8659 réponses à ce sujet

[theriddlen]

Graphics still worse than ME1... (Why?)
Runs not fluently. (And this is a computer that nicely handles Crysis 1 [2 has lower requirements] on DX11 graphics).
Also, BioWare have done something that i though of as a impossible thing - made general gameplay and controls worse than in crappy DA:O.

You know, every talented man in BioWare seems to be working on ME3... maybe someone in there should ask one of them to help out those fourth-graders that make DA.
Ahh, and describe to them what does the word "Dark" mean, because they think it's "Brown, dull and generic".

[Kill3rN1nja]

yah and they said ME2 was better then 1 (not), and yet most of the game was doing quests for your party, in the end its all opinion. its all give and take

[Biotic Budah]

I still say Hitler put it best....

[thelonegunman84]

amaltheaelanor wrote...

The Good:

I like that combat moves so much faster, and that that abilities are executed immediately.  In particular, I was glad to see this for archers, as abilities like Pinning Shot seemed almost worthless to me in the first game due to how long they took to execute.

The Bad:

I don't like that the AI takes control of the other characters in my party after they successfully kill an enemy, even after I've unchecked all the boxes in the tactics screen.  I understand this was probably done so that characters don't mindlessly stand around after defeating someone while the carnage continues around them; but in both Origins and BG, I always enjoyed being able to shut of all AI, and having complete control of my characters.  I'm more comfortable disabiling all tactics/AI and intense micromanaging, especially as it means that I'm the one that actually succeeded in completing a battle, and not me sharing the victory with the computer.

The Tab button no longer highlights character/enemy names and health meters during combat.  Combined with my first complaint, this meant I spent a significant amount of battle having trouble keeping track of who was fighting who from moment to moment, especially as I can no longer use the tab button to see which of my enemies are still alive (which becomes difficult to tell since it takes long enough for enemies to fall down after they die, they look like they're still alive).  These two combined were the primary reason why I spent the demo feeling like the computer was significantly in control, and I was just playing a part.  So overall, a less satisfactory experience, as I enjoy doing more than just watch the combat.

I already knew beforehand that the top-down perspective for the camera is gone, and I think I can probably get used to it.  However, it does make lining up AoE abilities considerably trickier, and some of those icon line-ups were difficult enough to manage in the first game.

I'm unsure if this was more due to me or the game (I'd like to think it wasn't me considering how long I spent playing Origins) but I kept noticing that after I would pause the game and issue new orders, some of my companions would take off and start attacking someone else entirely.  I finally realized that it must be due somehow to the ordering of abilities and what enemy to attack.  So, for instance:
If my PC is attacking Hurlock A
Aveline is attacking Hurlock B
Bethany is attacking Hurlock C
I pause the game and tell my PC to perform a backstab, then without specifying who to attack (as she is already attacking Hurlock I tell Aveline to perform a Shield Bash.  But when I unpause, Aveline attacks Hurlock A rathern than Hurlock B with a Shield Bash.  It's like the game is making me re-specify who each of my companions should be performing a given ability against, rather than just defaulting to who they were already attacking, like in the first game.  Is this just me, or has anyone else had this problem?


Anyway, so I completed a second run-through of the demo as a Rogue (first time was done as a Warrior) last night.  I was actually pretty pleased at how much micro-managing was required of me to defeat the Ogre with the party, so that made me more enthusiastic.  I'm also going to assume that the prologue - where Verrin even admits to it being The Legend - is more like pitting someone of a considerably greater leveling against first tier monsters (if that makes sense) and so hopefully is not indicative of the difficulty scaling in the game.  I mean, that section is fun to watch and play with all the abilities, but I feel it becomes boring fast because it's almost too easy.  So I'm going to take more from the obvious increased difficulty the second time you fight the Ogre.

That being said, I'm upgrading my enthusiasm for this game from "wary" to "cautiously optimistic."  I sincerely doubt I will like it as much as the first (and then if I'm wrong, I'll be pleasantly surprised) but I'm hoping for a decent gaming experience at the very least.

Couldn't have put it better myself. Overall, going by the demo the things you mentioned are exactly what I have been finding a little frustrating, but I will be able to put up with them so long as the story delivers and I have faith that Bioware will do just that, they haven't really let me down yet.

[Sidney]

sreaction wrote...
There is hope though, though EA/Bioware does not provide it.
There is still Fallout 3, FO3 New Vegas, The Witcher 2, The Elder
Scrolls V and hopelfully more.

Wait, DA2 is a an "Action RPG" and FO and TES aren't. Wait hold on I can't wait to hear you defend this position.

In an action RPG you push a button and make your character do things as opposed to having your chaarcter execute something like a combo for you you have to hit A+B+B or something?  We already know DA2 offers auto-attack so it will play straight like DAO if you want it to. How is that MORE actiony than FO where you have shooter controls? I spent most of NV sniping people like it was CoD - in fact between sniping and having to lockpick and hack computers there's not much my PC actually did for me in the game other than his built in Barter.  In TES games I have to swing my sword myself, I raise my shield by clicking a button my character doesn't automatically blocks attacks with a shield. I have to aim bows at targets. All of that is lot more twitch factor and action than anything on the DA2 controls.

Wait, there's more for the Bioware is selling us out crowd. FO doesn't let you control party members - and their tactical control is a LOT lower than anything in DA2. Tactics are shoot or stab things, stay back or stay close. Seriously THAT is better? You can't pick their gun in NV and they're kinda picky about their armor as well if you ever tried to put Legion armor on Boone. Combat is a whole lot faster in both games than in DAO so I guess they're just for the dumbed down crowd.

There's also no tactical view in TES or FO so I have no idea how people cast fireballs or use Fat Boy's w/o killing everyone around them based on the whining and simpering about that camera. You can't choose race in FO and you have a pre-determined background in all of the games you discussed.

I mean the worst part about so much of the griping here is that it isn't even internally coherent about what they want in a game.

[Biotic Budah]

I'm hoping the full game will be smoother.

[Supreme-Jim]

What I want in a game...

To be fun...
DA2 looks like tons of fun.

The end.

[RUDAL]

Ferelden92 wrote...

dreadknott wrote...

for the extra items unlocked from completing the demo, is it consol specific on how they are unlocked? ie. i play and finish the demo on my computer but want the items on the xbox?

Yeh you get it on what format u play it on, so your gunna have to download the xbox one im afraid. 

Naah. I played demo on PC and I can see the items on my list aviable for all platforms.

[Chob]

Supreme-Jim wrote...

What I want in a game...

To be fun...
DA2 looks like tons of fun.

The end.

Fun, dynamic, good story, good musics = Win

[Rutaan]

Biotic Budah wrote...

I still say Hitler put it best....

LOL!  Those Youtube pranksters have so much energy.

[wakkkkkkkkkkka]

hahaha funnn stuff..the archer pulls arrows out of thin air which is eh..and if you play mage the templar doesn't even mention you being an apostate

[Kajukenbo]

Dlokir wrote...
You should try make a list of what's good in the demo. 

I did.. I said the ogre looks better...

Beyond that I did not see anything I liked, besides the fact that it is a DA title; familiar world, story line, etc.
The only other "plus" I can think of is that maybe the mage seemed more playable and balanced from what I could see in the demo.

With all of the options and such turned off (demo), I will have to see if the things I did not like are mitigated in the full game.  Maybe there will be other things I WILL like but there was not a whole lot that I DID like enough for me to list and expound on them.

I reviewed what I had available and I gave my thoughts on it.

IMO, Bioware took something that worked and changed it. 
I realize that you cannot please everyone but I feel trying to make a RPG into an action game was a mistake.

YMMV

Modifié par Kajukenbo, 07 mars 2011 - 12:16 .

[Vaeron]

Even when I spam the Health Potion button, no one will ever drink a potion, ever, unless they don't need to... For example, a character will be badly injured, and after attacking instead of drinking a health potion like I tell them to several times, when they die the person next in line will drink the potion the injured person was supposed to.

[IEK07]

Ferelden92 wrote...

Stealthy Cake wrote...

 But i just have a little question about the bows... where is the damn arrow bag?

AND where is the bow string!!!!! lool

as an archer fan i find myself asking these same questions Dx

[sreaction]

Sidney wrote...

sreaction wrote...
There is hope though, though EA/Bioware does not provide it.
There is still Fallout 3, FO3 New Vegas, The Witcher 2, The Elder
Scrolls V and hopelfully more.

Wait, DA2 is a an "Action RPG" and FO and TES aren't. Wait hold on I can't wait to hear you defend this position.

In an action RPG you push a button and make your character do things as opposed to having your chaarcter execute something like a combo for you you have to hit A+B+B or something?  We already know DA2 offers auto-attack so it will play straight like DAO if you want it to. How is that MORE actiony than FO where you have shooter controls? I spent most of NV sniping people like it was CoD - in fact between sniping and having to lockpick and hack computers there's not much my PC actually did for me in the game other than his built in Barter.  In TES games I have to swing my sword myself, I raise my shield by clicking a button my character doesn't automatically blocks attacks with a shield. I have to aim bows at targets. All of that is lot more twitch factor and action than anything on the DA2 controls.

Wait, there's more for the Bioware is selling us out crowd. FO doesn't let you control party members - and their tactical control is a LOT lower than anything in DA2. Tactics are shoot or stab things, stay back or stay close. Seriously THAT is better? You can't pick their gun in NV and they're kinda picky about their armor as well if you ever tried to put Legion armor on Boone. Combat is a whole lot faster in both games than in DAO so I guess they're just for the dumbed down crowd.


or FO so I have no idea how people cast fireballs or use Fat Boy's w/o killing everyone around them based on the whining and simpering about that camera. You can't choose race in FO and you have a pre-determined background in all of the games you discussed.

I mean the worst part about so much of the griping here is that it isn't even internally coherent about what they want in a game.

Hey, keep your panties on dude;



I did not say that FO3 and Oblivion are not action games. Please read the
post

.

I did not make a direct comparison between the two other than suggest that
I enjoyed or hope to enjoy these games in the future.



I made no direct comparison to combat citing that one approach was better than
the other. Combat in DA series compared to FO3 and TES is like comparing apples
and oranges.



I made no mention of nor did I whine or complain about the camera, I assume
you mean the isometric view.



In short I didn’t make mention of really anything you said in your rant. Your
rant is based on faulty assumptions.


What I did say is that I think DAII is taking a step backwards in its move
toward the console centric action game. Also, I did intimate that I think the
games I cited, with the exception of TW, were more enjoyable and have the
potential to be more enjoyable than it looks like DAII is. Also, anything
that was subtracted from DAO and oversimplified in DAII is a step backwards for
the game and hence the genre.


Now, there are slew of definitions on what an action RPG is and hardly anyone
will agree on any one definition. So let me say this, DAII is becoming
more console centric i.e. simplified, appealing to an audience which likes
things to be fast, ultra visually stimulating and easy to play. I am not part
of that crowd.


Now, let me clarify what I like and what I don’t like about the DAII Demo


Hyperactive combat

Lack of the need to use your party members

Slimmed down PC options

Slimmed down skills tree

Cartoon like graphics

Comic book like combat moves, leaping 20 yards,

Infinite endurance in spite of moving around like a whirlwind (rogue)

Disappearing and reappearing for backstabs (rogue)

Regenerating health in combat (though I’m not sure that is going to cross over
to the actual game).

The dummy dialog wheel (and it looks like the dialog options are less complex).

Lack of connection to the player character, forcefeed pc with limited options and choices (this also goes for Gerart of Rivia in The Witcher).

Lack of the ability to multi-class. In DAO I consider a dual wield warrior or a
rogue in heavy armor an abstract of multi-classing.

Etc.


In the DAII demo I really didn’t put much thought into the combat. It was, move
attack, move attack, overly stated special attack, jump 20 yard to the next
opponent, ninja like twin fang attack, run like a sprinter, kill everything and
never break a sweat rinse and repeat. I didn’t worry about the other party
members. I made it through the demo just on the strength of a single pc. It was
boring.



Oh, I like the story.


I guess it’s a bit off topic but I think your mistaken when you say that FO3 is
"more twitch factor"


Here is a definition: tactics

a
: the science and art of disposing and maneuvering forces in combat b
: the art or skill of employing available means to accomplish an end.



Everything you do in combat in TES and FO3 is tactical. If you choose to charge
in like a banshee or creep around like a thief; these are tactical choices of
combat. Also, the pause function and VATS diminish the twitch factor. How you
decide to approach that game is really is a choice.


The tactics in those games are limited by your imagination. You can bypass
enemies, ambush enemies, snipe enemies and also use VATS or not. I think FO3 is
great action RPG that allows you to employ complex tactics in combat.

If the Demo is a true precursor of the game, I ain't buying it. There are so many other options that are more appealing.


And finally don’t take it personal dude. My likes and dislikes of the game don’t
have to match up to yours.

Modifié par sreaction, 07 mars 2011 - 01:04 .

[Dlokir]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Dlokir wrote...

Thanksfully it seems they bring some improvements like:

• Longuer potions cooldown to force you use more tactical fighting and abusing less of potions.

I'll never understand that attitude... why would I want a game to force me to do something?

A game isn't simply a contents, there's the notion of challenge, and then there are rules and balances. You can consider rules as bad but that's what makes the game, it's not only a story.

As it was the rules was broken and it was too easy to just chain potions drinking to solve any combat causing some problem, instead of searching new tactics to solve it.

If you found the combat too hard there's always the option to use the easy difficulty.

[Dlokir]

sreaction wrote...
...
In the DAII demo I really didn’t put much thought into the combat. It was, move
attack, move attack, overly stated special attack, jump 20 yard to the next
opponent, ninja like twin fang attack, run like a sprinter, kill everything and
never break a sweat rinse and repeat. I didn’t worry about the other party
members. I made it through the demo just on the strength of a single pc. It was
boring.
...

I noticed this big hole too, if some enemies was using long range it wouldn't be that easy. It's also because no enemy are fast enough and you can hit and escape before being hit back.

But in DAO there are fights also with no long range and you can do similar thing. I just win the dwarf arena doing such tactics because I wanted win it at any price. Stun with the rogue special attack, hit hit hit, run until the talent cooldown is up, stun, hit hit hit, and so on. Does that mean DAO fights are a crap? 

I think you are jumping to a conclusion too fast. I agree that the hole seems bigger in DA2 but well it depends of the fights design that can disable this hole. Also you could try the same in Nightmare, not sure why but I think there's much more possibility of errors when using such approach making it quite difficult. I was loosing a fight so end trying such approach and still failed in Nightmare.

[Sidney]

sreaction wrote...

Hyperactive combat

Lack of the need to use your party members

Slimmed down PC options

Slimmed down skills tree

Cartoon like graphics

Comic book like combat moves, leaping 20 yards,

Infinite endurance in spite of moving around like a whirlwind (rogue)

Disappearing and reappearing for backstabs (rogue)

Regenerating health in combat (though I’m not sure that is going to cross over
to the actual game).

The dummy dialog wheel (and it looks like the dialog options are less complex).

Lack of connection to the player character, forcefeed pc with limited options and choices (this also goes for Gerart of Rivia in The Witcher).

Lack of the ability to multi-class. In DAO I consider a dual wield warrior or a
rogue in heavy armor an abstract of multi-classing.

Etc.

I get you don't like it but I think you, and so many like you, are plain flat out making stuff up or looking for things to be bothered by. No game is perfect - I'd love to see DAO's craptastic inventory systrem and vendor trash-o-rama looting go away in DA2 but I'm not having kitten about it still being there despite being the worst part of the first game.

Combat moves faster, that <> actiony. How much slower would it have to move to not be a "console" game? 10%, 20%, is DAO as fast as "tactical" combat can move for you? Pause, issue orders, attacks, pause, the combat plays out exactly the same as DAO and frankly going all the way back to BG which was a LOT harder to follow thanks to the tiny men battling on screen.

You sure did need to use your party members - did you play past the opeing memory because I was using everyone.  I see a lot of gripes and I suspect a lot of poeple played the "legend" and not the reality.

The skills trees are slimmed down? Sure doesn't look like it. They appear to be more compleix in terms of requirements and options than the linear DAO ones.  I know not going A->B-->C is confusing and scary but it'll all be ok. I'm not counting but if they lost anything it was a matter of degrees not magnitude. DA2 has a LOT more skills than FO or BG for example. You certainly can't argue that.

Graphics are personal taste but the only "cartoony" things are the washed out Darkspawn that look so jagged I thought they were from an alpha build. I think the Bioware team made a mistake with that re-design (and I assume those are part of the Throne of Blood look to things) but I can cope with ugly - I thought the massive armor from DAO was improbable and silly looking much like Star Fang and all the mauls.

Comic book moves? I listed all the "defies the laws of physics" moves from DAO in another post and there is a lot of the same stuff only more "spinning" than "jumping". Is spinning less comic booky than jumping. I never know.

Disappearing. Again, stealth did the same thing only w/o the stabby - stabby bit. No one balked at that in DAO.

Regeneration. You did regenmerate during combat in DAO - just a lot more slowly than in exploration. Much like comabt, is there an acceptable level of in combat regeneration?

Dialog wheel. The fact that DAO typed out your 3 responses made them a lot deeper.

Lack of connection. I'd like to introduce you to The Nameless One, the Vault Dweller and the Bhaalspawn just to name a few - oh and the Grey Warden. These people aren't tabula rasa in any game they have a point and story and that is what you show up to play. Picking hair color and race are meaningless aestheitc choices you might as well rail on the lack of purple hair and eye liner for men.

Multi-classing. You admit DAO didn't have it but you "thought" there were things like it so just pretend that something in DA2 is multi-classing as well.

I just keep seeing a lot of the same "it isn't like it was" stuff and most of that appears to be bunk. I see folks talking death of old school RPG's but the old school RPG's aren't what people throught they were either or else people only played BG2 among all the old RPG's.

[Kajukenbo]

Sidney wrote...
I just keep seeing a lot of the same "it isn't like it was" stuff and most of that appears to be bunk. I see folks talking death of old school RPG's but the old school RPG's aren't what people throught they were either or else people only played BG2 among all the old RPG's.

FWIW, as a person who played the original Wizardy series, Bard's Tale, etc. back in the '80's and considering that original Baldur's Gate 1 did not come out until 1998, I think I am qualified to say that DA2 does not appear to be an "old-school RPG".  I have said previously that the demo for DA2 did not feel like a RPG to me.

Furthermore, the trend to call an "action" game that includes power-ups and skill trees a RPG does make me believe that people who lament the end of the C-RPG genre are not too far off.

No, the old games did not have the same speed or graphics of the new ones.
To make up for that the story and gameplay had to be top notch.
Often, the technology has taken the place of the story nowadays.
It is like the people who thought Avatar was the greatest movie ever, basically because of the visuals.
Those people must not have ever seen "Ferngully: The Last Rainforest" or even "Pocahantas".
* I still do not understand why Cameron has not been sued by someone.  Oh well.

DA:O was one of the few pleasant exceptions to the trend.
Good story with some tough choices, good gameplay (a few annoyances but nothing like the DA2 demo) and decent graphics.

DA2's demo seems to pander to the fast-twitch FPS crowd - "Look, the gameplay is fast and a lot like xyz, but you keep your upgrades!"

That is fine, Bioware can do whatever they want to sell product, but it is not a RPG just because I must make a few dialog choices.

An action game is an action game, a RPG is a RPG.

Modifié par Kajukenbo, 07 mars 2011 - 02:53 .

[ransompendragon]

Sydney wrote...
Dialog wheel. The fact that DAO typed out your 3 responses made them a lot deeper.

At least I knew what my response was even if I had to *gasp* use my imagination for tone and inflection. With the new system what Hawke says is sometimes very different than the dialogue "keyword."

As far as all the combat stuff, even if it *isn't* more comic book than DAO it certainly *looks* that way.

I am still counting on the story - what I saw of that in the demo looks promising.

Modifié par ransompendragon, 07 mars 2011 - 03:48 .

[Graunt]

I just found this, and I can't stop laughing.

www.youtube.com/watch

[Graunt]

Kajukenbo wrote...
An action game is an action game, a RPG is a RPG.

Tell that to the LARPERS. 

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role-playing_game

Several varieties of RPG also exist in electronic media, including multi-player text-based MUDs and their graphics-based successors, massively multiplayer online role-playing games (MMORPGs). Role-playing games also include single-player offline role-playing video games
in which players control a character or team who undertake quests, and
whose capabilities advance using statistical mechanics. These games
often share settings and rules with pen-and-paper RPGs, but emphasize
character advancement more than collaborative storytelling.

Modifié par Graunt, 07 mars 2011 - 04:07 .

[The Greye Hawke]

theriddlen wrote...

Graphics still worse than ME1... (Why?)
Runs not fluently. (And this is a computer that nicely handles Crysis 1 [2 has lower requirements] on DX11 graphics).
Also, BioWare have done something that i though of as a impossible thing - made general gameplay and controls worse than in crappy DA:O.

You know, every talented man in BioWare seems to be working on ME3... maybe someone in there should ask one of them to help out those fourth-graders that make DA.
Ahh, and describe to them what does the word "Dark" mean, because they think it's "Brown, dull and generic".

Idk for me the game was running smoothly on my pc.  At least compared to the demo I have on my xbox.

[The Greye Hawke]

Hmmm at least I can enjoy multiple genres of gaming. So no worries on the potential of a whole sub genre dying, which I don't see how that would happen.

DA2 will probably be there in my Favorite Rpgs of all time.

[The Greye Hawke]

Sidney wrote...

sreaction wrote...

Hyperactive combat

Lack of the need to use your party members

Slimmed down PC options

Slimmed down skills tree

Cartoon like graphics

Comic book like combat moves, leaping 20 yards,

Infinite endurance in spite of moving around like a whirlwind (rogue)

Disappearing and reappearing for backstabs (rogue)

Regenerating health in combat (though I’m not sure that is going to cross over
to the actual game).

The dummy dialog wheel (and it looks like the dialog options are less complex).

Lack of connection to the player character, forcefeed pc with limited options and choices (this also goes for Gerart of Rivia in The Witcher).

Lack of the ability to multi-class. In DAO I consider a dual wield warrior or a
rogue in heavy armor an abstract of multi-classing.

Etc.

I get you don't like it but I think you, and so many like you, are plain flat out making stuff up or looking for things to be bothered by. No game is perfect - I'd love to see DAO's craptastic inventory systrem and vendor trash-o-rama looting go away in DA2 but I'm not having kitten about it still being there despite being the worst part of the first game.

Combat moves faster, that <> actiony. How much slower would it have to move to not be a "console" game? 10%, 20%, is DAO as fast as "tactical" combat can move for you? Pause, issue orders, attacks, pause, the combat plays out exactly the same as DAO and frankly going all the way back to BG which was a LOT harder to follow thanks to the tiny men battling on screen.

You sure did need to use your party members - did you play past the opeing memory because I was using everyone.  I see a lot of gripes and I suspect a lot of poeple played the "legend" and not the reality.

The skills trees are slimmed down? Sure doesn't look like it. They appear to be more compleix in terms of requirements and options than the linear DAO ones.  I know not going A->B-->C is confusing and scary but it'll all be ok. I'm not counting but if they lost anything it was a matter of degrees not magnitude. DA2 has a LOT more skills than FO or BG for example. You certainly can't argue that.

Graphics are personal taste but the only "cartoony" things are the washed out Darkspawn that look so jagged I thought they were from an alpha build. I think the Bioware team made a mistake with that re-design (and I assume those are part of the Throne of Blood look to things) but I can cope with ugly - I thought the massive armor from DAO was improbable and silly looking much like Star Fang and all the mauls.

Comic book moves? I listed all the "defies the laws of physics" moves from DAO in another post and there is a lot of the same stuff only more "spinning" than "jumping". Is spinning less comic booky than jumping. I never know.

Disappearing. Again, stealth did the same thing only w/o the stabby - stabby bit. No one balked at that in DAO.

Regeneration. You did regenmerate during combat in DAO - just a lot more slowly than in exploration. Much like comabt, is there an acceptable level of in combat regeneration?

Dialog wheel. The fact that DAO typed out your 3 responses made them a lot deeper.

Lack of connection. I'd like to introduce you to The Nameless One, the Vault Dweller and the Bhaalspawn just to name a few - oh and the Grey Warden. These people aren't tabula rasa in any game they have a point and story and that is what you show up to play. Picking hair color and race are meaningless aestheitc choices you might as well rail on the lack of purple hair and eye liner for men.

Multi-classing. You admit DAO didn't have it but you "thought" there were things like it so just pretend that something in DA2 is multi-classing as well.

I just keep seeing a lot of the same "it isn't like it was" stuff and most of that appears to be bunk. I see folks talking death of old school RPG's but the old school RPG's aren't what people throught they were either or else people only played BG2 among all the old RPG's.

I agree with most of your statements except for one.

The darkspawn always looked dumb lol.  I didn't like how they looked in the first one except maybe the ogres.  They just kind of looked like wannabe orcs with sharper teeth and less disformed bodies.  Now they just like very evil jesters and harlequins