28 réponses à ce sujet

[antigravitycat]

I am currently playing a Dwarf Commoner (great story btw.) Rogue, level 17 already. The build I imagine is somekind of Thug, fitting my characters background.
The style is like going dirty into the fight. Not like the stealthy cunning rogue. Backstabs are fine and dandy, but I do not bother much to get into the position just to perform them. It is more like a rogue going warrior.
Also I like to mix in some archery, firing some arrows at enemies while they approach, then switching weapons to melee them down.
Now I have problems on deciding on what attributes to raise from now on, because the attributes I set myself as a base are reached. Current strenght is at 38 (+6) and dexterity at 42 (+12). Like that I can get the essential Dual Wield talents (in Awakening) and wear heavier armor.
As main weapon I got The Veshialle and I'd like to keep an axe as my main -- after all I play a Dwarf and roleplay-wise it is just cool to have one wielding an axe. Offhand I hold The Edge dagger for speed purposes.

Crux of the matter now is actually whether to raise strenght or go with dexterity. This influences very much what weapons I will be using effectively.
I am unsure about what weapons I will hold in Awakening but I'd like to keep an axe mainweapon. That means actually I should better raise the strenght attribute to get more damage. The problem is that I like to meddle with the archery tree in my playstyle. In Awakening I could do more archery with Accuracy, but for that it would be better to raise dexterity...
So you see I am a bit stuck and don't know what attribute to favor. It would be nice to hear just what other people would do, what they favor and why. I am not a powergamer and don't look too much on pwn-dmg, but I play on nightmare and want to continue playing through smoothly, so far that was no problem.

So just give me your opinions, ideas, share your experience. Maybe that will help me making a decision. Thanks!

Edit: A question I asked myself... does raising strength increase crossbow damage?

Modifié par antigravitycat, 23 février 2011 - 11:22 .

[termokanden]

Crossbows do not scale with anything at all at this point and so they are generally considered rather useless. Bows on the other hand scale equally with dex and strength.



As for what I would do... Well I'd go for dual daggers and boost dex only. That would give you a character with high defense, good damage and good armor at the same time. Consider using The Rose's Thorn in your main hand for this, it's the best dagger in the game (one of the best weapons overall too).



Your other option is to keep The Veshialle and boost only strength (because dex doesn't give you damage for axes). This is certainly a viable option too, but it results in a lower defense than the other option.



In any case, do not set your attributes to what you'll want in Awakening. Not half an hour into the expansion you can buy a book that allows you to redistribute all your points.

[antigravitycat]

Thanks for your input termokanden! (that means thermos flask, right? ^^)
I totally forgot about the option to respec in Awakening with the tomes. I think I really don't want to put the axe aside and like the idea of having a more fierce and brute force rogue. Although that might contradict, so better call it a Thug.
The Rose's Thorn is definitely a nice weapon, with high dexterity it would the better option for me. I will get it anyway, just need to make some more potions to sell.
When I go the strength route I will also add some heavy armor, to compensate for the lower defense. And maybe try another heavy hitter weapon in the offhand. In Awakening I could get two Veshialle, that sounds pretty brutal.
Too bad for the archery -- I thought I could boost strength and use crossbows, but when there is no increase in damage. Unless I go for bows and dexterity it is useless. So I might just drop archery, in Origins it is quite weak when you don't specialize completely on it. :S

Modifié par antigravitycat, 23 février 2011 - 04:30 .

[Elhanan]

Stick with your build; it works fine. And DEX plus Accuracy in DAA will make your invested Archery and auto-fire a thing of deadly beauty; as good as any Elf.

An adj STR of 42 in DAO will let you wear any armor piece, as only a massive chest piece will slow RoF after Master Archer talent is obtained. Both Cailan's gloves and boots make a great set for any thug to punch/kick those Overwhelming foes in the teeth! Then max DEX as you had planned. Enjoy!

[USArmyParatrooper]

Unless you like wearing heavy armor for RP purposes think you're still better off going the Cunning rout. You can still wield the Biteback ax (no STR requirement), and I would put Voice of Velvet in your offhand.

With a Cunning build you're doing damage based on Cunning, and there's tons of equipment that boosts Dex and/or Cun as well as adding a chance of dodge. Basically you can end up with a very high dodge rate, even 100%, and this is with equipment you would want to have anyway (example, Voice of Velvet has 25%, Battledress 15%, etc.)

Don't worry about positioning. With Coup De Grace back stabs just regularly happen on their own. And even when they're not a Cunning build still delivers big damage with a high strike speed, and even still DW has a plethora of fun weapon talents you can spam.

Basically there's nothing practical a STR build rogue can do that a CUN build can't, besides wearing heavy armor and using larger (and slower) weapons.

A cunning build rogue can even tank with the best of them.

Modifié par USArmyParatrooper, 23 février 2011 - 05:09 .

[termokanden]

antigravitycat wrote...

Thanks for your input termokanden! (that means thermos flask, right? ^^)

It does. Long story...

I totally forgot about the option to respec in Awakening with the tomes. I think I really don't want to put the axe aside and like the idea of having a more fierce and brute force rogue. Although that might contradict, so better call it a Thug.

You might want to check out Legionnaire Scout when you reach Awakening by the way.

When I go the strength route I will also add some heavy armor, to compensate for the lower defense. And maybe try another heavy hitter weapon in the offhand. In Awakening I could get two Veshialle, that sounds pretty brutal.

You actually can in Origins as well, but the only legitimate way is to sell The Reaper's Cudgel early. And yes it's pretty brutal!

Unless you like wearing heavy armor for RP purposes think you're still better off going the Cunning rout.

If you're backstabbing yes. If you want to play your rogue like a fighter with a few tricks up his sleeve, it's a different story because you wouldn't have the bonus backstab damage from Assassin. Furthermore, a high strength allows you to have heavy armor, which is great for survival for the non-sneaky rogue. But then you're not getting much out of Lethality at all.

Modifié par termokanden, 23 février 2011 - 05:17 .

[Jean de Valette]

I'm running through a STR based Rogue. Don't play one if you're looking for DPS. Your character will be MAD (a D&D term for multible attribute distribution). It's also quite inefficient as DA:O rewards sticking to one attribute.



But if you like the idea of a Rogue who can hold is own in straight up combat, doesn't wear leather pants/skirt but a descent pair of armour and weilds a real weapon instead of a pig-sticker, then try playing a STR rogue.

The major advantage is that this dual-weilder is far more versatile then a dual-weilding warrior and a leather-clad toothpick stabbing squishy CUN Rogue. The former is all about ability spamming (with no backstab or Rogue lockpicks) and the latter can't hold his own in a fight without people to back him up. A STR Rogue can do it all basically.



I myself am still doubting about putting on anything heavier then chainmail, but I'm quite impressed of what this Rogue can do. Still it's nothing like the meat grinder the CUN Rogue can be so stay away if you're min-maxing.

[Last Darkness]

Dex 32 (36 with Fade Boosts) all other points into Str.
This will allow you to get all the duel-wield talents and meet requirments for daggers and bows.
Spec = Bard/Duelist for maximum effect or Duelist/Ranger for a differant feel.
You are going to want to duel-wield two veshillae axes (Possible if you have the golems DLC beaten and have the mace to sell at the begining of the game) or veshiallhe and starfang or the rose thorn thrown into the combo somewhere. Armor well whatever you think is best but Cailens set and Evon+wades are pretty good for talent spamming and duel wiweld with heavy weapons its better to talent spam.

For your secondary weapon bow or crossbow are fine, you meet requiments and do comparable damage with both but if I had to pick id go Far Song Bow to pull enemies into range and maybe use some minor archery talents(Its not a good idea to spec in two diferant weapon talent trees until youve mastered one first)

This is a pretty good Thug Setup, add in Legionare Scout in Awakening and you will be set.


Race, Dwarf Commoner or City Elf in that Order I suggest.  Dwarfs get racial magic resist and combat fiendlier stats while city elf gets a more bloody story and access to "Fang" one of the best daggers in the game.

Modifié par Last Darkness, 23 février 2011 - 06:25 .

[antigravitycat]

Thank you all for the ideas!

Some mentioned that a cunning build will be more effective, I am aware of that, but still I'd like to cling to either dex or str. It is too late now to push cunning, I skilled it up to 22 for lockpicking only. Usually I only skill 16 cunning for coercion, so I added 6 more points than usual. That's within limits, but more points would be a waste since the most went into dex/str. And I'd rather not be a backstabber. Sooo... :S

Seems I missed the exploit to get two Veshialle in Origins, too bad, that would have been quite cool. But too late. Right now I tend to going the strength route...



Just before I looked at this thread again I bought Evon's mail, the one that Last Darkness mentioned. I think it will be my armor now, the stats look pretty fitting for the build I imagine. For the boots, I got Cadash Stompers now, will maybe swap them soon. As I read you can wear Evon's with one of Wade's sets, that might be what I should aim for in the future.

The thing I have really decided on is the specialization, I already got Duelist, that works fine indeed. Second spec... I have no idea actually. But when I reach Awakening I will definitely get Legionnaire Scout! Maybe Shadow beside the Legionnaire, not for the backstabbing bonus, but for the bonus you get on the melee critical chance and the "distraction" talents (each hit reduces enemy interest, Pandemonium talent etc.). Last time I got the Legionnaire/Shadow combo for Sigrun, she was really awesome.

[Amazon Queen]

Just go with whats best for the RP. Of course I'm not masochist enough to play on Nightmare but still you know you'll never get full satisfaction out of your Dwarven thug unless you DW axes.

[Cozarkian]

As for a second specialization, I like the idea of assassin, but only getting the first talent (Mark of Death).
That's very thuggish, gives a dexterity/crit bonus, and doesn't require high cunning or backstabs. It also leaves
extra talent points for archery or maxing out dual wielding.

As for attributes, I would favor strength, maybe +2 Str/+1 Dex per level, with a point or two in Willpower as needed.

[USArmyParatrooper]

antigravitycat wrote...

Thank you all for the ideas!
Some mentioned that a cunning build will be more effective, I am aware of that, but still I'd like to cling to either dex or str. It is too late now to push cunning, I skilled it up to 22 for lockpicking only. Usually I only skill 16 cunning for coercion, so I added 6 more points than usual. That's within limits, but more points would be a waste since the most went into dex/str. And I'd rather not be a backstabber. Sooo... :S
Seems I missed the exploit to get two Veshialle in Origins, too bad, that would have been quite cool. But too late. Right now I tend to going the strength route...

Just before I looked at this thread again I bought Evon's mail, the one that Last Darkness mentioned. I think it will be my armor now, the stats look pretty fitting for the build I imagine. For the boots, I got Cadash Stompers now, will maybe swap them soon. As I read you can wear Evon's with one of Wade's sets, that might be what I should aim for in the future.
The thing I have really decided on is the specialization, I already got Duelist, that works fine indeed. Second spec... I have no idea actually. But when I reach Awakening I will definitely get Legionnaire Scout! Maybe Shadow beside the Legionnaire, not for the backstabbing bonus, but for the bonus you get on the melee critical chance and the "distraction" talents (each hit reduces enemy interest, Pandemonium talent etc.). Last time I got the Legionnaire/Shadow combo for Sigrun, she was really awesome.

If it's too late for Cunning I would definately pump STR and some into DEX. For Armor there's some interesting mixes you can go with, like Evans the Great with Cailan's greaves and gloves.. but I think the Cailan's armor set is the best armor in Origins. Just know that it's upgradable if you got too early (as in it's less than teir 7).

[SuicidalBaby]

He said thug and still gets people preaching min/max. THIS IS A RP BUILD! Stop pushing your preset boring builds on the man, err dwarf.

Gotta give it up for your style. Haven't played one since Baulders Gate2. GL.

[Elhanan]

My DAO Rogue builds are always Duelist/ Assassins; don't care for the other two specs. For Assassin, the talents are optional for me. I prefer taking Cunning 30 and Deft Hands (4) to work almost every trap and lock. Add Legion Scout for DAA for the win!

FWIW - It is this design that I first used to defeat the Harvester in order to see how it could be done for other builds.

[Sandbox47]

You have a rogue using strength!? What a waste of talent. No offence, but a full-blooded rogue is the single-most powerful thing in the game if you can apply it correctly. Especially with the ability to call upon a bear, the rogue is invaluable as a scout and there is no way you'll fail to kill an enemy with a combination of a freakish trap and a few flame bombs. Only a mage could maybe do as well as a rogue, but... yeah.

[Elhanan]

Sandbox47 wrote...

You have a rogue using strength!? What a waste of talent. No offence, but a full-blooded rogue is the single-most powerful thing in the game if you can apply it correctly. Especially with the ability to call upon a bear, the rogue is invaluable as a scout and there is no way you'll fail to kill an enemy with a combination of a freakish trap and a few flame bombs. Only a mage could maybe do as well as a rogue, but... yeah.

Yes; what a waste.

Being able to withstand Overwhelm, Grabs, and other special attacks that don't bother to check if your DEX build is untouchable or not. Or being able to go toe-to-toe instead of dancing about for Backstab positioning with your CUN build.

Being able to kill foes at range with a heavy armored Master Archer, then seeing the surprised looks on the faces of the Darkspawn that just discovered you are even deadlier in melee while you place a massive armored boot to their jaw before bearing an axe or other large weapon. This, plus having the same traps, grenades, backstabs, stealth, disarming abilities, etc as both the min/ max builds for meager investments in those attributes makes it even more pleasing.

No offense taken.

[termokanden]

Yes, strength rogues are also good. Particularly if you don't want to backstab all the time.



PS: When can we have another argument about willpower?

[Elhanan]

termokanden wrote...

Yes, strength rogues are also good. Particularly if you don't want to backstab all the time.

PS: When can we have another argument about willpower?

  

My Rogues do have 20-30 Willpower too, now that you mention it.

[USArmyParatrooper]

Elhanan wrote...

Yes; what a waste.

Being able to withstand Overwhelm, Grabs, and other special attacks that don't bother to check if your DEX build is untouchable or not. Or being able to go toe-to-toe instead of dancing about for Backstab positioning with your CUN build.

Being able to kill foes at range with a heavy armored Master Archer, then seeing the surprised looks on the faces of the Darkspawn that just discovered you are even deadlier in melee while you place a massive armored boot to their jaw before bearing an axe or other large weapon. This, plus having the same traps, grenades, backstabs, stealth, disarming abilities, etc as both the min/ max builds for meager investments in those attributes makes it even more pleasing.

No offense taken.

I think the special attacks point you make is a valid one, as is being able to wear heavier armor. In my opinion, the way the game is designed larger weapons are inferior because their damage increase doesn't make up for their slower attack speed. BUT, that is also a valid point if you simply prefer them for roll playing reasons, or just the fact that they look cooler.

I fully agree with your greater point, that STR builds are not a waste. But I definately believe overall Cunning builds are much more effective.

Modifié par USArmyParatrooper, 24 février 2011 - 05:41 .

[SuicidalBaby]

Or maybe he's just having fun. My god, the game is easy as is on nightmare. This is a genius build imo. Any class can solo this game, why make the same boring run everytime?

[USArmyParatrooper]

Suicidal, I assumed he asked for advice on which attribute he should start pumping for a reason

[SuicidalBaby]

Yes, he did. And you still ignore his question while you attempt to shove it in my face! He asked about str or dex, not cunning. Specificly stated he wasnt back stabbing and you continue to harp on about that min/max build to someone who is not looking to min/max. Hes looking to roleplay his build, but do it effectively. The point was made in his OP. Drop the cunning sermons.

[USArmyParatrooper]

SuicidialBaby wrote...

Yes, he did. And you still ignore his question while you attempt to shove it in my face! He asked about str or dex, not cunning. Specificly stated he wasnt back stabbing and you continue to harp on about that min/max build to someone who is not looking to min/max. Hes looking to roleplay his build, but do it effectively. The point was made in his OP. Drop the cunning sermons.

You are absolutely 100% correct that I still ignore his question. Well, except for the part where I didn't ignore his question.

Quote from Me:
If it's too late for Cunning I would definately pump STR and some into
DEX. For Armor there's some interesting mixes you can go with, like
Evans the Great with Cailan's greaves and gloves.. but I think the
Cailan's armor set is the best armor in Origins. Just know that it's upgradable if you got too early (as in it's less than teir 7).

[SuicidalBaby]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

Unless you like wearing heavy armor for RP purposes think you're still better off going the Cunning rout. You can still wield the Biteback ax (no STR requirement), and I would put Voice of Velvet in your offhand.

With a Cunning build you're doing damage based on Cunning, and there's tons of equipment that boosts Dex and/or Cun as well as adding a chance of dodge. Basically you can end up with a very high dodge rate, even 100%, and this is with equipment you would want to have anyway (example, Voice of Velvet has 25%, Battledress 15%, etc.)

Don't worry about positioning. With Coup De Grace back stabs just regularly happen on their own. And even when they're not a Cunning build still delivers big damage with a high strike speed, and even still DW has a plethora of fun weapon talents you can spam.

Basically there's nothing practical a STR build rogue can do that a CUN build can't, besides wearing heavy armor and using larger (and slower) weapons.

A cunning build rogue can even tank with the best of them.

quote by you......
Never mind that I was speaking in general to everyone pushing min/max to someone who specificly said that was what they did not want in order to keep it interesting

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 25 février 2011 - 04:05 .

[SuicidalBaby]

"If it's too late for Cunning......" you prove my point for me. As if cunning is the only smart way to go.