8659 réponses à ce sujet

[Rutaan]

Beerfish wrote...

"When I saw the combat animations, I nearly went ballistic. This isn't an RPG, it's Sonic the Hedgehog. For all of you who say that combat is greatly improved, please put down the crack pipe and touch base with reality. I don't see how anyone could say with a straight face that this is the way RPG combat should be. I really was prepared to make some sacrifices in the RPG experience because of the prevalence of consoles, but the combat in DA 2 is nothing but a corporate sellout to Ritalin addled kiddies."

Combat has very little to do with the quality of an rpg. There is no problem at all with you disliking the combat style and or animations but it has nothing to do with the story, companions and the players ability to affect the story.

I beg to differ. If combat isn't important, then why is there so much of it? I think that every Fanboy here would have been just as happy if Bioware had opted for 50% less ninja and a sane speed for the combat action.

[In Exile]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Why is this sort of response such a common response in these discussions?  Why do we so often hear or read someone's comment that falls back on the absolute fallacy that once you allow in this or that fantastic element, then everything is fair game, and all fantastic elements are just as legitimate?  Why does someone so often fall back to the broken argument of "How can you talk about realism in a game that allows ________?" 

It isn't a broken argument. Once you grant some unrealistic elements, the argument can't be about realism. It has to be about the kind of unrealism that should be in the game.

Why should the kind of fantastic element that you like take precedent over any other fantastic element? A discussion about "realism" in DA2 isn't about that at all; it's just about whatever taste in presentation some particular group of posters have hidden away behind an appeal to something more reasonable.

[Dlokir]

Rutaan wrote...
...
I beg to differ. If combat isn't important, then why is there so much of it? I think that every Fanboy here would have been just as happy if Bioware had opted for 50% less ninja and a sane speed for the combat action.
...

If there wasn't combat I wouldn't have buy most DAO DLC, I would never have replay DAO and I wouldn't be so curious about DA2 (but ready to be disapointed because of the combats speed).

I'm a bit old and tend repeat again and again the same things, but well, here how I see DAO:

• Combats: Plenty flaws and too many pointless repetitve fights, but when you bother explore the combats, it's a very fun part of the game and the most noteworthy with companions.
• Companions: I didn't like much the separation of deep companion dialogs in camp and almost dead puppets out of the camp appart few joking between them and not related to the adventure and story. Still the deep dialogs in camp is an impressive work and quite an achievement, not fully my cup of tea but impressive.
• Story and story telling: Not the best writing and story telling, we are far from quality of very few RPG like few JRPG, The Witcher, or Fallout 1. But it's a strong value anyway, well done stuff, interesting to follow and good story telling.
• Items and their management: It's not about the crazy overload of items from DLC that end breaking the game balance. But about the overal item design, that succeed to design and provide items to players that are quite noteworthy items and that you won't forget, instead of a mass of "big magical" items that most modern RPG tend provide and you end find them standard and forget all those "big magical" items.

And that's it, I won't detail, but the weak points, area design, poor exploration quality (never been a quality of Bioware games after BG1), almost no puzzles and cool tricks to solve, almost no world interaction, only few interesting user choices including a tendency to fail into choices that are too much back vs white choices, not a good highlighting of users choices consequences (RPG team design should really start to learn that and to begin to look closely how it's managed in the Witcher).

So yes combats in DAO is a very important point, well at least for me.

Modifié par Dlokir, 06 mars 2011 - 06:34 .

[SuperMedbh]

In Exile wrote...
It isn't a broken argument. Once you grant some unrealistic elements, the argument can't be about realism. It has to be about the kind of unrealism that should be in the game.

Not at all, and this is a basic principle of (good) fantasy writing.  Seriously, read what professional fantasy writers have to say on the subject of plausibility and consistency.  The second the reader thinks that anything can happen, you've lost.  Every fantasy world needs its boundaries.

The key for immersion is to present a realistic world with defined elements of fantasy in it.  Is that dragon a cartoon?  Or does it have a real life cycle?  When it slams into the ground, can you feel it?  Are its flight animations derived from real flying animals?  Take a guess which dragon is scary:  the cartoon or the realistic one.  Sure, an animal the size of a house couldn't really fly.  But by using real elements, the suspension of disbelief is easier.

Combat in DAO was fantatic.  Swords aren't really that big, and many of the tactics/abilities were extreme exaggerations of what is possible.  But, at least for me, it didn't break that suspension of disbelief.  The combat on Normal in the demo did--  it was like wading through waves of exploding Hurlocks.  Once I was able to play on a higher difficulty, it felt less absurd.  But the animations still push the envelope for me.

[Thy Bleed]

Will we be able to become a Grey Warden in this game?

And can the other characters equip different armors like in DAO?

Modifié par Thy Bleed, 06 mars 2011 - 06:35 .

[Sidney]

In Exile wrote...

Why should the kind of fantastic element that you like take precedent over any other fantastic element? A discussion about "realism" in DA2 isn't about that at all; it's just about whatever taste in presentation some particular group of posters have hidden away behind an appeal to something more reasonable.

Well and there was plenty of unreal stuff in DAO or things where the physics were just wrong - we'll ignore magic since magic is by definition super natural and just look at stupid, ninja-y, anime type things that happen just off the top of my head:

Punisher - 3 swings, no slow down like your foe ain't even there
Scattershot - just seriously, how what?
Burst Shot - see scattershot above as to how WTF is this?
Bullet time...err arrow time
Rain of Arrows - So I fired a lot of arrows at the time time, riiiiiiiight. Can I ride a shield like a skateboard at the same time too?
Indominatable  - which says my force of will is enough to stop a dragon from knocking me down.
Two Handed Sweep - Relies sweeping past enemies that don't slow your blade to hit more than 1 dude
Whirlwind - same thing
Sweeping Strike  - same thing
Onslought - same thing
Massacre - same thing
Two handed Impact - You create a shock wave, a shock wave? Thank god we're into "realism" here
Juggernaut - You basically blow through multiple foes like a might Xman by the same name
War Cry w/ Superiority - You can shout so loud you knock people down. Yoko Ono in armor?
Frightening Appearance - You are wearing a helmet but making faces (as opposed that that huge sword) is what scares people?
Feign Death - Oh please, that is fooling anyone?
Stealth - Whole thing makes no sense *poof* I vanish is ok but "poof* I teleport isn't?
Bards Skills - They're not magical and somehow they are able to sing and fight, at least in BG they could do one or the other
Ranger - where do they summon a bear from? Again, they aren't magical but no one is having kittens about finding  a bear in the deep roads - and actually a lot of them dependiong upon how careful you are with them.

So let's not act like there wasn't a metric raftload of goofy, over-the-top type things in DAO even exempting magic. This isn't new to DA2.

[Dlokir]

Sidney wrote...
...
Bards Skills - They're not magical and somehow they are able to sing and fight, at least in BG they could do one or the other
...

Lol nice list but with this point you seem choose the side of realism at any price, I don't agree and that point is a good example why, that was a very weird design of Bards in BG, DAO choice is a lot better.

[HonourBorn]

Male 2H Warrior: lot's of fun to play and felt completely devastating when i had the higher level abilities.

Male SS Warrior: I really like the visceral feel of the combat with sword and shield an the combos are pretty fancy.

Male DW Rogue: Felt very fast and agile in comparison to origins, and the abilities were very deadly.

Male Bow rogue: Very powerful and swift, and i just love that arrow volley ability.

Male Mage: I love the new animations, and the meteor shower spell you get is great.

[Fixxzer]

I'm sure this has been said plenty of times already, but I wanted to add my 2 cents (and didn't feel like reading all 400 pages of replies for this forum).

1. Near impossible to read the text / subtitles.  Bigger font, clearer text with a contrasting background maybe.

2.  For the love of all that is holy DO NOT make me spam the A button the entire game.

Other than that, really enjoyed playing through the xbox 360 demo.  Look forward to the release.

[Magi_the_Solona]

I loved the game once i entered the place which hayder and his mates reside. Ended the game
as a rogue without any crash during playing as this female character. She was gorgeous
in terms of combat, especially deadly with her "rush" ability. The part i experienced difficulties most
was the place where i met hurlock apprentice standing like a statue. Even hayder didn't
prevent me cos i had a companion called Isabela.

[HonourBorn]

And by the way, realism holds no bearing on what should be in a fantasy game, rather it is the believability of the subject when placed in the games world.

[fatha123]

I played the demo as a male warrior shield & sword. I am for my second run going to play as a rouge. Then as a mage, either way i am going to play as a warrior male in the full version.

[Dlokir]

HonourBorn wrote...

And by the way, realism holds no bearing on what should be in a fantasy game, rather it is the believability of the subject when placed in the games world.

Mmm Kill Bill movies doesn't provide any explanation about the supernatural abilities during the fights, it's just like that, a choice, no explanation and it works. 

You'll answer me that DA2 is in same world than DA1 so it should have follow the same conventions. I agree but then I have a simple solution, just imagine DA2 is a new game and that's it. 

[In Exile]

SuperMedbh wrote...

Not at all, and this is a basic principle of (good) fantasy writing.  Seriously, read what professional fantasy writers have to say on the subject of plausibility and consistency.  The second the reader thinks that anything can happen, you've lost.  Every fantasy world needs its boundaries.

You're conflating two things: realism and plausibilt/buy-in.

A fantasy writer has to abandon realism. That's the core of the genre. A low magic setting like A Song of Ice and Fire still has incredible supernatural elements by our standard. It is not realistic at all.

What a fantasy writer can't abandon is the plausible buy-in by the reader. There have to be set rules that allow the reader to set up expectations, and then not have those expectations violated.

These two issues are not the same. A human could be written to leap hundreds of feet in the air without breaking suspension of disbelief. But if mid-way through the story that human also gains (without explanation) the power to become invisible, then never uses it again (and perhaps invisibility is mentioned as impossible in the story) then the reader no longer buys in.

With DA2 (and fantasy in general) people have different types of "unrealism" they like. Some people want magic but not acrobatics. Some want the reverse. Some want both. When these tastes are violated, there's resistance.

But none of that is realism.

The key for immersion is to present a realistic world with defined elements of fantasy in it.  Is that dragon a cartoon?  Or does it have a real life cycle?  When it slams into the ground, can you feel it?  Are its flight animations derived from real flying animals?  Take a guess which dragon is scary:  the cartoon or the realistic one.  Sure, an animal the size of a house couldn't really fly.  But by using real elements, the suspension of disbelief is easier.

No; by using plausible elements, suspension of disbelief is easier. But these elements need not be realistic.

For example, if the dragon is heavy enough to shake the ground when moving, flight is ridiculously implausible. 

Combat in DAO was fantatic.  Swords aren't really that big, and many of the tactics/abilities were extreme exaggerations of what is possible.  But, at least for me, it didn't break that suspension of disbelief.  The combat on Normal in the demo did--  it was like wading through waves of exploding Hurlocks.  Once I was able to play on a higher difficulty, it felt less absurd.  But the animations still push the envelope for me.

Combat in DA:O is ridiculous. Multiple hits lead to no damage or incapacitation. Fire does not immediately burn armour. Bodies can be chomped on by dragons without injury. 2H swords are used like baseball bats.

The whole thing is ridiculous. I can't stand it because it tries to pretend to be gritty and real when it isn't at all.

This is precisely the issue: what you or I find plausible, and so what allows us to buy-in, is not the same.

And that's the entire point.

[Kajukenbo]

For the record, I've played the DA2 demo -several times as the different classes and sexes- on the 360.
I am not impressed. I have beaten DA:O at least 6 times and have all of the DLC.
The only DLC I haven't beaten at least 3 times is "Witch Hunt" because I lent my DA:O disc to a friend.
The other DLC was considerate enough to let me use my Awakenings disc.

I am as disappointed (if not more so) as many of the PC gamers who have said this is a hack&slash game that does away with the need for strategy or tactics. They are correct.
This is no longer a RPG from what I can see from the demo.

1) No emotional content or involvement
  I did not care what happened to my brother/sister or the templar at all.
  Heck, I did not care about any of the characters, including Hawke.
  If Hawke fell down after relentless spamming of attacks, I just switched to a standing PC
  I did not worry about healing him/her or anyone else. Bad sign.

2) In DA:O you paid for spamming the same series of attacks and ignoring the other PCs
  If you did not have a sound strategy and reasonable tactics you would be mobbed and die
  Running after your party fell meant the darkspawn would follow you until you aggro'ed more...
  Did not see that consequence here in any playthrough

3) The frantic / frenetic button mashing is not more exciting, is it a waste of my time.
  If I wanted to mash buttons then I would not be playing a RPG!
  Hopefully some sort of options will be available at release to turn on the old functionality
  For the record, the whole point of training in boxing, BJJ, Wing Chun or anything else is to "auto-attack"
  You react without much thought or effort and then you look for the opportunity to execute a finish, combo, etc.
  In DA:O you auto-attacked and waited to use a power or ability; this worked well and I appreciated it
  It is a RPG, so hitting and damage is automatic, based on by skill, attributes and opposition like RL
  Auto-attack gives me time to check other PC tactics and strategies instead relying on AI
  Button-mashing means you are thinking of one PC instead of all of them, IMO
  Button-mashing is the PnP equivalent of telling the GM "I attack".."I attack again".. No real tactics or strategy

4) 10 yard "force jumps" and teleporting backstabs are not "cool animations" for the rogue, they are dumb
  How about having the rogue roll past an attacker to get to his back and then perform a backstab?
  How about adding a takedown as an upgrade instead of more magic effects? - THAT would be cool!
  How about the Evade being a "simple" backflip and counterattack, or better yet, a side breakfall and sweep?
  If I wanted to use magic powers I would play a different class.

5) Why does the rogue (and warrior for that matter) now have weapons that are so long as to be ludicrious?
  I teach FMA (Escrima/Kali/Arnis) as part of my role as a Defensive Tactics & Combatives Instructor.
  I challenge the Devs or anyone else to try to draw weapons of these lengths from behind their backs
  My 20 years of experience says it cannot be done with any reasonable degree of speed or precision, if at all.
  Daggers and short, fast weapons were the right idea, bring them back

6) Maybe this is just the demo, but why can't I set potions in the Tactics menu anymore?
  I tried for about 10 minutes to figure out how to drink potions if health or mana dropped too low
  The "improved" fast potion option is not an improvement to me
  Bring the Tactics > Use Item thing back

7) Considering this is a Mature rated game, why are the character proportions so ridiculous?
  It isn't like 38DD-sized cartoon breasts are going to appeal to the average adult
  Maybe it will interest a few people who have not seen real cleavage before but that is a different issue
  Same goes for biceps, etc that would impress Ah-nold.

8) The new character models are somewhat disappointing
  Flemeth is now a babe? Really? Don't get me started on the hair.
  Darkspawn are now skeletal zombies? They were a lot more foreboding before.
  The ogre does look better now, but he was a lot easier to kill than the first time in DA:O

9) Maybe this is the demo again, but where was Lothering or signs of the Horde?
  I did not see the town & I surely did not fight my way out of or through it
  Where is the burning, the destruction, the devastation from the darkspawn?
  I was just strolling down the path, spamming guys as they appeared. Meh.

10) If Hawke is the Champion and the greatest hero ever then what about the Warden?
  More powerful than the Warden?  Really?
  With rumours that the game will be shorter than DA:O, has the level cap raised to make him so strong?
  Why hasn't the Warden heard of Hawke by the time he beats the Archie?
  Why didn't the Warden seek out such a super-human ally, when most of DA:O was just for that purpose?
  I can only hope this will be answered -to everyone's satisfaction- in game as well.

I have pre-ordered the Signature Edition but I must say, I feel like I might be regretting it.

The DA2 demo reminds me so far of ME2 where it turned almost into an "Action RPG", like the X-Men games.
Collect orbs, power up & move on. The RP element took a back seat to button mashing.
"Role-Playing Game", eh?  It used to mean more than a vague story tied to improving your abilities.
You would think they would keep the RP in the forefront, since it is in the front of the name...

This may be the second time (that I know of) which Bioware took a good RPG and turned it into an "action" game with RPG elements. If so, it will be the LAST time I buy a game from them.

Modifié par Kajukenbo, 06 mars 2011 - 08:48 .

[Looper128]

About auto attack.

Seb Hanlon

The final implementation for auto-attack on console is actually a toggle in the options menu, if I recall correctly. You don't have to open the radial menu every time. This may not be present in the demo build, but don't worry, it's there in the final game.



That being said, this is a five-month-old thread that probably didn't need necro'ing.

source: http://social.biowar...index/4827188/3

[Thy Bleed]

Thy Bleed wrote...

1. Will we be able to become a Grey Warden in this game?

2. And can the other characters equip different armors like in DAO?

Does anyone know the answer to these questions?

[In Exile]

Thy Bleed wrote...

Thy Bleed wrote...

1. Will we be able to become a Grey Warden in this game?

2. And can the other characters equip different armors like in DAO?

Does anyone know the answer to these questions?

I do not know re: 1, but based on what I've seen of the plot from the demo, I would wager that no, you cannot.

For 2, you can change equipment (rights, belts, necklaces) and the apparently armour is upgradeable in some way, but we don't know what that means. Visually, we cannot change companion armour.

[Dlokir]

In Exile wrote...

Thy Bleed wrote...

Thy Bleed wrote...

1. Will we be able to become a Grey Warden in this game?

2. And can the other characters equip different armors like in DAO?

Does anyone know the answer to these questions?

I do not know re: 1, but based on what I've seen of the plot from the demo, I would wager that no, you cannot.

For 2, you can change equipment (rights, belts, necklaces) and the apparently armour is upgradeable in some way, but we don't know what that means. Visually, we cannot change companion armour.

I don't know for point 1.

For point 2, the main character is like in DAO about equipements. But companions have all a personal armor set you can't change. This includes Boots, Armor, Helmet and Gloves. This armor set seems to automatically upgrade according to the level.

For companions you can only customize: Weapons (one or two), Shield, Two rings, A necklace, a belt.

EDIT: to anticipate the complain yes it's bad. But myself I'd like have it like an option. Ie for each companion you could use or not a special companion armor set that automatically upgrade. I admit that often I felt more like a burden to have to optimize the equipement of a whole party. But it's not good to have reduce the possibilities for companions, with no options.

Modifié par Dlokir, 06 mars 2011 - 08:00 .

[Thy Bleed]

Wow, talk about a step backwards..

[In Exile]

Dlokir wrote...
For point 2, the main character is like in DAO about equipements. But companions have all a personal armor set you can't change. This includes Boots, Armor, Helmet and Gloves. This armor set seems to automatically upgrade according to the level.

For companions you can only customize: Weapons (one or two), Shield, Two rings, A necklace, a belt.

EDIT: to anticipate the complain yes it's bad. But myself I'd like have it like an option. Ie for each companion you could use or not a special companion armor set that automatically upgrade. I admit that often I felt more like a burden to have to optimize the equipement of a whole party. But it's not good to have reduce the possibilities for companions, with no options.

Last I checked, Mike Laidlaw said we could customize statistically the armour of our companions to some extent. So I think that while visually the upgrade is automatic, I do think we have the ability to manipulate statistics.

Re: your edit: If they were going to give you that option, a toggle (like the helmet toggle) could work. So if you enable it, companions keep a default apperance but also keep the stats of the new armour. If you don't and swap out the default, you get whatever generic apperance that armour has.

That'd be a compromise I'd be fine with, since I highly value unique apperances.

[Kitsukaru]

From what I have seen, BioWare, I am disappointed. Either you were rushed by EA or simply too lazy, I don't know. But this seems like a huge step back from Origins. It feels childish. Dark Fantasy? I feel like I'm playing something by Disney.

[Gyroscopic_Trout]

Dlokir wrote...

HonourBorn wrote...

And by the way, realism holds no bearing on what should be in a fantasy game, rather it is the believability of the subject when placed in the games world.

Mmm Kill Bill movies doesn't provide any explanation about the supernatural abilities during the fights, it's just like that, a choice, no explanation and it works. 

You'll answer me that DA2 is in same world than DA1 so it should have follow the same conventions. I agree but then I have a simple solution, just imagine DA2 is a new game and that's it. 

There are plenty of completely over the top, unrealistic fantasy novels that are quite well written.  Terry Pratchet's Discworld novels, or Stephen Erikson's Malazen Books of the Fallen, to name two completely polar opposite examples.

[SuperMedbh]

In Exile wrote...

SuperMedbh wrote...

Not at all, and this is a basic principle of (good) fantasy writing.  Seriously, read what professional fantasy writers have to say on the subject of plausibility and consistency.  The second the reader thinks that anything can happen, you've lost.  Every fantasy world needs its boundaries.

You're conflating two things: realism and plausibilt/buy-in.

A fantasy writer has to abandon realism. That's the core of the genre. A low magic setting like A Song of Ice and Fire still has incredible supernatural elements by our standard. It is not realistic at all.

What a fantasy writer can't abandon is the plausible buy-in by the reader. There have to be set rules that allow the reader to set up expectations, and then not have those expectations violated.

Well, props for using the word "conflate" in a sentence.  I thought I was the only one who did that.  But I while I'll agree with the notion that you can't willy-nilly break the already established rules of the world, I'll disagree with the concept that once realism is broken, all is fair game <insert silly analogy to virginity here>.

Simply because you have dragons doesn't mean that the players/readers won't be irritated when a horde of Orlesian Teletubbies show up to save Ferelden.  Everyone knows that Teletubbies have British accents.

Modifié par SuperMedbh, 06 mars 2011 - 08:17 .

[Wompoo]

Thy Bleed wrote...

Thy Bleed wrote...

1. Will we be able to become a Grey Warden in this game?

2. And can the other characters equip different armors like in DAO?

Does anyone know the answer to these questions?

Hmmm first one should be common knowledge, no you cannot be a sacrifical lamb/warden destined to die (thank god).
Second one, no, although they appear to get their own upgradable armor... as far as I know.