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Swords are not "heavy," because they shouldn't be.


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#76
Sylvius the Mad

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Stiler wrote...

Swords in themselves aren't that heavy, historically most swords were around three  pounds, the even bigger two handers could easily be under 5 pounds to around 7 pounds. Any sword that is ten, let alone twenty+ pounds is simply not viable for combat.

http://www.thearma.o...ays/weights.htm
http://www.thearma.o...ssays/2HGS.html

Unfortunately for your argument, historical swords also aren't nearly as big as the swords in DA2.

Look at Carver's sword to start the game.  Work out how heavy that would be - just the steel in the blade.

DAO mauls had heads that would have weighed as much as 40 kg.  They should be slow.

#77
Reaver Hawke

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The Woldan wrote...

Have you ever wielded a 7 pound sword?

Yes I have. Several times, I own several swords.




Have you fought for more than 20 minutes wielding such a weapon?

About 15 Minutes




Have you done this while wearing a heavy armor?

Chainmail. Medium armor.




are you also skilled warrior like Hawke?

I'm not a ''warrior'', but I can bench press 300lbs and I negative-curl 90 lbs 8 times / arm. What I'm trying to say is, I think I'm physically able to wield heavy blades very effectively.
And I can wield a really big 10lbs two handed greatsword with only half the speed Lady Hawke wields it  in DAII.

*edit* screwed up spelling


I can bench press 160 lbs and i never work out and i'm 16.
i'm just fat.

#78
JamesX

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The replica sword of the warden on Epicweapons says it is 17 pounds...

http://www.epicweapo...&cat=251&page=1

Details
SKU:  EW-1007
Weight:  17.00 lbs

Modifié par JamesX, 24 février 2011 - 07:05 .


#79
Jet 300

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That reminds me I need to go lift tomorrow...
You know only because I need to be able to fight off some monsters with that sword I don't own.

Modifié par Jet 300, 24 février 2011 - 07:17 .


#80
JamesX

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>.> and some of them are $10,000 antique Katanas ... with corresponding Shodan rank to match.



Not me though.

#81
Greed1914

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Mutantsquirrel wrote...

SnakeHelah wrote...

How is anything realistic in the game? Please tell me where to find those pesky darkspawn in rl?
I mean honestly, damn it's a fantasy rpg. Everyting doesn't need to be realistic.


Moondoggie wrote...

I love how the word realism when describing what they want in a fantasy game with monsters and dragons and stuff. I think the realism went out the window right around when the blight showed up XD


QFT

I just cannot comprehend seeing complaints about realism for a game involving mages.


I've had the exact same reaction.  I don't get the call for "realism" as some people apply the word to these games.  For instance, I've read many complaints about armor being too light, but when someone can take a drink or have a stick pointed at them and instantly be all better, I don't see why that is a huge issue.  Honestly, when the word Dragon is in the title, I think it warrants plenty of slack.  It certainly makes it easier to enjoy.

#82
Braag

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Also the fireball spell is just way too fast, normally when people shoot fireballs IRL it takes them a moment or two to conjure it up but in DA2 it's just "poof" and fireball is ready.



Where's the realism BioWare? Huh!?

#83
Jet 300

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It's not unreasonable even in a fantasy game to ask for basic physics non?

Modifié par Jet 300, 24 février 2011 - 07:31 .


#84
Red Templar

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If you choose to believe that "fantasy" and "realism" are fundamentally opposed, then Hawke may as well be wearing an orange jumpsuit and frying the Qunari armies with eye lazors and beating Archdemons to death with a huge carrot.

"Fantasy" doesn't mean "anything goes". Fantasy means replacing the norms and rules of our world with the norms and rules of the setting. If the rules and norms of the setting seem inconsistent, that is immersion breaking. DA:O introduced us to the world, and to the rules and norms of Thedas. It was a gritty, "high realism" fantasy setting where combat was slow, gory business and - even though we still performed in a way that a real life medieval knight wouldn't be able to pull of - this "realism" made a person feel like he was a real, flesh and blood person in Thedas.

DA:2 (which seems great, my only concerns with the game are aesthetic, and I can live with that) is a completely different beast. Right away, we're swinging swords around swoosh swoosh pew pew like the frenzied blur of hand to hand to combat in DBZ. Doing over the top of stuff isn't the problem, because over the top stuff can be executed in an aesthetically pleasing way that doesn't feel like frames have been cut or make you expect onomatopoeia to appear on screen in big red letters. I would like to be able to appreciate the aesthetics of my warrior's performance, and being able to see the full range of motion and effect in more than just a blink of an eye would go a long way to my enjoyment of the game.

And as much as "immersion" is buzzword for controversy on the forums lately... it matters, at least a little bit. When you know that people can't teleport in Thedas, for example, and you see a rogue teleport behind a guy in a puff of smoke, that is a moment you are drawn out of what you are doing and have to say to yourself "No, I shouldn't pay too much heed to what I'm doing, it is just game mechanics". And the more you to do that and disregard things as game mechanics, the more you are forced to think about what you are doing as a game, instead of as a world or a story. And while I'm sure that kind of loss of immersion isn't even going to be noticed or lamented by most of the playerbase, it is a significant factor in how some folks enjoy the game.

TL;DR: people who would like realism in their fantasy RPG aren't just deluded dumbasses who don't understand their genre. All these "LOL, realism? in a game?? O'rly?!" answers are cute and all, but they miss the point by a huge margin.

Modifié par Red Templar, 24 février 2011 - 08:54 .


#85
Lotion Soronarr

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Stiler wrote...

I see a lot of people here, and other forums complaining about the pace of combat and how people are throwing around quote, "20 pound swords" at a faster pace.  While I can agree about all the leaping looks a bit strange, but the actual motion/speed of movement isn't terrible, especially compared to the "slow" two handed swords of DA1 that looked really out of place.

Swords in themselves aren't that heavy, historically most swords were around three  pounds, the even bigger two handers could easily be under 5 pounds to around 7 pounds. Any sword that is ten, let alone twenty+ pounds is simply not viable for combat.

http://www.thearma.o...ays/weights.htm
http://www.thearma.o...ssays/2HGS.html



DA:O two-handers are too slow.
DA2 ones are too fast.

two-handers aren't really that heavy, but tehy arne't exactly feathers either. Swinign that mass around isn't easy. It get ever more difficult with two-handed axes or hammers - those things have the center of mass at the top, giving it a greater impact, but that comes at a hefy price. Recovery from a swing, speed and fine control are all sacrificed for murderous hitting power.

#86
Sierra Crysis

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Realism's nice and all, but you gotta take gameplay mechanics with a grain of salt. How many times have you seen someone dying in a cinematic and thought: Hey! Take a health potion, I have 500! Also, you'll see your character have a hard time with 4 guys when you just got done taking down a whole army.



The simple answer is that, the gameplay is optimized for our enjoyment. If you want to see the realism in the game, look at the cinematics/cutscenes, and you'll see the people acting more like human beings.



As a side note, one could always argue that the metals of the world weigh less, or that simply everyone is a little more strong than in actuality... Any number of things.

#87
Lotion Soronarr

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C9316 wrote...

Funny how people complain about this and not the rain of arrows attack....


It is garbage.
Happy now?

#88
Lotion Soronarr

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Hellosanta wrote...

Kinthalis ThornBlade wrote...

It's the size and blade geometry that is the problem. They look so huge and heavy that the animations don't fit them well.

Of course, most people, specially on these boards, know that actual realistic, historical swords weren't that big (aside from some ceremonial, or very specialized examples - and whose blade geometry and weight would have been different anyway) and weren't heavy.

I would have loved to see more realistic and visceral combat along with more realistic weapons. I don't know why people think these things are incompatible with fun.

actually the 2H sword you got in the demo wasn't much bigger than real greatsword. For sure, it had wider blade and longer handle, but there wasn't much of exeggeration. Thus, I assume the 2H sword in DA2 to be around 10 lbs. It's pretty heavy for nomal guy/girl, but I doubt it would be same for a skilled warrior like Hawke.
And ... I'll basically say same thing to you. why the realism should be there for fun? It seemd like most people who were ranting for realism in combat thought like "No fun at all if the combat is not realistic."


DA:O and DA2 are much bigger than real swords.
I'd estimate it's AT LEAST twice as heavy as a normal two-hander.

And I retort to yourassertion with this - "No fun at all if combat is realistic?"

#89
ManiacalEvil

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

C9316 wrote...

Funny how people complain about this and not the rain of arrows attack....


It is garbage.
Happy now?

I find it awesomely cool.

And I very much enjoy how fast 2handed attacks are now. It looks cools plus is works really well. And I don't care if it is impossible in real life or how much they weigh. Just don't care.

#90
errant_knight

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It doesn't matter how heavy they are, because things just don't accerlerate and stop that quickly. Not with human level strength and coordination. I'm equally appalled by the over the top effects in the other classes and talents, not to worry. ;)

Tremor annoys me beyond belief. Yeah. Stick a sword in the ground and cause an earthquake.... Believable!! These things are immersion breaking to me and make it very hard to believe that these are real people in any real danger. It's just a cartoon.

Modifié par errant_knight, 24 février 2011 - 09:18 .


#91
Shinimas

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Kinthalis ThornBlade wrote...


Of course, most people, specially on these boards, know that actual realistic, historical swords weren't that big (aside from some ceremonial, or very specialized examples - and whose blade geometry and weight would have been different anyway) and weren't heavy.


You'd be surprised...

It doesn't matter how heavy they are, because things just don't
accerlerate and stop that quickly. Not with human level strength and
coordination.


Well, depends on things you swing, I guess.

Here is what we see in DA2, basically...

http://www.youtube.c...qArlmpk#t=0m27s

And that's not even close to top speed the sword can be wielded.

Modifié par Shinimas, 24 février 2011 - 09:25 .


#92
Dsentinel

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As a mage IRL I honestly can't take the lack of realism from in-game spellcasters. First off I never twirl my staff (only when I'm by myself lawl) while casting a fireball, mainly because it is an inefficient use of time. Also, my palms get sweaty working with fire magic and therefore increase the chance that I will drop it.



If this isn't fixed immediately I will cancel my pre-order.



P.s I waited and it's still in the demo. PRE-ORDER CANCELLED. Take that Bioware!

#93
17thknight

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Kinthalis ThornBlade wrote...

I would have loved to see more realistic and visceral combat along with more realistic weapons. I don't know why people think these things are incompatible with fun.



They aren't, see: Demon's Souls.

Not only did it capitalize on the actual heaviness of being fully clad in 50lbs of armor and 20lbs of weaopnry, it made it really enjoyable to try and tactically face enemies in real time.

It also seriously makes you consider what you outfit yourself with. Yeah, that sword's pretty powerful, but what a **** to swing it! Much more visceral Much more tense.

#94
Aradace

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Shepard Lives wrote...

Now people are going to begin complaining that it's too realistic.


Exactly lol.  No matter what they do, someone, somewhere, is going to ****** and moan about the combat.  I, for one, think that the DA2 combat system is 1000% better than in origins.  Im especially loving how mages are now.  Im honestly not sure now whether my first toon is going to be a mage or my traditional warrior lol.

#95
Dsentinel

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In all seriousness if you want a very realistic combat system, you should look into the Mount&Blade series. Great games, with a large modding community to fill your realism expectations. Then we can put aside these realism threads in fantasy games.

#96
Aradace

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errant_knight wrote...

It doesn't matter how heavy they are, because things just don't accerlerate and stop that quickly. Not with human level strength and coordination. I'm equally appalled by the over the top effects in the other classes and talents, not to worry. ;)

Tremor annoys me beyond belief. Yeah. Stick a sword in the ground and cause an earthquake.... Believable!! These things are immersion breaking to me and make it very hard to believe that these are real people in any real danger. It's just a cartoon.


If you want "realism", go play oblivion.  They're not going to overhaul the new system just because you want them to lol.

#97
Aradace

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Jet 300 wrote...

It's not unreasonable even in a fantasy game to ask for basic physics non?


Yes...it is...It's called FANTASY

#98
LilyasAvalon

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When you think about how much upper body strength someone would build over time from handling a sword as well, it does make sense... okay leaping into the air with that giant 2H sword doesn't make sense, but being able to handle that thing so swiftly does.

#99
LilyasAvalon

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Aradace wrote...

Shepard Lives wrote...

Now people are going to begin complaining that it's too realistic.


Exactly lol.  No matter what they do, someone, somewhere, is going to ****** and moan about the combat.  I, for one, think that the DA2 combat system is 1000% better than in origins.  Im especially loving how mages are now.  Im honestly not sure now whether my first toon is going to be a mage or my traditional warrior lol.

Seconded here. Why can't people just be happy that it doesn't take like, a full minute to actually swing the bloody axe?

#100
17thknight

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Aradace wrote...

Jet 300 wrote...

It's not unreasonable even in a fantasy game to ask for basic physics non?


Yes...it is...It's called FANTASY


Some of the best fantasy revolves as much about being convincingly realistic as it does by being fantastical. See: A Song of Fire and Ice  and Demon's Souls.