86 réponses à ce sujet

[Rolenka]

I just bought ME2, so you'll have to bear with me.

What is it they are supposed to do? The loading screen tooltip says ejecting thermal clips keeps weapons cool. So is each "shell" like, a little capsule of coolant? Or what?

Humanity has had weapons that fire bullets without overheating for hundreds of years. Yes, heat is a problem if you modify the weapon or don't use or maintain it properly, but no military in the world has that problem. So the ME1 system was closer to reality. Just ease off the trigger once in awhile.

I see from the wiki that firearms in Mass Effect fire little bits of metal shaved off of a block which are shrunk by a mass effect field and somehow propelled forward (no propellant is named). I suppose the implication is that this process creates a lot of heat; enough to melt your weapon in one shot if you don't have a thermal clip.

I fail to see how this is an improvement over present day firearms. Instead of hauling around ammo, you haul around coolant. And if there's a problem with the weapon, instead of jamming, it melts your hands off or something.

Have we figured out what the deal is?

[DocGriffin]

The problem is that it's a game. Subconsciously, it seems a little more futuristic to not rely on ammo.



You're right that it's not any more efficient hauling thermal clips around. It doesn't have to be.

[LordEurope]

Propellent is magnetic acceleration.



The heat problem I guess is from the high speed the rounds travel at trough the weapon. Causing a lot of friction.



Thermal clips are not coolants but they store all the heat generated by the weapons. When they are full you eject them and slap a new one in. Allowing for an almost continues barrage of fire if the swap is quick. Unlike in ME1 where you had to wait.



It's all in the codex

[keboo]

This is mostly a gameplay change and yes it's explained ingame in the codex somewhere.

Edit:
It was long thought that personal weapons had plateaued in
performance, but the geth proved all theories wrong. Mathematically
reviewing their combat logs, the geth found that in an age of kinetic
barriers, most firefights were won by the side who could put the most
rounds down-range the fastest. But combatants were forced to
deliberately shoot slower to manage waste heat, or pause as their
weapons vented.
To eliminate this inefficiency, the geth adopted detachable heat
sinks known as thermal clips. While organic arms manufacturers were
initially doubtful this would produce a net gain, a well-trained soldier
can eject and swap thermal clips in under a second. Faced with superior
enemy firepower, organic armies soon followed the geth's lead, and
today's battlefields are littered with these thermal clips.


http://masseffect.wi...ps#Small_Arms_2

Modifié par keboo, 23 février 2011 - 08:05 .

[sTrYkZ1LLa]

I think an advantage of thermal clips over ammo is that thermal clips are universal so that's why it's more efficient than hauling all types of ammo around.

[bombaclot]

i think its more of a gameplay thing to cap ammo on certain guns.

[SalsaDMA]

Rolenka wrote...

Humanity has had weapons that fire bullets without overheating for hundreds of years. Yes, heat is a problem if you modify the weapon or don't use or maintain it properly, but no military in the world has that problem. So the ME1 system was closer to reality. Just ease off the trigger once in awhile.

Something tells me you never tried firing a LMG? When I was in the army we had got round in trying out all the different weaponstypes, just in case we ended up needing to swap in for an emergency. The LMG is the most prone to overheat, but other weapons can get quite hot as well if you fire enough. The LMG was so bad that you need the assistant to swap out the barrel every now and then to be able to keep the weapon usable.  I am NOT over 'a hundred years' (quite alot less, in fact), so your asumption that heat haven't been an issue for hundres of years just reeks of ignorance of the actual area and wrong assumptions on your part.

Heat in weapons is a very real problem in modern arms as well. The Heckler & Koch G11 rifle had serious heat issues, for example, while it was being tested, and this was an assault rifle design that was attempted as late as the 80'ies. Here's an interesting line form the wiki of that particular weapon: "In addition, extracting a hot case removes heat from the system. As a result of doing away with traditional cases, the G11 became a safety
hazard and had to be withdrawn from the 1979 NATO trials. The high rate of fire and lack of cartridge cases made cooking-off a significant problem."

While cooking-off shouldn't be an issue as such in the 'propellant' used for ME weapons, conditional 'wear' of high heat still exists when you speed projectiles to ridcilous speeds. When looking at ME type of weapons, we can examine the wiki page for railguns, which follow a theory that is closer to ME type of weapons. Here we find this on heat: "Massive amounts of heat are created by the electricity flowing
through the rails, as well as by the friction of the projectile leaving
the device. The heat created by this friction itself can cause thermal
expansion of the rails and projectile, further increasing the frictional
heat. This causes three main problems: melting of equipment, decreased
safety of personnel, and detection by enemy forces. As briefly discussed
above, the stresses involved in firing this sort of device require an
extremely heat-resistant material. Otherwise the rails, barrel, and all
equipment attached would melt or be irreparably damaged.In practice the rails are, with most designs of railgun, subject to
erosion due to each launch; and projectiles can be subject to some
degree of ablation also, and this can limit railgun life, in some cases
severely.[/i][i]"

But you come here and claim that heat is not an issue... Because you have.... what exactly, to back up that statement?

Modifié par SalsaDMA, 23 février 2011 - 09:21 .

[Greybox_Inception]

they're battery+heat sink clips, that you get to eject immediately for a instant cooldown, and energized ammo.

[Gatt9]

They wanted to make a shooter instead of an RPG, and so they added ammo, because shooters have ammo.



That's the only purpose it serves, it doesn't add anything at all to the game.

[Chala]

I'll put it simple, in the first ME the ammo system had some issues that could ruin gameplay, like the "shoot your assault rifle during 5 min uninterrupted" a.k.a "unlimited ammo", so they decided to add thermal clips (that is just a fancy way to say ammo clip) this improves the gameplay a lot, but the main problem was the bad retcon they made saying that this clips were taken from the assault rifles of the geth when that wasn't true.. because of this you can see the rage of some member of the comunity about this problem... If you ask me, I don't care about the retcon THIS TIME, because for me the decision of using ammo clips was the best one.



PS: Sorry if I wrote something wrong, I speak spanish

[Adugan]

Ammo is universal too, its a giant block of whatever and a mass effect field chips little pieces off to be used as bullets.

[armass]

Honestly, i think more stupid was the retcon they made with ship "fuel".

Modifié par armass, 23 février 2011 - 11:58 .

[William Adama]

Passive cooling in ME1 was abandoned during the time of ME2. Waiting for heat sinks to disperse heat generated by small arms fire was too costly because regen shields became more advanced in both protective strength AND regen delay. By the time you dropped a persons shields, the weapon would have overheated and the enemies shields would have fully regenerated.

To compensate for this, thermal clips (containing expendable heat sinks) were used to replace passive cooling by capturing heat generated by a gun inside one of the expendable sinks and EJECTING it after it was saturated. That's what the glowing "bullet" shell is in the game. When shepard pulls on the weapon to eject the sink, one of the thermal clips sinks containing the heat is ejected and another is put in its stead. This increases rate of fire downrange, so that you can continure firing your weapon without waiting for it to cool.

The long tubes you collect in the game = thermal clips. The red lights on the clip = heat sink. Thermal clips go into the gun, the heat sink(s) collect the heat and are what is ejected.

[William Adama]

armass wrote...

Honestly, i think more stupid was the retcon they made with ship "fuel".

Why was the fuel thing stupid? ME1 ships had fuel. Read up on anti-proton thrusters.

[Whatever42]

It's not a retcon. They are saying the technology has changed since the first game, not that the old technology never existed. W. Adama summed it up well.

[William Adama]

I personally would like to see bolt action heat sink ejection in ME3, to remove that reload animation. Maybe the pause in between shooting could be the gun automatically replacing the ejected sink without shepard doing it manually. Just my opinion.

[ME_Fan]

Actually, the thermal clips are tiny, about the size of a thumb/ large bullet. So yes it is an improvement.

[The Spamming Troll]

William Adama wrote...

armass wrote...

Honestly, i think more stupid was the retcon they made with ship "fuel".

Why was the fuel thing stupid? ME1 ships had fuel. Read up on anti-proton thrusters.

the fuel thing is stupid because i shouldnt have to use fuel while im playing around on a little hologram thing inside the normandy. it doesnt make sense.

the ammo change only makes sense if you didnt play ME1. if you played ME1, firing a gun in ME2 shouldnt make much sense. call it retcon, or whatever you want. i simply call it an unneeded change no one asked for.

[Lumikki]

Hole Mass Effect series lore is total failure considering weapons. There is so many problems that what's the point, just think ME series weapons as magical. All problems solved.

[matteatspuppies]

a wizard did it

[William Adama]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

William Adama wrote...

armass wrote...

Honestly, i think more stupid was the retcon they made with ship "fuel".

Why was the fuel thing stupid? ME1 ships had fuel. Read up on anti-proton thrusters.

the fuel thing is stupid because i shouldnt have to use fuel while im playing around on a little hologram thing inside the normandy. it doesnt make sense.

the ammo change only makes sense if you didnt play ME1. if you played ME1, firing a gun in ME2 shouldnt make much sense. call it retcon, or whatever you want. i simply call it an unneeded change no one asked for.

Thermal clips are not stupid if you played ME1. If you recall, shields underwent MASSIVE improvements between 1 and 2. The provided better protection and faster shield regeneration.

As compensation, bullet caliber HAD to have been increased OR velocity of round had to have been increased. Increasing either of these things INCREASES the impact force of the round on the kinetic shield, making them fail faster. Look at the bullets that people shoot now in comparison to ME1, you can actually SEE the round now so I tend to think that small arms increased the round caliber to increase damage... another piece of evidence supporting this is the RECOIL effect shooting has on the player now.

Guns shoot bigger metal shavings at faster velocities means MORE HEAT caused by friction in the barrel. You can put frictionless X on any of these weapons but they would STILL overheat because the gun generates too much heat to cool passively. That's why clips were implemented.

Solved.

[b1n0ry]

You people hate conserving ammo 'cause all you want to do is always shoot at... stuff.



Personally, I don't mind it. Makes the gameplay better.

[Praetor Knight]

Rolenka wrote...

Have we figured out what the deal is?

Yes, they improve gameplay.

[Vit246]

What Bioware should've went with was a hybrid system between heating and thermal clips. Something like, if you overheat your weapon, you have to eject a clip out of a set number of clips. But if you can control the heating and firing rate, you'll never have to. Its the best compromise for a game like Mass Effect and for people who don't feel like constantly worrying about ammo and scrounging around on the battlefield for them.

[The Spamming Troll]

William Adama wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

William Adama wrote...

armass wrote...

Honestly, i think more stupid was the retcon they made with ship "fuel".

Why was the fuel thing stupid? ME1 ships had fuel. Read up on anti-proton thrusters.

the fuel thing is stupid because i shouldnt have to use fuel while im playing around on a little hologram thing inside the normandy. it doesnt make sense.

the ammo change only makes sense if you didnt play ME1. if you played ME1, firing a gun in ME2 shouldnt make much sense. call it retcon, or whatever you want. i simply call it an unneeded change no one asked for.

Thermal clips are not stupid if you played ME1. If you recall, shields underwent MASSIVE improvements between 1 and 2. The provided better protection and faster shield regeneration.

As compensation, bullet caliber HAD to have been increased OR velocity of round had to have been increased. Increasing either of these things INCREASES the impact force of the round on the kinetic shield, making them fail faster. Look at the bullets that people shoot now in comparison to ME1, you can actually SEE the round now so I tend to think that small arms increased the round caliber to increase damage... another piece of evidence supporting this is the RECOIL effect shooting has on the player now.

Guns shoot bigger metal shavings at faster velocities means MORE HEAT caused by friction in the barrel. You can put frictionless X on any of these weapons but they would STILL overheat because the gun generates too much heat to cool passively. That's why clips were implemented.

Solved.

shields are still shields. its not like shields didnt do what shields shouldnt do.

are overheating guns still overheating guns? yeah, sure. doesnt mean i needed to see a little number counter on my weapon. i loved never needing to reload, i loved never needing to find ammo crates, and i loved the unique feel gunplay had in ME1 simply because of the overheating mechanic. adding a stat driven aspect to weapons was interesting, weapon mods allowed for variety, and so on. the only downfall to weapons, was variety in type, but better implemented mods could have allowed for that.

dont even get me started on how absurd it is i finally find a tempest while stumbling across a random dead geth, on some random plant, on some random countertop. i forgot what we were talking about.