206 réponses à ce sujet

[HolyJellyfish]

You could play it off on the idea that Hawke is trying to force a strong face in front of her grieving mother. Their position is a dire one, and it seems at that point all the characters have all but accepted they will die. When the game is released, hopefully we will see Hawke grieve post mortem.

Modifié par HolyJellyfish, 23 février 2011 - 08:27 .

[Roseking]

I like to role play my game (after a few playthroughs I will start to metagame though) so my Hawk took it hard when is brother died. Might just be me.


In before "lol Dragon 2 isn't a role-playing game"

[Liaskar Amell]

To be fair, they were being surrounded by an army of darkspawn. So while complaining about a lack of emotion is all well and good, at least there's a very valid reason for Hawke not weeping at that moment. And I thought Mama Hawke's reaction was just fine. She even blames you for it partially. I also have a feeling that this will come up later if you take your living sibling with you on quests. "Remember when you got your brother/sister killed? Don't make me lose another child!" or something to that effect.



Also, Wesley's scene was more emotional because he was being killed by his own wife (I haven't seen it when Hawke kills him) and not randomly killed in battle.



I'm certain we will see more emotional responses from Hawke and the rest of the family about the death later on in the game.

[Revan312]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

You could play it off on the idea that Hawke is trying to force a strong face in front of her grieving mother. Their position is a dire one, and it seems at that point all the characters have all but accepted they will die. When the game is released, hopefully we will see Hawke grieve post mortem.

I might,  might accept that if it happens, but nontheless, the scene failed as just that, a scene.

When you have to start making internal justifications for why the scene in question didn't have the assumed and expected emotional weight it deserves, it failed imo..

Liaskar Amell wrote...
I'm certain we will see more emotional
responses from Hawke and the rest of the family about the death later on
in the game.

Your certain huh? I was certain the family would have a blow up/hard grieving moment so I'm taking the rest of the dialogue/story with a grain of salt.. Hopefully your right.

Modifié par Revan312, 23 février 2011 - 08:35 .

[Liaskar Amell]

Revan312 wrote...

Liaskar Amell wrote...
I'm certain we will see more emotional
responses from Hawke and the rest of the family about the death later on
in the game.

Your certain huh? I was certain the family would have a blow up/hard grieving moment so I'm taking the rest of the dialogue/story with a grain of salt.. Hopefully your right.

Just because a scene doesn't play out how you feel it should does not mean it failed or that the rest of the game's dialogue or story is in jeopardy.

Like I said before, I think the way the family responded was justified given their circumstances. If you disagree, that's fine. But we don't all think it was a failure.

[SlayTheDragons]

wesley and bethany/carver deaths were meant for you to note that aveline and hawke have suffered losses. whether or not you feel for those dead characters is secondary to the fact that those deaths have had or could have a significant impact on aveline and hawke - characters you should be concerned with.

it's a little premature for you to claim that it's bad writing since you don't know what impact the deaths of those characters will have on the characters(aveline and hawk) and the story <_<

Modifié par SlayTheDragons, 23 février 2011 - 08:44 .

[Vahe]

Revan312 wrote...

The reaction/emotional impact during the sibling death scene was beyond lackluster, it bordered on devoid. Wesley's death had more impact and he's the husband of a secondary character..

I mean, not only where the actual expressions and emotive reactions nonexistent, but the lines themselves that both can be chosen for Hawke and those given by Beth/Carver are so dismissive as to be a joke. Mother Hawke, although a wee bit broken up, still seemed to only have the same general reaction you would expect of someone who lost their pet.

I kind of expected something more than a generic "Welp, too bad huh, but we should really get going" said in three different ways... In fact I expected much more..

MankoMeista wrote...
But out of context,  the blank look on
Hawke's face when seeing his/her sibling's corpse.., I'm not sure what
that's about. Maybe Hawke was in shock or just suddenly felt numb? I
guess people react to different situations differently.

I bet if you could find the most grizzled, battle hardened veteran soldier and threw his beloved sibling in front of a bus, he would emote more than Hawke did..

I agree with this post. 

[Raven_26]

Ex-Paladin wrote...
I was more bothered by her blaming my character for dead sibling <_< excuse me for not rushing in front of a charging ogre twice my size, dear mother

LoL so this, when she said that to my pc I was speech less "I'm sorry, did you not see all the other darkspawn?)
Also it made me think back to ME2, where Jokers askes if he should have broke his arms on the collectors XD

[Alixen]

Hmm, personally I felt there was enough emotion there, at least for the time being. Hawke is (as all Bioware PCs are) given the lead immediatly... so unfortunatly s/he has to internalize the pain til later. It'll either come up or it will be assumed you 'deal' with it on the boat to Kirkwall. You never really 'broke down' about anything in Origins. In Mass Effect the only time you really 'break' is when you are grounded, and thats over quickly enough.

It'll give RPers something to work with when planning their Hawke's mindset; and it's going to be big with the mother, and surviving sibling. I get the feeling that the mother is going to hold onto some bitterness (unles she apologises later) and Hawke is going to be dealing with his his/her parent 'hating' him for a while. The suvivor could also end up sacrificing themself for Hawke early int he story too( just a little later - in Kirkwall) at which point imagine the mothers reaction? All speculation, but it's fun.

I too actually felt a pang of "Ouch" as the mother blamed my Hawke. That affected me more than the death itself. Looking forwards to seeing were it goes.

Modifié par Alixen, 23 février 2011 - 09:11 .

[Wynne]

Yeah, your mom blaming you was like, "Ow, hey, WTF Mom? Would you have liked MORE corpse children? No one to stand between it and you?" Geez, my parents only have one kid; one death and that's it. Be grateful you still have kids to lose, Mom. But I guess that's realistic. She's a terrified non-combatant, and people get grumpy when the terror switch has been flipped on for too long.

The deaths... I don't know. Will there be more of a cutscene before you start playing? To create more of a connection? This is just a demo, after all. It's already two gigs. Either way, I think there'll be a replay bonus--you play the game after playing with one sibling, then you know them pretty thoroughly, and know what could've been. Maybe that's what this sort of structure intends, actually.

Modifié par Wynne, 23 février 2011 - 09:14 .

[robotnist]

what i took from this is that Thedas is a dangerous world. anything can happen. and i was impacted by this because i lost a family member when i thought i was just running my "tutorial" where nothing can go wrong right? lol

[Amioran]

Vahe wrote...

I don't think I am alone in saying that I felt no emotional impact whatsoever when Bethany/Carver died.  None.  I felt the same when Wesley died.  It's a rookie mistake that a lot of writers make, but I didn't expect Gaider and his lackeys to fall victim to it. 

Really? It's a mistake that Tolstoj, Dickens, Dostojevskij, Miller, Lautreamont, Artaud, Ellroy, Ellis, Shakespeare, Burroughs etc. did. But yes, they are all rookies, you know. You instead are the writer of the millenium, LOL.

Listen guy, you don't know ANYTHING whatsoever of what you are babbling about. You have really no idea, just shut up, it's better.

OMG, OMG.

Modifié par Amioran, 23 février 2011 - 09:35 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

What I wonder is why didn't Wesley fight? He had a sword. He could still run around.



If I buy the game, I'm definately gonna mod that. Replace his "run away script with "follow Hawke and fight!".

[Amioran]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

What I wonder is why didn't Wesley fight? He had a sword. He could still run around.

Oh, it's so easy to fight when you have an arm severed, really... (end sarcasm)
 
The pain is unbearable, it is just too much that a person can walk, let alone fight. Adrenaline will only work for 10 minutes at the most, after you just have to fight to not fall unconscious.

Modifié par Amioran, 23 février 2011 - 09:37 .

[Vahe]

Amioran wrote...

Vahe wrote...

I don't think I am alone in saying that I felt no emotional impact whatsoever when Bethany/Carver died.  None.  I felt the same when Wesley died.  It's a rookie mistake that a lot of writers make, but I didn't expect Gaider and his lackeys to fall victim to it. 

Really? It's a mistake that Tolstoj, Dickens, Dostojevskij, Miller, Lautreamont, Artaud, Ellroy, Ellis, Shakespeare, Burroughs etc. did. But yes, they are all rookies, you know.

Listen guy, you don't know ANYTHING whatsoever of what you are babbling about. You have really no idea, just shut up, it's better.

OMG, OMG.

Oh nice, you listed a bunch of authors and you think that means something. 

The only time I have seen a character killed off at the very start and be emotionally connected to that character is Six Feet Under, because the character kept coming back through memories, flashbacks, and dreams.  But I doubt that will happen, because there wasn't anything interesting about Bethany or Carver to begin with.  

[Amioran]

Vahe wrote...

Oh nice, you listed a bunch of authors and you think that means something. 

 
Certainly, it means EVERYTHING. You said it is a "rookie mistake" of writers, yet some of the most talented writers (I forgot Wilde in the list) did just that.

Sorry, but you failed.

Vahe wrote...
The only time I have seen a character killed off at the very start and be emotionally connected to that character is Six Feet Under. 

What can I say, study a little more.

[Darth Wolfenbarg]

Are you kidding? It's practically a Bioware staple by now.

-Gorion
-Trask
-Jenkins
-Wilson
-Numerous origin exclusive characters
-Duncan

And probably others since I excluded NWN, Jade Empire, MDK2 and Shattered Steel. If you're in a Bioware game, someone you meet early on is going to die. Sometimes they will do so in a flashy way like Gorion, and sometimes they'll go out whimpering like Wilson, but no matter what, they're doomed from the start. I can't wait to see who dies in ME3.

Modifié par Darth Wolfenbarg, 23 février 2011 - 09:40 .

[Vahe]

Amioran wrote...

Vahe wrote...

Oh nice, you listed a bunch of authors and you think that means something. 

 
Certainly, it means EVERYTHING. You said it is a "rookie mistake" of writers, yet some of the most talented writers (I forgot Wilde in the list) did just that.

Sorry, but you failed.

Vahe wrote...
The only time I have seen a character killed off at the very start and be emotionally connected to that character is Six Feet Under. 

What can I say, study a little more.

Specific examples please?  Go into detail. 

[Arttis]

You get emotionally connected to fictional characters?

When will the world return to normal?

Killing off the character works well for Bioware.

THe same way they leave a lot of loose ends.

lets them get away with technically making sense minus the full explaination for certain things.

[Vahe]

Darth Wolfenbarg wrote...

Are you kidding? It's practically a Bioware staple by now.

-Gorion
-Trask
-Jenkins
-Wilson
-Numerous origin exclusive characters
-Duncan

And probably others since I excluded NWN, Jade Empire, MDK2 and Shattered Steel. If you're in a Bioware game, someone you meet early on is going to die. Sometimes they will do so in a flashy way like Gorion, and sometimes they'll go out whimpering like Wilson, but no matter what, they're doomed from the start. I can't wait to see who dies in ME3.

I have little problem with Wesley's death.  That's not being put into question here.

You bring up a lot of games and characters, but they're out of context.  A more appropriate comparison would be if Kaiden or Ashley from Mass Effect died at the beginning of the game.

[TheSleazebag]

In DA3, your grandmother dies the very instant you press on new game. This is followed by a snarky comment by our character who looks like Bam Margera

[tasca1180]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

Vahe wrote...

I don't think I am alone in saying that I felt no emotional impact whatsoever when Bethany/Carver died.  None.  I felt the same when Wesley died.

Perhaps the point is not to bring you to wailing tears over the deaths of those characters, but to set up certain things for later, hmm?

Erm, I may have actually cried a little when Carver died. Bethany's voice breaking when she talked made all weepy. And when Aveline killed Wesley...  

[Morning808]

Vahe wrote...

I don't think I am alone in saying that I felt no emotional impact whatsoever when Bethany/Carver died.  None.  I felt the same when Wesley died.  It's a rookie mistake that a lot of writers make, but I didn't expect Gaider and his lackeys to fall victim to it.  Don't do anything major to characters you just meet, and don't go into their backstories either- it's not interesting unless we've had event-based experiences with these characters. 

I guess you haven't played many BioWare games? One of their many things that they do in their games is killing a starting teammate its one of their trademarks which I enjoy, Yes I had no connetion to them but I get a laugh at how they die (I loved ME2's "NECKSHOT!" and laugh in ME's since the teammate was annoying) and  and then feel bad when it affects my team...I wonder what will happen 10 years after their death?

[Vahe]

Morning808 wrote...

Vahe wrote...

I don't think I am alone in saying that I felt no emotional impact whatsoever when Bethany/Carver died.  None.  I felt the same when Wesley died.  It's a rookie mistake that a lot of writers make, but I didn't expect Gaider and his lackeys to fall victim to it.  Don't do anything major to characters you just meet, and don't go into their backstories either- it's not interesting unless we've had event-based experiences with these characters. 

I guess you haven't played many BioWare games? One of their many things that they do in their games is killing a starting teammate its one of their trademarks which I enjoy, Yes I had no connetion to them but I get a laugh at how they die (I loved ME2's "NECKSHOT!" and laugh in ME's since the teammate was annoying) and  and then feel bad when it affects my team...I wonder what will happen 10 years after their death?

I've played BG2, NWN, KOTOR, Jade Empire, ME 1/2, and DA:O.

As I said earlier, a more appropriate comparison would be if Kaiden or Ashley from Mass Effect died at the beginning of the game.

[Braag]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I just remembered. A bunch of people we don't know die at the beginning of the Witcher! How low can you sink BioWare?

Not a bunch. Just one (Leo).

But it shouldn't be a surprise that someone dies at the beginning of a BioWare game. It's a trend which they have been keeping up for a quite a while now. This time it just happened to be the players sister/brother.
My favorite is Jenkins though (Mass Effect) that guy was so annoying I was almost happy he died.

Modifié par Braag, 23 février 2011 - 09:50 .