143 réponses à ce sujet

[Carfax]

JamesX wrote...
But that is not true.  So by adding and marketing a female lead you lose nothing and will gain more sales.  It is just the way it is.  Sex sells - always.

Sex sells yes, but what you're suggesting is outrageous.  You're suggesting that because most gamers are heterosexual males, having scantily clad leading women will sell more games..

Nothing is further from the truth.  First off, if any major developer did what you suggest, they would have to completely disregard plot and storyline.  The truth is, many of those successful games listed are based on the real World ie Call of Duty..  How are you going to justify having a female SAS soldier, when there aren't any that exist in the real World? 

Secondly, while heterosexual males enjoy looking at women, that doesn't mean they want to BE them, or play a game as them.

Most people, male or female, prefer to play games where in they play as someone of their own gender.  This is completely natural and normal.

Thirdly, what you suggest would likely alienate and infuriate female gamers, because it reduces them to mere sex objects. 

[Fiannawolf]

The only way Ill ever play a male hawke is if I can make him 5ft tall, 120 pounds and armed with a Q-tip blade +1000 vs Bunnies. Mage magic baby!!!

[Altima Darkspells]

Carfax wrote...


Actually, market data suggests that having female leads hurt sales, rather than increasing them because most gamers (particularly the hardcore gamers) tend to be males, and most males identify with their own gender primarily.

This is old data.  Some statistics state that women make up 40-50% of gaming.  The most lucrative business model of gaming--MMOs--tend to market heavily on female characters, too.

Also, it is flawed data, since in many cases, a game will not market that you can play as a female.  In fact, the only recent game I can think of off the top of my head that will be having a female lead will be a Tomb Raider, and that's still male marketing, because she's a sexual object for male lust as opposed to her own character.

Carfax wrote...
The statistics from Mass Effect show that 81% of people played DudeShep (whether once or many times is unknown) vs the 19% that played FemShep.

Flawed.  ME1 didn't even mention you could play as a female.  Out of the hundreds of demos, interviews, and so on, the only reference some people could find that you could play a different gender was an off-handed dev comment.

Some people didn't know you could play FemShep for half a year after ME was released.

Carfax wrote...

And despite how many people on this forum are proclaiming FemHawke the new queen, I guarantee that if Bioware publishes the stats, there will be many more people that play as DudeHawke than FemHawke.

Another ME syndrome.  While doing significantly better, everything being released from BioWare indicates that Hawke is male.  "You knew HIM even before HE was the Champion."  People may very well play Mike just because that seems to be the developer's intent.

Carfax wrote...

I support female gamers who want to play as female, because I understand that it's natural for people to identify with their own gender when making a PC; unless you're one of those people that play "remotely."

But if DA2 had FemHawke as the lead, sales would tank.. 

People cite sales and marketing for not giving female gamers their fair share, but after a while, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.  You don't market to women because, despite being a sizeable demographic, they're not the majority.  But because they're not marketed to, they feel no compulsion to buy a game.  So they're not marketed to.

It's a Catch 22.  And yet, despite the game industry treating female gamers like a dirty little secret, they've become the largest minority demographic outside of males ages 12-25.

Carfax wrote...

When I look at FemHawke, I see a young woman that looks more like a runway model than a hardened warrior.  Her neck is slim, and her arms are scrawny, her voice high and delicate, yet I'm supposed to believe she can whoop all that ass?

When I look at Gordon Freeman, I see a glasses wearing nerd who's more at home hitting complex machinery with a wrench with his PhD in Physics than beating in the heads of headcrabs, using a gravity gun to cut people in half with saw blades, etc.

Should attractive people only seek employment in the bedroom?

Carfax wrote...

Suspension of belief is a critical component of any game, and game developers have a hell of a time making female ACTION heroines that are attractive to look at, while still being capable.....which is why most game developers tend to forgo female lead characters altogether because ultimately it's a futile venture, as DA2 suggests.

The artists that came up with FemHawke didn't even try to make her look capable in any way.  Instead, they just focused on making her look attractive..

MaleHawke on the other hand looks strong, and has a deep and commanding voice.  He also looks to be in his 30s, while FemHawke looks to be in her 20s..

Why does this discrepancy exist, when both Hawkes are supposed to be the same person?

To anyone with an iota of sense, it's obvious..

And when was the last time that a game made an unattractive male lead?  Unless that male lead was hidden from view at all times.  Having attractive leads is nothing new.  It is a form of entertainment, and people do enjoy looking at the pretty one and rooting against the ugly one.

People can be physically strong or well trained enough to kick serious ass without their arms and legs looking like bulging sacks of meat.

[Eclipse_9990]

Tecumseh420 wrote...

Lady/femHawke should be canon.

HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! Hell no... 

[Kloreep]

Carfax wrote...

LOL thats absolute B.S..  How many of the high profile and upcoming games this year has a female lead character?  I can't think of any off the top of my head.  Crysis 2, Witcher 2, Deus Ex Human revolution, Gears of War 3, Batman Arkham City etc all have male leads.

That's rather circular logic. A "high profile" game is generally one that has been assigned a decent marketing budget. It's not a guarantee of sales, and to the extent that it is, that works against your point: if all it takes to make a game sell well is marketing, then surely games with female leads will sell well if they receive lots of marketing?

Some actual sales figures - which you reference, yes, but do not cite - would do much more to help your argument. Even there, though, I think there's simply a lack of good data. How many games come out that are really comparable to other top-selling games, aside from the lead character being (and, unlike Bioware games, always being) a woman? There are few enough games starring women to begin with, and take away the ones that get critically panned (that's some of what I mean by "comparable"), and you aren't left with a lot. Bayonetta is really the only recent game that comes to mind, though I'm sure I'm forgetting something else. Portal, I suppose.

Besides, given that Bioware seems to be doing okay with sales figures, having the option of a female lead doesn't seem to be a problem. Given that it's a Bioware game we are discussing here, it's not really a question of what's actually going to be in the game. Just a question of what gets marketed.

Carfax wrote...

When I look at FemHawke, I see a young woman that looks more like a runway model than a hardened warrior.  Her neck is slim, and her arms are scrawny, her voice high and delicate, yet I'm supposed to believe she can whoop all that ass?

Magic, darkspawn, and some dragon what turns in to a lady, and you complain about Lady Hawke's appearance?

As YukiDama says, appearance is deceiving. That's one of the more believable aspects of the DA world for me.

Carfax wrote...

Suspension of belief is a critical component of any game, and game developers have a hell of a time making female ACTION heroines that are attractive to look at, while still being capable.....which is why most game developers tend to forgo female lead characters altogether because ultimately it's a futile venture, as DA2 suggests.

How does DA2 suggest that? They went ahead and included the option for a female protagonist, and I have yet to see anyone from Bioware say they regret it.

I'm also dubious about your claim as to why game developers forgo female leads. See, for instance, No Female Heroes at Activision?

Carfax wrote...

MaleHawke on the other hand looks strong, and has a deep and commanding voice.  He also looks to be in his 30s, while FemHawke looks to be in her 20s..

Just what is a commanding voice? What would a woman's commanding voice sound like?

[Carfax]

rynluna wrote...

I don't think any 130lb person would be able to swing a greatsword in battle.  It is just a fantasy game and I and many others would rather play the game as LadyHawke.  If LadyHawke is not believable enough for you, then enjoy your manly MaleHawke who uses spells on people.  That is completely believable.

You don't get the point.  The point is that LadyHawke, IN COMPARISON to DudeHawke not only looks and sounds younger, but she looks a lot less capable and a lot weaker..

The question is why, when they're supposed to be the same person.

The answer is obvious, at least to me.

[Saphara]

Carfax wrote...

rynluna wrote...

I don't think any 130lb person would be able to swing a greatsword in battle.  It is just a fantasy game and I and many others would rather play the game as LadyHawke.  If LadyHawke is not believable enough for you, then enjoy your manly MaleHawke who uses spells on people.  That is completely believable.

You don't get the point.  The point is that LadyHawke, IN COMPARISON to DudeHawke not only looks and sounds younger, but she looks a lot less capable and a lot weaker..

The question is why, when they're supposed to be the same person.

The answer is obvious, at least to me.

Because being underestimated is a very potent way of kicking their ass?

[Eclipse_9990]

I can't really take Fem Hawkes voice seriously. When I hear Male Hawkes aggressive voice I'm actually sold on it. It sounds strong, commanding, and confident. Fem Hawkes aggressive voice has the intimidation factor of a kitten.

Though don't get me wrong. I've heard an intimidating woman yell. It IS scary. Its just that Fem Hawke doesnt fit the bill. 

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 24 février 2011 - 12:57 .

[madsabroo]

Altima Darkspells wrote...
People cite sales and marketing for not giving female gamers their fair share, but after a while, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.  You don't market to women because, despite being a sizeable demographic, they're not the majority.  But because they're not marketed to, they feel no compulsion to buy a game.  So they're not marketed to.

It's a Catch 22.  And yet, despite the game industry treating female gamers like a dirty little secret, they've become the largest minority demographic outside of males ages 12-25.

This, this, this, this, this, this, this.

If you never market to the growing number of female gamers, why on earth would you expect them to represent a significant statistic in sales?  That's Advertising 101.

[Captain Crash]

Carfax wrote...

The question is why, when they're supposed to be the same person.

The answer is obvious, at least to me.

You are joking right?   If you actually believe what your writing down I feel really sorry for you!

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

Well.... FemHawke looks great....

DudeHawke's look gets on my nerves. He's fugly.

[AlexXIV]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

I can't really take Fem Hawkes voice seriously. When I hear Male Hawkes aggressive voice I'm actually sold on it. It sounds strong, commanding, and confident. Fem Hawkes aggressive voice has the intimidation factor of a kitten.

Though don't get me wrong. I've heard an intimidating woman yell. It IS scary. Its just that Fem Hawke doesnt fit the bill. 

Neither voice convinced me as much as Jennifer Hale as femShep but I have to agree that I think that maleHawkes is a tad better than femHawkes. Not much, but noticable.

[Carfax]

octoberfire wrote...

And yet people are anticipating Catwoman's appearance in Arkham City. All the games you have listed are sequels. They're highly anticipated not because they have a male lead but because the game before it was good.

Yes, but the question is, why do all of those games feature male leads?  And why aren't there any similar high profile games with female lead characters?

Obviously, it sold so well because of its engaging male characters, not because of its highly regarded multiplayer system.

It was a rhetorical question.  The guy claimed that more men would buy games if they featured hot female lead characters.  I then retorted by stating that the highest selling game of all time CoD MW2, has no female lead character of any kind. 

Why? Because people are superficial enough to buy it based only on the lead's gender and not because, oh gee, Origins was an amazing game? If so, I've lost faith in humanity.

Because most people identify with their own gender, when playing these kind of games.. 

That goes for both men and women.  Most men would prefer to play a male soldier than a female one, and vice versa.

There's nothing superficial about this at all..

[AlexXIV]

Well my Hero of Ferelden is a dalish elven girl. She looked even less capable than femHawke and look what she did.

[Heather Cline]

Carfax wrote...

rynluna wrote...

I don't think any 130lb person would be able to swing a greatsword in battle.  It is just a fantasy game and I and many others would rather play the game as LadyHawke.  If LadyHawke is not believable enough for you, then enjoy your manly MaleHawke who uses spells on people.  That is completely believable.

You don't get the point.  The point is that LadyHawke, IN COMPARISON to DudeHawke not only looks and sounds younger, but she looks a lot less capable and a lot weaker..

The question is why, when they're supposed to be the same person.

The answer is obvious, at least to me.

First off many women who are 30 look like they are in their twenties or younger because they take care of themselves. Ever see a 50 year old woman look like she's 30? Take a look at Demi Moore in her 50's and doesn't look a day over 30. Women look better for a longer time than men do. Most men age at a more rapid pace physically. My own stepfather looked like he was 50 while being 40 because he drank booze, smoked cigarettes and didn't take care of himself. 

So no your point of Lady Hawke looking younger doesn't even remotely make logical sense. Furthermore men grow beards. Thus a beard makes a man look older than he really is. Also women's voices are higher pitched then mens and as such they always sound younger than a man. Unless they smoke so much that their voices get ruined from chain smoking and other problems.

You have no ground to stand on with your arguments Carfax.

[Invalidcode]

Good thing we can change the face of both male and female Hawke when the game comes out.



If one cannot be convinced that Lady Hawke should be capable of using a 2h in a fantasy game, RP her as a mage or a archer I guess?



I love the 'Super model runaway' description of her lol.

[AlexXIV]

Carfax wrote...

Because most people identify with their own gender, when playing these kind of games.. 

That goes for both men and women.  Most men would prefer to play a male soldier than a female one, and vice versa.

There's nothing superficial about this at all..

Honestly?

My take is that most males are scared to play a female because they fear they are less of a man afterwards, or just imagine their manly friends learn of it. It doesn't have much to do with identifying because I for one never identify with the player character directly. He or she is just the hero of the story, nothing more, nothing less. I actually find it a bit weird to identify with he main character so much. I mean he or she is not you, and never will be. So what's the point?

Modifié par AlexXIV, 24 février 2011 - 01:05 .

[Riona45]

Kloreep wrote...

Carfax wrote...

MaleHawke on the other hand looks strong, and has a deep and commanding voice.  He also looks to be in his 30s, while FemHawke looks to be in her 20s..

Just what is a commanding voice?

Obviously to Carfax it means a masculine voice.

[Heather Cline]

Alex is correct the male ego is easily bruised and fragile. Then you have the fact that there are transgender people who identify with a gender not their own. You have cross dressers who like to be female. You have women who like to play as men though they aren't cross dressers or transgender. It's logical to say that identifying with your own birth gender is a flawed argument because not everyone is like that.

[Kloreep]

Riona45 wrote...

Obviously to Carfax it means a masculine voice.

That's what I suspect, but I figured I'd ask the question and give Carfax a chance to surprise me.

[Eclipse_9990]

AlexXIV wrote...

Carfax wrote...

Because most people identify with their own gender, when playing these kind of games.. 

That goes for both men and women.  Most men would prefer to play a male soldier than a female one, and vice versa.

There's nothing superficial about this at all..

Honestly?

My take is that most males are scared to play a female because they fear they are less of a man afterwards, or just imagine their manly friends learn of it. It doesn't have much to do with identifying because I for one never identify with the player character directly. He or she is just the hero of the story, nothing more, nothing less. I actually find it a bit weird to identify witht he main character so much. I mean he or she is not you, and never will be. So what's the point?

What? Your opinion is stupid. Most men(including me) don't like to play as women in rpg's because it just doesnt feel right. They can't really connect or relate to the character as much as if they were the same gender. It has nothing to do with feeling like "less of a man" as you so uneloquently put it. It has to do with whats more comfortable, and most men(for people without reading comprehension I say MOST not ALL) would rather have their character be a dude, than a chick. 

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 24 février 2011 - 01:09 .

[adneate]

Opinion presented as fact tonight on correlation equals causation theater!

[Riona45]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...
What? Your opinion is stupid. Most men(including me) don't like to play as women in rpg's because it just doesnt feel right

Why not?

It has nothing to do with feeling like "less of a man" as you so uneloquently put it. It has to do with whats more comfortable, and most men(for people without reading comprehension I say MOST not ALL) would rather have their character be a dude, than a chick. 

But again, why?  It doesn't have anything to do with being socialized to shun anything "feminine?"