63 réponses à ce sujet

[Mengtzu]

I know it's hardly a shock to hear a DA:O modder whining for a DA2 toolset update, but playing the DA2 demo has convinced me that it's a superior platform for modding.  I firmly believe that amateur developers can deliver higher quality content to DA2 because of two key advantages possessed by the sequel:

1.  Superior game balance.  While it's early days, improved talent trees and distinct roles for rogues and warriors strongly indicates a much better balanced game.  This is crucial for amateur encounter designers because it reduces the delta in player performance, making it easier for us to create appropriate challenges for a wide range of players.  As we lack professional testing resources and can only rely on a small, dedicated audience for playtesting, a balanced and robust range of candidate parties is a huge advantage in delivering an appropriate encounter with limited feedback.

2.  The Conversation Wheel is superior interface design.   Icon + postion + text conveys far more information to the player than 60 characters of text, and with less subjectivity.  It's faster to use and less prone to mismatch between player understanding and writer intent.  To an amateur writer operating without professional editorial oversight (and as above limited testing resources), this would be an enormous boon.  I spend a lot of time puzzling over how to communicate my meaning in 60 characters, and I'm sure not every player gets precisely what I want to say.  With an icon and position I could be certain that the player and I are agreeing on the general thrust of the branch they're following.  The dialogue is easier to write, the player experience smoother and more reliable, despite the amateur nature of my efforts.


I believe these two advantages are so powerful that they would allow us to deliver clearly superior experiences.  We could add more value to the DA2 platform than we have DA:O, and faster off the back of our existing skills.  Obviously nobody reading this really wants us to deny us a toolset update, but I think there's a rational and powerful argument that getting one into our hands will do significant good for the health and lifespan of the platform.

After playing the demo, I feel absolutely compelled to develop encounters for this game.  I'm sure my fellow modders will feel just as inspired.  That enthusiasm from devoted and skilled (if amateur!) developers needs to be captured and turned into shipped, playable modules.  Or we'll all end up in Edmenton scratching at your doors like lost puppies, which would just be awkward for everyone!

Modifié par Mengtzu, 23 février 2011 - 12:32 .

[Loc'n'lol]

Well, I don't know if it's the demo only or if the full game is the same but the erf (container) files cannot be read by the dao toolset. Bummer.

[jackkel dragon]

The DA2 demo has actually postponed all of my Dragon Age modding after I finish my current endeavour. If there is a DA2 toolset update, *that's* what I want to be working with, so I agree with the OP.

Edit: Should a BioWare dev read this post, I'm curious about something. Making the assumption that a toolset update is released, would the ability to create standalone content for DA2 (not an addin to the OC) be something offered by the update?

Modifié par jackkel dragon, 23 février 2011 - 01:06 .

[tmp7704]

_Loc_N_lol_ wrote...

Well, I don't know if it's the demo only or if the full game is the same but the erf (container) files cannot be read by the dao toolset. Bummer.

Yup. Going by the file headers the content of DA2 is stored in v.3.0 .erf files which don't seem to be supported by the DA Toolset (DAO used v.2.0 of .erf files)  The new format doesn't seem to show even the names of contained files which makes any attempt at override even harder.

[Loc'n'lol]

tmp7704 wrote...

_Loc_N_lol_ wrote...

Well, I don't know if it's the demo only or if the full game is the same but the erf (container) files cannot be read by the dao toolset. Bummer.

Yup. Going by the file headers the content of DA2 is stored in v.3.0 .erf files which don't seem to be supported by the DA Toolset (DAO used v.2.0 of .erf files)  The new format doesn't seem to show even the names of contained files which makes any attempt at override even harder.

Well, if they're not updating the toolset anytime soon or ever, I hope they at least provide info on this erf 3.0 file format...

[Kaihel]

While the Demo itself was an okay experience, what really made me drop my jaw were the animations, I do hope they bring forth an update or fixes that will allow the toolset to read the files, and hopefully intergrate them with the Dragon age 1 content.

[ladydesire]

I've poke one of my sources to see if he'll squeal...

[daywalker03]

_Loc_N_lol_ wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

_Loc_N_lol_ wrote...

Well, I don't know if it's the demo only or if the full game is the same but the erf (container) files cannot be read by the dao toolset. Bummer.

Yup. Going by the file headers the content of DA2 is stored in v.3.0 .erf files which don't seem to be supported by the DA Toolset (DAO used v.2.0 of .erf files)  The new format doesn't seem to show even the names of contained files which makes any attempt at override even harder.

Well, if they're not updating the toolset anytime soon or ever, I hope they at least provide info on this erf 3.0 file format...

We do have the source for the player created tool, right? It could be as simple as adding a command line flag for the version 3 erf files, assuming that's all Bioware changed.

[PavelNovotny]

Considering that they stopped fixing bugs with the current toolkit (even major ones like the problems with 2da ranges) a while ago I would be surprised if they released a new one.

[ChewyGumball]

tmp7704 wrote...

_Loc_N_lol_ wrote...

Well, I don't know if it's the demo only or if the full game is the same but the erf (container) files cannot be read by the dao toolset. Bummer.

Yup. Going by the file headers the content of DA2 is stored in v.3.0 .erf files which don't seem to be supported by the DA Toolset (DAO used v.2.0 of .erf files)  The new format doesn't seem to show even the names of contained files which makes any attempt at override even harder.

The erf I got from a friend (v3 2da.erf) had visible file names. Didnt look too closely at the rest of the stuff though.

[DarthParametric]

The ones in \\packages\\core\\data\\ where you can see filenames of at least some of the contents are:



2da.erf

fonts.erf

guiexport.erf

layouts.erf

materialdefinitions.erf

misc.erf

resmetrics.erf

scripts.erf

subqueuefiles.erf

al_char_stage.rim

designerresources.rim

global.rim



It seems like these primarily contain text files of one sort or another (XML for example). There are patterns in the other files, but no discernible filenames.

[Proleric]

I can see why many builders would like to have the conversation wheel facility.

For what it's worth, I much prefer the DAO conversation style, as it suits my kind of storytelling RPG, where the words matter - but perhaps that's a thing of the past?

[FollowTheGourd]

I prefer the old way too - I don't really see any reason to jump to DA2 (especially with zero official support). I took a look at the v3.0 ERFs and don't see anything immediately obvious to get the missing filenames. Maybe they're hashed or compressed in some way - at least not the traditional way GDAs and such were hashed, as far as I know. I didn't really see any addresses pointing to file start locations either, at least addresses stored in sections that weren't probably just for file data - but it was just a quick look.

If it helps anybody else figure it out later... if you look in guiexport.erf and search on "CFX", those mark the beginning of the UI GFX files. At least it's actual data I found in those files - I didn't see where the XML files or any DDS files were. The first two .gfx files (found by text searches on "CFX") should *probably* have the file name savescreen.gfx and mainmenu.gfx, respectively (based on no other information than the contents and the file-naming convention from Origins). I don't know what was between each .gfx file exactly, but they seemed have some common string with a slightly increasing byte. The .gfx files after their gfx headers are zlib streams IIRC, so that's probably something else.

Modifié par FollowTheGourd, 24 février 2011 - 07:48 .

[tmp7704]

ChewyGumball wrote...

The erf I got from a friend (v3 2da.erf) had visible file names. Didnt look too closely at the rest of the stuff though.

I only had a brief look at the models.erf and that one didn't seem to have them, so kinda presumed the rest was like that, too.

[rayvioletta]

I'm not a modder, I admit I dabbled with the toolset, screwed everything up and snuck away to download other peoples mods instead

but being a mod user I certainly support a toolset for DA2! as fun as Origins was and still is, the talented modding community has added so much more to an already great game. DA2 looks like being great and deserves the support of our modding community

[Nattfodd]

I think that if we could have a complete documentation of DAO game mechanics rules, there is no reason to have a toolset for a game like DA2 that, from the demo, seems to have the same game mechanics of DAO.

DAO Modding has gone not too far away, there are many many many things to reach the exellence.

[Eshme]

I have pushed forth an update to the ERF documention on the wiki. To me it seems unlikely to read ERFs at all, as they seem highly compressed in an unknown format.

[ChewyGumball]

I would say they are encrypted, not compressed, though it is possible it is both.

[Eshme]

HA bingo, it is highly likely a ZIP compression. Ill check quick

no its not

Modifié par Eshme, 24 février 2011 - 06:34 .

[jackkel dragon]

Proleric1 wrote...

I can see why many builders would like to have the conversation wheel facility.

For what it's worth, I much prefer the DAO conversation style, as it suits my kind of storytelling RPG, where the words matter - but perhaps that's a thing of the past?

I prefer almost everything about DA2, but that's really only my opnion. The line I bolded above seems to be prevalent among some groups of gamers, but this is where I feel a bit contradictory. I prefer DA2's conversations system for what it does and how it works, but I see no reason to ditch DAO's system entirely. This isn't the topic for me to discuss this, but in short I think with "cinematic" voiced games BioWare made a good decision with the wheel, while I still think games with a list can be done well if the rest of the game supports such a system (BG2 and PS:T come to mind.)

[ladydesire]

ChewyGumball wrote...

I would say they are encrypted, not compressed, though it is possible it is both.

Possibly encrypted, but it could also be a new or updated GFF format as well.

[Mengtzu]

FollowTheGourd wrote...

I prefer the old way too - I don't really see any reason to jump to DA2 (especially with zero official support).

Sure!  I didn't start this thread to convince anyone that DA2 is better for them personally.  It's natural that modders will display a range of preferences for the things the two games do differently.

However, regardless of who likes them and who doesn't, the new combat environment and the dialogue wheel are powerful tools, and as I outlined above, particularly helpful to modders working with limited resources.


Is it easier to develop encounters for a better balanced game?  Yes it is.

Does the dialogue wheel solve a real UX problem? Yes it does.

Does that mean we could deliver more value to the DA2 platform given a toolset update?  I am sure of it.


We can be sure that this community is going to add a lot of value to the DA:O platform going forward.  A lot of talented teams and individuals are working on huge projects that will be awesome once they've come to fruition (and in a couple of cases we've already had a first taste).  We can also expect that people who legitimately prefer the DA:O style would stick with it and develop content even if a DA2 toolset update is available.

But how much value did we add while DA:O was the current game with the lion's share of audience attention?  Not as much as we'd like - the window was just too short.  We've done more building of expertise than we have shipping gameplay.  I've shipped 15 pretty good hours myself, but I know I can do better.

With a toolset update for DA2, those of us who made the jump wouldn't have a cold start.  We'd take all of our existing expertise into a stronger platform and start turning out great gameplay fast.  Sure my first module might be "Fight Club Kirkwall: Leave No Face Unbroken", but it would ship, and ship soon in the wake of the update.

I'm harping on terms like "value" and "ship" because I'm not interested in convincing my fellow modders that they should like DA2's features or that they should change their plans.  I'm not interested in an emotional plea to Bioware - they have no obligations to us whatsoever.  I'm just advancing an argument that an investment of resources in providing the update will produce more value in the form of gameplay for the platform faster.

[LadyKarrakaz]

I strongly support a toolset update, at least for fixing the bugs and get some unofficial patches. Because DAO official patches didn't erase all problem. And truly, the new content made me stick to the game. I'm not sure the game would have the same replay value without all the mods around.

BTW, if you want a toolset, vote in this poll and check this group

Modifié par Purple Lady, 24 février 2011 - 11:21 .

[ChewyGumball]

ladydesire wrote...

ChewyGumball wrote...

I would say they are encrypted, not compressed, though it is possible it is both.

Possibly encrypted, but it could also be a new or updated GFF format as well.

That is also a good possibility, however I think some ERFs showing visible names, and others not points to encryption, as they are not part of the encapsulated files, but the table of contents of the ERF itself. Either way, they can't and wont be read by the current toolset no matter what happens. 

[-Semper-]

the biggest and interesting question would be: in the case of an update (where hopefully lots of toolset bugs will be solved) will modders still be able to create content for da:o? i really doubt that. it seems that there is technically too much changed and therefore new modules can only be read by da2.

in the end modders can decide between staying away from an update but with da:o and a messy toolset or to evolve into da2 with all it's pros and cons. dunno but imo both states are far away from being satisfying^^

Modifié par -Semper-, 24 février 2011 - 11:39 .