhancements, usually a superior control scheme as well as mods.  That has nothing to do with the default gameplay.

The defaults appear to have all been changed in line with the console.

Graunt wrote...
I really don't understand why you seem to think Bioware is going to develop two seperate games.  DA2:InferiorConsole and DA2:SuperiorPC.  Game developers aren't your friends and they don't care about what your prefered platform is, only that whatever platform sells the most is what they can make the most money off of.

You seem to think stating that 'Bioware doesn't care' removes reasons for people to complain, rather than adds them. But I'm sure the developers do care. They are no doubt under orders from higher-ups who tell them to limit it to console.

[Carol L S]

I have finished the demo a few times while logged in, but I don't get anything telling me that the new items have been unlocked.  Will they just show up when the real game starts?

[Matroska]

Not very pleased in the art style. Monsters all seem less Dragon Age-ish, and more like a generic modern fantasy game, including Flemeth.

Holy ****, I'm facepalming like Bruce Lee here. Flemeth was a generic old lady in DA:O. You could have placed her in the slums of Denerim and she'd have blended in as an NPC - now that's generic. How can you claim that an ordinary, unremarkable old lady is "Dragon Age-ish" but a distinctly designed character with a memorable and specific appearance is generic? DA:O was insanely generic "standard fantasy setting" - either that or ripping of the LotR movies with its designs and even camera angles and set-ups used in cutscenes. Bioware have even stated that they were basically doing the LotR style but the movies did it better so they wanted to carve out their own style with DA2 - which they very much have, a lot more than DA:O anyway.

I swear to god, it's like my internet is linked to some bizarro world where DA2 came out before DA:O and people have everything backwards - you guys are in for a treat in 12 years when Planescape Torment comes out.

[Graunt]

Ikmoney wrote...
Not very pleased in the art style. Monsters all seem less Dragon Age-ish, and more like a generic modern fantasy game, including Flemeth.

I'm a little indifferent with the artistic change.  It's not really any better or worse, simply different.  They traded up a "traditional" (and aged) look for a more modern action game look.  I find it ironic that you think the new look is more generic than what was seen in Origins, when that was about as generic as it got.

Well ok, it was really generic with lots and lots of blood covering everyone's face, hair and armor...

Modifié par Graunt, 02 mars 2011 - 12:42 .

[Matroska]

Carol L S wrote...

I have finished the demo a few times while logged in, but I don't get anything telling me that the new items have been unlocked.  Will they just show up when the real game starts?

Yep, you can actually check the various content you have unlocked for Bioware games (either freebies or paid DLC) by going here. That's also accessible by going to the Profile -> Your Registered Game Promotions on the sidebar of this site.

Modifié par Teclo, 02 mars 2011 - 12:45 .