63 réponses à ce sujet

[FollowTheGourd]

ChewyGumball wrote...

ladydesire wrote...

ChewyGumball wrote...

I would say they are encrypted, not compressed, though it is possible it is both.

Possibly encrypted, but it could also be a new or updated GFF format as well.

That is also a good possibility, however I think some ERFs showing visible names, and others not points to encryption, as they are not part of the encapsulated files, but the table of contents of the ERF itself. Either way, they can't and wont be read by the current toolset no matter what happens. 

Encryption was my first thought as well, but as I mentioned below my whining post above, there *is* some valid file data to be found in ERFs where no file name is readily available. Maybe it's something special that GFX files have to be that way, but it'd be sort of weird if some of the ERF was encrypted but other parts of the same file weren't. But it's weird either way.

[Loc'n'lol]

-Semper- wrote...

the biggest and interesting question would be: in the case of an update (where hopefully lots of toolset bugs will be solved) will modders still be able to create content for da:o? i really doubt that. it seems that there is technically too much changed and therefore new modules can only be read by da2.

in the end modders can decide between staying away from an update but with da:o and a messy toolset or to evolve into da2 with all it's pros and cons. dunno but imo both states are far away from being satisfying^^

I don't know, maybe you could have like 2 copies of the toolset installed ? Since the toolset installs itself in the DAO folder (because it needs DAO ressources to run anyway), maybe they'd have to repackage the whole toolset+updates into one download that installs itself into the DA2 folder ?

It would be pretty strange to require ownership of DAO to be able to run the toolset for DA2.

Modifié par _Loc_N_lol_, 25 février 2011 - 01:49 .

[Kaihel]

the biggest and interesting question would be: in the case of an update (where hopefully lots of toolset bugs will be solved) will modders still be able to create content for da:o? i really doubt that. it seems that there is technically too much changed and therefore new modules can only be read by da2.

in the end modders can decide between staying away from an update but with da:o and a messy toolset or to evolve into da2 with all it's pros and cons. dunno but imo both states are far away from being satisfying^^

Mike stated that DA2 pretty much uses the same stuff from DA:O, the difference being that it's updated, which for me at least, means that DA2 can be intergrated with the DA:O content with a proper update on the toolset.

David Gaider quotes:

I believe Mike already answered this, but let me repeat: we're considering it, but if there is something for you guys to use it will probably come in the form of an update to the DAO toolset (which would make sense, as we're essentially using the same toolset ourselves).

Right now we don't know for certain that we'll have a chance to do this, hence we aren't mentioning it (lest we be perceived as making iron-clad promises and then be accused of utter betrayal should we change our minds). We'll eventually decide if and when this will happen-- though I will say that the only reason you received the DAO toolset in timely fashion was because of the release delay. Had there been no delay you probably would have received the toolset around the time the game actually did come out-- we don't tend to work on packaging up a toolset for public consumption until after our work on the game itself is primarily done.

So the answer is: we don't know, on any count. But Mike didn't say "no", so that will have to do for the moment

Modifié par Kaihel, 25 février 2011 - 01:55 .

[FollowTheGourd]

I think Semper just meant if there is an updated, improved and bug-fixed toolset for DA2, then you probably won't be able to make Origins compatible mods with it, for those sticking with it - unless they went the extra mile, which seems doubtful since getting the key in the ignition seems unlikely enough as it is. Maybe the DA:O stuff could be imported into any DA2 toolset - but you'd possibly hit licensing snags there (or get your mods deleted), even though it's the same company and publisher.

Modifié par FollowTheGourd, 25 février 2011 - 02:02 .

[Proleric]

If there is a toolset upgrade, I'd expect that continuing DAO support would be a major design goal.

After all, even if builders decide to make content for DA2, we will still need DAO to complete work-in-progress and support it.

I don't immediately see a technical barrier to making a common toolset, since both games are based on the same architecture.

Given the limited resources available, I'd suggest Bioware's priorities might be fixing the path bugs and adding the DA2 essentials.

The potential areas of divergence are content and GUI.

Bioware might very reasonably require that builders and players can only used content they've purchased (as with NWN). Ideally, there would be one toolset with one content database, but if that hasn't been designed in from day one, there might have to be two databases.

I can see that the builder will probably have to choose to mod for one GUI or the other. For example, I don't immediately see how DAO conversations could work in DA2.

Caveat - if adding DA2 features carries a significant risk of breaking DAO, and Bioware doesn't have enough resources to commit to fix-on-fail post-launch, maybe it would be better to leave DAO alone.

[Ohpus]

It's been proven with the Awakening fix for importing DLC content that modders can indeed be a huge benefit. They can extend the product's shelf-life and appeal far beyond the aount of time Bioware's developers have to devote to content.



Rather than a crushing schedule to put out buggy or unbalanced content (*cough* Golems) to feed the hungry masses they can let the masses feed on themselves. Nothing says "happy" for the bottom line like other people making content for your game for free.

[Eshme]

FollowTheGourd wrote...

ChewyGumball wrote...

ladydesire wrote...

ChewyGumball wrote...

I would say they are encrypted, not compressed, though it is possible it is both.

Possibly encrypted, but it could also be a new or updated GFF format as well.

That is also a good possibility, however I think some ERFs showing visible names, and others not points to encryption, as they are not part of the encapsulated files, but the table of contents of the ERF itself. Either way, they can't and wont be read by the current toolset no matter what happens. 

Encryption was my first thought as well, but as I mentioned below my whining post above, there *is* some valid file data to be found in ERFs where no file name is readily available. Maybe it's something special that GFX files have to be that way, but it'd be sort of weird if some of the ERF was encrypted but other parts of the same file weren't. But it's weird either way.

Yea its weird, the scripts.erf is entirely readable, alas without filenames lol strange. Certainly EA must help, but they are comfortable unsupporting for a year so far i dont expect them anymore.
I was going by the believe that there is a compression at work, because of a pattern i gathered in conjunction with filesizes inside of the v3 erf. And that the typical compression factor of standard compression software is about on par, so i thought. IE the guiexport.erf is like 25MB compressed and 95MB uncompressed. That is immense ,for a realtime game.
But if you say its encryption, it may as well be both.

[ChewyGumball]

It could be both, the header could be encrypted, while the files not, and the whole thing could be compressed.

[jackkel dragon]

Proleric1 wrote...
I don't immediately see a technical barrier to making a common toolset, since both games are based on the same architecture.

It may just be an artifact (is that the right word?), but there are two options for creating new GFF files in the toolset (Eclipse and NWN). Since the file structure likely has changed for DA2, I would think that there would be some sort of option to create either DAO resources or DA2 resources. Or, more likely, the module is defined as DAO or DA2 and thus uses one resource type or the other.

[ladydesire]

Ohpus wrote...

It's been proven with the Awakening fix for importing DLC content that modders can indeed be a huge benefit. They can extend the product's shelf-life and appeal far beyond the aount of time Bioware's developers have to devote to content.

Rather than a crushing schedule to put out buggy or unbalanced content (*cough* Golems) to feed the hungry masses they can let the masses feed on themselves. Nothing says "happy" for the bottom line like other people making content for your game for free.

While I agree to an extent that Golems was unbalanced, it's what people were wanting; content that supposedly was challenging. On your other point, we modders are limited to providing content for PC and Mac users; console users can't get our mods, due to console maker restrictions.

On the subject of the toolset and/or file format data, be patient; I'll keep in touch with my sources and let you know when things break, if you don't find out first.

[Proleric]

jackkel dragon wrote...

Proleric1 wrote...
I don't immediately see a technical barrier to making a common toolset, since both games are based on the same architecture.

It may just be an artifact (is that the right word?), but there are two options for creating new GFF files in the toolset (Eclipse and NWN). Since the file structure likely has changed for DA2, I would think that there would be some sort of option to create either DAO resources or DA2 resources. Or, more likely, the module is defined as DAO or DA2 and thus uses one resource type or the other.

That's entirely possible.

Equally, if the format changes are minor, there could be a data migration approach (similar to DAO 1.01) to a common internal data base.

Even the export formats could be common, in theory. So far, we've only heard that there's a new ERF format, which is no big deal in itself.

We'll have to wait and see, of course. There's no commitment to do anything yet, but I guess there's no harm in nudging Bioware towards our preferred outcome.

[0x30A88]

I hope they make the dialogue editor fit with the wheel -- perhaps the draw lines between things kind of editor like in newer programs (3DS Max 2011 new type material thing and so on).

Having seperate quests and plot variable storages. It would be quite easy to have the standard variables (accepted, available and completed) as well as variables for choises which could change the -- or give no -- rewards

There are so many things that can shorten the learning curve, the work time -- for both you (Bioware) and us modders.

[Melsy]

Does Bioware ever read or reply on these forums? Newbie here...

[Mengtzu]

Melsy wrote...

Does Bioware ever read or reply on these forums? Newbie here...

Yes, though naturally the builders' forum is much lower traffic and necessarily gets less attention than, say, DA2 General

[daywalker03]

They do; I've seen a few posting in these forums in the last few days.

[errant_knight]

I have zero interest in DA:O's combat or conversation system, so I imagine anything outside gameplay tweaks would stay DA:O anyway. I really want to do some of those tweaks, though. Badly.

If it's a choice between the two, then I'll stay with DA:O, without a doubt.

[Eshme]

Melsy wrote...

Does Bioware ever read or reply on these forums? Newbie here...

They may have some more time now that DA2 is finished, to check the modding forums some more on their personal time. Certainly not questions as in this thread im afraid. Well i do hope they continue on the modding forums, between the few posts in the last days, there were zero for the past year.

[DarthParametric]

There's no money in having devs sitting around with free time. They will likely already working on expansion/DLC content and ramping up for DA3. So don't hold your breath.

[daywalker03]

DarthParametric wrote...

There's no money in having devs sitting around with free time. They will likely already working on expansion/DLC content and ramping up for DA3. So don't hold your breath.

I don't think Thought Process (whoever he or she is) would agree with you, as that person has been busy updating the ERF v3 section of the Builder Wiki ERF page; enough so that Mephales has updated pyGFF twice in the past day. Not only that, but I've been looking at the gda files from the DA2 demo and starting to plan several simple DA2 mods for release on the 8th. I suspect we will start seeing more dev activity in these forums now that they aren't in a rush to get DA2 done.

[DarthParametric]

A random guy updating the wiki has what to do with Bioware devs exactly?

[Kaihel]

There's no money in having devs sitting around with free time. They will likely already working on expansion/DLC content and ramping up for DA3. So don't hold your breath.

There is even less money in losing customers who bought and now play this game because of the toolset.

[DarthParametric]

Those people are but the merest drop in the ocean. DA2 is focused primarily on consoles and there is no toolset for consoles. I doubt mods factored into any of their equations.

[rayvioletta]

if it was focussed primarily on consoles they wouldn't have specifically tailored the PC and console versions to take advantage of their respective platforms and we'd end up with the PC version being a poor console port (like some games I could mention), the fact that they're not taking that shortcut shows what most of BioWares previous games have also shown; they try to cater for all of their customers. we may not all like all of the decisions they make but assuming that they consider one subsection of the gamers money to be more valuable than another is just silly

[DarthParametric]

rayvioletta wrote...

if it was focussed primarily on consoles they wouldn't have specifically tailored the PC and console versions to take advantage of their respective platforms and we'd end up with the PC version being a poor console port

Indeed. Look at the demo, the videos, the interviews and guess what - that's pretty much exactly what we are getting.

[ladydesire]

If that were true, Darth, why did Bioware bother with DirectX 11 support, or support for ATI Eye-finity multi-monitor setups? What we've mostly seen is how much improved over Origins DA2 is graphically, even if the Medium res graphics on PC don't look all that impressive compared to the high- or very high- res graphics in other games it's being compared to.

On topic: whether Thought Process is a dev in disguise or not, Bioware isn't doing anything different that what they've told us all along; they told us up front when DA2 was announced that the toolset would not be worked on until the game was released, which I believe is scheduled to be next week.