360 réponses à ce sujet

[Aynie]

Coming from a background of nearly a decade in tabletop gaming, I have to say I love the voiced PC; and to those of you suggesting that every tabletop gamer worth their salt should hate the voiced PC need to hop off the soapbox. To me, the complaints about an unvoiced PC are ... silly, but to each their own.



This way my Hawke can, y'know ... interact with this world, unlike my warden who stood there zombifyed before their love interests, or at the Landsmeet, or pick any random dialogue option in the first game and your Warden stood there with a thousand yard stare while the world passed 'em by.



If my Hawke can finally yell at her LI if they decide to go a-breaking her heart for some stupid reason like Old God Babies or, y'know, the "L" word makes them cringe; then I'm all for voice overs.

[Mutantsquirrel]

In Exile wrote...

Just what precisely is the restricton? This is putting the paraphrase aside for a second, because we are talking about VO and characterization here. I'm aware of the objection to the paraphrase as implementation, but that's a whole other can of worms that's independent of whether or not you have VO.

It's really not as independent as it may at first seem.  The paraphrasing is a direct result of VO simply because VO allows for paraphrasing.  If there were no VO there would be no paraphrasing.

[Drachjinor]

AlanC9 wrote...
You probably shouldn't use background choices to make that case. DAO is very much an outlier in terms of having, you know, origins. I can't actually think of any other RPGs with something like this except for Star Saga, which had multiple predefined characters.

But that's sorta my point. DA:O had multiple options for character backgrounds, or Origins. lol Is it possible to restrict those limited choices any further, yes.... DA:2. Is it possible to restrict a player's input in regards to a character they are using to navigate a world and experience a story? Yes. Give it a voice and name. How many options is the player left with? Far fewer than the original title, so few compared to many RPGs, and it's almost entering a different genre.

AlanC9 wrote...
As a long-time RPG player, I have never liked making up backgrounds in a CRPG. I liked having an actual home town in BG1.

But as a long time RPGamer you've more often than not had the option to do so. Where you didn't choose to, a great many did, me thinks. Options are good. The more the better IMO.

Modifié par Drachjinor, 24 février 2011 - 07:14 .

[AlanC9]

And going back a bit.....

Drachjinor wrote...

Whereas a genuine RPG offers: My elf sports a noble heritage and background and was heir to a vast fortune, but was almost assassinated by agents of her younger, jealous sibling, but escaped and was forced into exile. In exile she encountered a merry band of dwarves from the far reaches of Fantasy Mountain who took her in and blah blah, here she was trained by a similarly exiled human mage, outcast for reasons I'll go into another time. Now on the road to Neverwhere she encountered so-and-so, and so... my game in a BioWare fantasy setting, in a PC RPG began...

... generic, sure, but for the sake of the point I'm making it had to be. lol I prefer that kind of creative freedom to: You are Hawke. I can get that in pretty much every other genre of game.

Drachjinor, if you actually mean what you've been writing, then a lot of RPGs are not "genuine RPGs." 

Do you actually mean what you've been writing? Or do you just mean something a little more reasonable, like "I really like games where you can make up your own background, even though Bio doesn't seem to agree with me about this"?

[eucatastrophe]

Sabariel wrote...

I prefer a mute protagonist as I can give them whatever voice I want. However voiced protagonists are "the wave of the future" so I'm screwed

This comment made me laugh for some reason.

I feel the same way you do.

[AlanC9]

Drachjinor wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
You probably shouldn't use background choices to make that case. DAO is very much an outlier in terms of having, you know, origins. I can't actually think of any other RPGs with something like this except for Star Saga, which had multiple predefined characters.

But that's sorta my point. DA:O had multiple options for character backgrounds, or Origins. lol Is it possible to restrict those limited choices any further, yes.... DA:2. Is it possible to restrict a player's input in regards to a character they are using to navigate a world and experience a story? Yes. Give it a voice and name. How many options is the player left with? Far fewer than the original title, so few compared to many RPGs, and it's almost entering a different genre.

Again, DA2 is no more restrictive in terms of background than BG1.

]AlanC9 wrote...
As a long-time RPG player, I have never liked making up backgrounds in a CRPG. I liked having an actual home town in BG1.

But as a long time RPGamer you've more often than not had the option to do so. Where you didn't choose to, a great many did, me thinks. Options are good. The more the better IMO.

In the RPGs I have liked best I did not have that option. In BG your character comes from Candlekeep. Period. In Fallout you come from the Vault. Period.  In Fallout 2 you come from Arroyo. Period. In KotOR 2 you are the Exile. Period. In Planescape:Torment you are TNO. Period. Should I go on?

Of course, I've also played games like Morrowind, NWN1, and Storm of Zehir, where I did get to make up a background. I've generally found those games to be worse, as RPGs.

Modifié par AlanC9, 24 février 2011 - 07:37 .

[Drachjinor]

AlanC9 wrote...

Do you actually mean what you've been writing? Or do you just mean something a little more reasonable, like "I really like games where you can make up your own background, even though Bio doesn't seem to agree with me about this"?

Mean what I've been writing about how a character provided to the player restricts the player when it comes to character creation? Seems patently obvious to me. The character is already there. lol In gaming terms you can't stray from it. In story terms he was named by parents, and lived a certain life up to a certain point, very little about him or her is created by the player. Where then are the options? In the game as you play? How many times can you play that differently without it feeling like exactly the same character with minor difference, fewer NPC reactions to race or alignment or whatever?

I'll compile a list if you like, when I've had some sleep. But of BioWare titles that spring to mind right now though. KotOR's central character came without a background, seemingly a low ranking nobody. Neverwinter Nights provided a character whose story began as a recruit, with no background.

On the BG engine Black Isle's Icewind Dale started out with a party of adventurers in a tavern, come looking for adventure in the Spine of the World. Multiplayer meant this party was made up of six players all sporting characters they'd created from scratch, with backgrounds and personalities that were entirely their own. Who they were, how they got there, essentially everything about them was provided by the players. Dialogue choices often could define a character or you could avoid delving. Could learn about the other players' characters as you role-played with them.

Player choices defined race, class, basic skills or a rolled starting set, and often a starting alignment. Essentially the character the player controlled was of the player's making. How they came to be of a certain alignment, how they came to be rogues, mages, sorcerers, fighters, whatever... how they came by their name...

AlanC9 wrote...

Again, DA2 is no more restrictive in terms of background than BG1.

But is more restricted than DA:O.

Modifié par Drachjinor, 24 février 2011 - 07:48 .

[AlanC9]

Drachjinor wrote...
Mean what I've been writing about how a character provided to the player restricts the player when it comes to character creation? Seems patently obvious to me. The character is already there. lol In gaming terms you can't stray from it. In story terms he was named by parents, and lived a certain life up to a certain point, very little about him or her is created by the player. Where then are the options? In the game as you play? How many times can you play that differently without it feeling like exactly the same character with minor difference, fewer NPC reactions to race or alignment or whatever?

How many times? About as many as I'd play a game anyway. Actually, I average fewer playthroughs of games like Morrowind and the NWN1 OC, not more.

I was really asking if you were serious about that "genuine RPG" line, but that seems to be hyperbole the more I think about it.

Yep, I remember IWD. Never played it, precisely because the idea of creating a whole party has no appeal whatsoever. I may pick it up sometime since I've heard there's a pretty good mod project with joinable NPCs. Still no background, but you can't have everything.

[dangeraaron]

The voice acting itself is not what I dislike. I do like voice acting, really. As far as only haveing a couple choices that aren't in the extended questioning, I can live with it. I just dislike how this was a partial factor in limiting race options. Humans, Elves, and Dwarves don't sound so completly different to the point a single voice actor couldn't pull it off. Despite me joining about...10 mintues ago, I can tell this issue has been well worn by now, so I'll leave it at that.

I just hope they don't continue the trend with future ME, DA, or other IPs where your character is a fixed human. If they come out with a DA3, I hope you can pick an Elf or Dwarf...or possibly Qunari. I'm still hoping for some creative DLC though, but I'll get through it.

Edit:  Also, as far as this game not being an RPG, well it is an RPG even though it is sort of watering down some of its elements. 

Modifié par dangeraaron, 24 février 2011 - 07:52 .

[AlanC9]

Drachjinor wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Again, DA2 is no more restrictive in terms of background than BG1.

But is more restricted than DA:O.

Yep. So frelling what?

[Drachjinor]

AlanC9 wrote...

I was really asking if you were serious about that "genuine RPG" line, but that seems to be hyperbole the more I think about it.

Oh, lol, yeah it was. Sorry. Ha.

Of the games you mentioned I think only Planescape really restricts the character creation, because you don't actually create anything. Whereas a character coming from Candlekeep could have been born of parents hailing from the Chultan Peninsula, which would explain the darker skin and strange accent, and that weird name he has!

It's as vague as a Mage coming from the Circle of Magi in Dragon Age: Origins. How old was she when she was sent there? Were her circumstances as dramatic as Wynne's? Or was she some daughter of a merchant who sent her off quick as Pan the moment he noticed she was witchified? Depending on the player, and on the player's view of her background, she could be a hardened street urchin turned mage who has a nasty temper and short fuse from her street dwelling days, or she could be a gracious noble whose first experience came through a Blood Mage, before she was shipped off to the tower. But she never stopped practising.

All little details which would affect the player's decisions in dialogue, and decisions in restricting some attributes, like say, she's from a far off region and the local food never sat well with her, making her constitution terrible. lol Role-playing fun beyond boosting skills and power-gaming with a cool character ready-made for you with a name, a voice, and a tendency to pronounce things in certain ways, in a certain accent. lol

Calls on the Beth forums to offer a bit more freedom than the Vault Dweller for New Vegas. You get a vague Courier. So, when you take away the option to choose a name and race and in my case a background, just to add a voice, (entirely IMO...) you've lost more than you've gained as a player. *shrug*

Modifié par Drachjinor, 24 février 2011 - 08:19 .

[Big stupid jellyfish]

Drachjinor wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

I was really asking if you were serious about that "genuine RPG" line, but that seems to be hyperbole the more I think about it.

Oh, lol, yeah it was. Sorry. Ha.

Of the games you mentioned I think only Planescape really restricts the character creation, because you don't actually create anything. Whereas a character coming from Candlekeep could have been born of parents hailing from the Chultan Peninsula, which would explain the darker skin and strange accent, and that weird name he has!

It's as vague as a Mage coming from the Circle of Magi in Dragon Age: Origins. How old was she when she was sent there? Were her circumstances as dramatic as Wynne's? Or was she some daughter of a merchant who sent her off quick as Pan the moment he noticed she was witchified? Depending on the player, and on the player's of view of her background, she could be a hardened street urchin turned mage who has a nasty temper and short fuse from her street dwelling days, or she could be a gracious noble whose first experience came through a Blood Mage, before she was shipped off to the tower. But she never stopped practising.

All little details which would affect the player's decisions in dialogue, and decisions in restricting some attributes, like say, she's from a far off region and the local food never sat well with her, making her constitution terrible. lol Role-playing fun beyond boosting skills and power-gaming with a cool character ready-made for you with a name, a voice, and a tendency to pronounce things in certain ways, in a certain accent. lol

You know, I have no problems coming up with interesting background details for my FemShepard despite some facts being predefined, and I assume it would be the same for Hawke. Sure, you have less freedom than you did in, say, BG series. So use the key points given to make a start and build your Hawke around them! There are still many, many blind spots in Hawke's background waiting for you to fill them in. How did you start learning magic? Who was your father and where was he from? What was your relationship with him? What did he tell you about apostates and magic in general? Did he teach you to be careful with it or did he hate templars, and you share this feeling? Sorry for the crappy questions - I've made the up on the spot - and something could've been covered by the demo already - I didn't play it. But you get the idea. )

I understand how the current system may be frustrating if you like having as much control over your character as possible. Try, however, finding a pleasure in playing with a character that has some mind and will on his/her own; it's not about actually controlling or having power over him/her, it's more like working with the character. You aren't a puppleteer and a doll, you are more of a 'guardian angel' for someone who is a separate being.

Sometimes - rarely - I find Shepard saying or doing things that suprize me and seem to be OOC to some extent. In that case it is either me choosing the wrong dialogue option (=giving her a poor piece of advice) or she has a reason to say/do what she does, it's just that I don't know what's going on her mind yet. Spend a minute thinking about your character and you'd understand him or her, you'd understand the reason why he/she said or did something that seemed OOC at first, and your connection with the character becomes even deeper. (There are a couple of scenes where this method doesn't work for me, though - like talking for a bit with Jacob. Maybe three or four scenes in the whole game; don't bother me much, honestly.)

I guess the point of this rant is not to prove that my pov is superior (because it isn't), but to show you the positive sides of having such a protagonist; positive sides that, as far as I'm aware, weren't brought up before. Maybe I can help you enjoy roleplaying your Hawke a bit more. Maybe you'd find my tips useful.

/rant

Modifié par Big stupid jellyfish, 24 février 2011 - 09:08 .

[17thknight]

Purgatious wrote...

The days of emotionless, voiceless characters presenting us with selections of text, making us feel like the NPCs, completely disconnected from the character were interacting with are over. Get over it, or don't either way its gone.

So the days of actual RPG's are gone, and the days of "cinematic" this and "cinematic" that which are easy to slap out for the xbox fanboys are in. Lovely.

People like you are the death-knell of great games. I bet you'd poo-poo Planescape: Torment because you have to..gasp...read.

[Gibb_Shepard]

What pisses me off about it is the level of schizophrenia the main character displays. It's impossible to choose an intimidate option then a diplomatic option without Hawke sounding like he has dual personality. His tone goes from stern to lovey dovey instantly. Is it not possible to be an intimidating diplomat in this game?

[AlanC9]

Drachjinor wrote...
Of the games you mentioned I think only Planescape really restricts the character creation, because you don't actually create anything. Whereas a character coming from Candlekeep could have been born of parents hailing from the Chultan Peninsula, which would explain the darker skin and strange accent, and that weird name he has!

You are not remembering correctly. In BG you come to Candlekeep as an infant; it's not even likely that Gorion knew the name your mother gave you.This is nothing at all like the Tower in DAO, since you don't have any experiences outside of Candlekeep.

You still have some flexibility in how the PC grew up in Candlekeep, of course. But you'll have that in DA2 as well.

So, when you take away the option to choose a name and race and in my case a background, just to add a voice, (entirely IMO...) you've lost more than you've gained as a player. *shrug*

You've lost something; I have not. All of my favorite games have restricted backgrounds except for DAO, which has one vague background and five restricted ones.

[17thknight]

AlanC9 wrote..

You've lost something; I have not. All of my favorite games have restricted backgrounds except for DAO, which has one vague background and five restricted ones.

It was the most interesting and fresh idea DA:O had. It was a huge draw for the game.

Rather than expanding on it, and improving it...they ruined it. Completely. It's ludicrous.

And worse they didn't even do it to make a new or fresh game system, they just copy-pasted Mass Effect onto Dragon Age.

[tmp7704]

AlanC9 wrote...

Drachjinor wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Again, DA2 is no more restrictive in terms of background than BG1.

But is more restricted than DA:O.

Yep. So frelling what?

So that's effectively undoing an improvement and going back to more stiffling model of the past.

[Sereaph502]

Sigh...Saying "true RPGs are dead" just because you can't make up (yes, make up. It has no effect on the game whatsoever, Sad, isn't it?) every single detail about your character is, for the lack of a better word, stupid and immature.



That's the same as me saying ME2 isn't a true RPG because you aren't weighed down by piles of loot around every single corner---Oh wait, that was one of the main complaints by the vocal minority, too.



You don't like it? Don't buy it. Considering March 8th is a hop, skip and a jump away, Bioware is NOT going to redesign the entire game. That is a fact.

[Drachjinor]

Big stupid jellyfish wrote...

Sometimes - rarely - I find Shepard saying or doing things that suprize me and seem to be OOC to some extent. In that case it is either me choosing the wrong dialogue option (=giving her a poor piece of advice) or she has a reason to say/do what she does, it's just that I don't know what's going on her mind yet. Spend a minute thinking about your character and you'd understand him or her, you'd understand the reason why he/she said or did something that seemed OOC at first, and your connection with the character becomes even deeper. (There are a couple of scenes where this method doesn't work for me, though - like talking for a bit with Jacob. Maybe three or four scenes in the whole game; don't bother me much, honestly.)

I guess the point of this rant is not to prove that my pov is superior (because it isn't), but to show you the positive sides of having such a protagonist; positive sides that, as far as I'm aware, weren't brought up before. Maybe I can help you enjoy roleplaying your Hawke a bit more.Maybe you'd find my tips useful.

I can appreciate that, really. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie]

I don't doubt I'd have a good experience with the game if it's well designed and written even with a character fully-fleshed out - though I know Hawke isn't - and not even a choice to choose gender. I know I would because I've played action games, survival horrors, and some turn-based strategy JRPGs that have used almost exactly the same format. I make a certain decision along the way and my experience is tempered by each, shaped into something approaching a unique adventure different from the next gamers' experience. (Not greatly different.) And it being all round a good way to spend some gaming time. But it isn't what I look for in a RPG.

My first Hawke, I fill in all the details that are left for me, I choose a gender and a class. Then on my second play-through, I disregard all the filling-in I did on my first play-through and play a different Hawke? If I wanted this experience I'd have played NwN and other RPGs through a few times using the exact same characters with a different class. Same name, and backgrounds, but just a few tweaks here and there. I never felt compelled to do that given an option of races, with class-restrictions on some, and race-specific abilities on others. I can have a very different experience across play-throughs not just with a different build, but with a different character making decisions for different reasons depending on whether that character is in a minority, or is a rare sight in the setting, or sports rare abilities. Staying true to something I'm not, like a man trying to make his way when he belongs to a minority. I suppose a Dalish elf would qualify. Discriminated against. What's that like? Let's role-play and find out.

Depending on class I have NPCs that liked my last charater in my first play-thorugh, hating on my new character in my second. Because they happen to be racist, or xenophobic, or they fear magic, or elves, or shady characters with a rogue gait. lol Replayability is increased, and my input is demanded. You have to be true to your character, depending on origin, racial background, upbringing etc. Not so with this you are what we're telling you are format. DA:2 was wide open, opportunities abounding to introduce new races, origins and experiences. Instead they elected to implement... something else.

AlanC9 wrote...

You've
lost something; I have not. All of my favorite games have restricted
backgrounds except for DAO, which has one vague background and five
restricted ones.

That's basically what I said earlier. They're catering to single group and dropping everything else. They're changing the franchise when the first game set a precedent. Where multiple starting locations and backgrounds (you say five restricted and one vague) is still far more than one race and one background with a slight tweak in a choice of class and gender and very little in how much a player can see their own characters realised in the game.

I have lost something. It's interest in the franchise. lol I was late to the party, but I can still lap up the first offering and its DLC. lol

Sereaph502 wrote...

Sigh...Saying "true RPGs are dead" just because you can't make up (yes, make up. It has no effect on the game whatsoever, Sad, isn't it?) every single detail about your character is, for the lack of a better word, stupid and immature.

You don't like it? Don't buy it. Considering March 8th is a hop, skip and a jump away, Bioware is NOT going to redesign the entire game. That is a fact.

I haven't said RPGs are dead, at least. I just don't like the direction BioWare are taking their fantasy setting. Heh ha. Already said too I intend not to buy it. Not giving my views because I expect change and turnaround, not even demanding a change. Just uh, exchanging views.

Modifié par Drachjinor, 24 février 2011 - 10:10 .

[keginkc]

I find it to be so much more engaging than reading text. It's the same reason that The Old Republic appeals to me. I have a tendency to zone out when I see text boxes, even if it's the first time I've seen them.



(and I'm not new to the genre by any stretch, I used to zone out playing Zork: The Great Underground Empire)

[keginkc]

Urk, double.

Modifié par keginkc, 24 février 2011 - 10:11 .

[Naitaka]

I think it comes down to something very simple. The fact is, an unvoiced PC cannot surprise me with his/her line when it's all written out.  Even though the NPC's response might be unexpected, it makes sense because that's quite possible in any conversation. However, a voiced PC with paraphrasing OFTEN surprises me with what he/she says which instantly makes me feel like I'm more of a director than the actor him/herself.

Modifié par Naitaka, 24 février 2011 - 02:22 .

[Maconbar]

Naitaka wrote...

I think it comes down to something very simple. The fact is, a unvoiced PC cannot surprise me with his/her line when it's all written out even though the NPC's response might be unexpected, it makes sense because that's quite possible in a conversation. However, a voiced PC with paraphrasing OFTEN surprises me with what he/she which instantly makes me feel like I'm more of a director than the actor him/herself.

Your observation regarding the paraphrasing is a reasonable one. For whatever reason when I am playing a crpg I usually find myself acting as the director. I think that I prefer directing characters that have a backstory. Morrowind was probably the only crpg that I really enjoyed where I was a conventional "blank-slate".

[Xewaka]

I don't dislike the voice per se. I utterly despise the need they felt to attach it to the misleading, lying, cheating implement that is the paraphrase wheel. Full written dialogue would avoid many, many frustrated reloads because the damn moron said explicitly the opposite of what the paraphrase hinted he/she would say.

[Lord Orgasmatron]

I like the voice, because in Origins, the Warden felt like a manequin just standing around, turning his head, not doing anything ... in 2, he(she) talks, moves her face and body (although Lady Hawke sure has some weird animations )