155 réponses à ce sujet

[ROD525]

Thedas is medievil Krypton,because you would have to be a Superman to swing those big ass swords in such a way.

People keep spouting that its fantasy so who cares,if thats the case then why have rules at all?Mages should be able to get on their staffs and fly then...it's fantasy right?

There is no fluidity to the two handed swings anymore and Aveline twirling her sword after every hit is just silly...what a waste of energy.

[Aradace]

ROD525 wrote...

Thedas is medievil Krypton,because you would have to be a Superman to swing those big ass swords in such a way.
People keep spouting that its fantasy so who cares,if thats the case then why have rules at all?Mages should be able to get on their staffs and fly then...it's fantasy right?
There is no fluidity to the two handed swings anymore and Aveline twirling her sword after every hit is just silly...what a waste of energy.

If they decided to have mages get on their staves and fly ala harry potter, so what? I wouldnt care, it's fantasy lol.  And no, I hate harry potter so Im definately not a fanboy of it.  Obviously BW doesnt agree with you on this aspect otherwise they wouldnt have done it.  It's your opinion of course, and you're entitled to it.  Because, you know what breaks "immersion" for me? Crap like in Origins where you select a target, "walk" over to it, and then, if you arent "quite" in position to strike, "Ice skating" into the proper position.  THAT breaks immersion for me.  So given the choice between some "over the top" action, or the crappy BS system that was Origins, I'll take DA2's new system ANY day of the week.

[Burdokva]

Stiler wrote...

I see a lot of people here, and other forums complaining about the pace of combat and how people are throwing around quote, "20 pound swords" at a faster pace.  While I can agree about all the leaping looks a bit strange, but the actual motion/speed of movement isn't terrible, especially compared to the "slow" two handed swords of DA1 that looked really out of place.

Swords in themselves aren't that heavy, historically most swords were around three  pounds, the even bigger two handers could easily be under 5 pounds to around 7 pounds. Any sword that is ten, let alone twenty+ pounds is simply not viable for combat.

http://www.thearma.o...ays/weights.htm
http://www.thearma.o...ssays/2HGS.html

Historically swords aren't 20cm wide, 2cm thick and longer than a normal sized human being, you know? For their size Origins' speed was spot on.

Now, if you use a realistic mod (Adonnay's weapons, for examples), yes, they're slower. But the animation speed is impossible in Dragon Age II for a human being, let alone with a sword of any kind. It's just stupidly fast.

Combat can be dynamic and fast without being stupid and ridiculous. Dragon Age II's is of the latter type, sadly. 

[Aradace]

Burdokva wrote...

Stiler wrote...

I see a lot of people here, and other forums complaining about the pace of combat and how people are throwing around quote, "20 pound swords" at a faster pace.  While I can agree about all the leaping looks a bit strange, but the actual motion/speed of movement isn't terrible, especially compared to the "slow" two handed swords of DA1 that looked really out of place.

Swords in themselves aren't that heavy, historically most swords were around three  pounds, the even bigger two handers could easily be under 5 pounds to around 7 pounds. Any sword that is ten, let alone twenty+ pounds is simply not viable for combat.

http://www.thearma.o...ays/weights.htm
http://www.thearma.o...ssays/2HGS.html

Historically swords aren't 20cm wide, 2cm thick and longer than a normal sized human being, you know? For their size Origins' speed was spot on.

Now, if you use a realistic mod (Adonnay's weapons, for examples), yes, they're slower. But the animation speed is impossible in Dragon Age II for a human being, let alone with a sword of any kind. It's just stupidly fast.

Combat can be dynamic and fast without being stupid and ridiculous. Dragon Age II's is of the latter type, sadly. 

Then dont play it if you think the combat is stupid.  If your opinion of the combat system is that poor, go back to ice skating in Origins.

[17thknight]

Modifié par 17thknight, 24 février 2011 - 10:34 .

[17thknight]

Aradace wrote...

Then dont play it if you think the combat is stupid.  If your opinion of the combat system is that poor, go back to ice skating in Origins.

Dude, we get it. You're a fanboy, no criticism alllowed within your presence, no sir, we got the point 3 pages ago. You don't need to respond to EVERY SINGLE criticism. You aren't convincing annoying, let it the hell go.

[Aradace]

17thknight wrote...

Aradace wrote...

Then dont play it if you think the combat is stupid.  If your opinion of the combat system is that poor, go back to ice skating in Origins.

Dude, we get it. You're a fanboy, no criticism alllowed within your presence, no sir, we got the point 3 pages ago. You don't need to respond to EVERY SINGLE criticism. You aren't convincing annoying, let it the hell go.

Then perhaps you should as well .  And no, Im not a fanboy really.  In fact, I was quite the opposite when DA2 was first being developed.  Over time, I grew to actually like the new changes being implemented.  Lastly, Im not trying to convince anyone of anything, Im merely stating a point that you, in particular it seems, fail to see.  So, to re-emphasize, perhaps YOU should "get the hell over it" before telling others to?

[StormbringerGT]

I think finding an animation and a heft that look good and feel good is more important than "realistic" look at any Hollywood movie or reality show. Realistic takes a back seat there for entertainment and what the common folk find acceptable. We all know (most of us) that Space is silent. The vacuum and all, but boy are space battles loud in star wars. You didn't see some scientist stand up or proclaim that it isnt real and how outraged he was at space being portrayed as such. At least I hope you didnt have one during your movie (although with the new ones we had people standing up shouting different stuff but thats a topic for later).



I don't want realistic in my fantasy. I want acceptable, fun entertaining. Heck I have yet to see a WWII movie that realistic yet. Just what we perceive as "realistic".

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ziggeh wrote...

Red Templar wrote...

And as much as "immersion" is buzzword for controversy on the forums lately...

I'm a little glad to hear that there is a perception that immersion as an argument is frowned upon here, I had thought it was just myself furrowing my virtual brow in it's direction. Or rather it's usage. The reason I do so is misuse of the term, which is generally to attempt to support an opinion, to suggest that there is some objective basis for it, therefor increasing it's value.

To avoid a small essay/rant on the topic, I'll just say that while realism can be important to immersion, consistency is more so. If it were just our hero rocking a buster sword there would be quite a problem, but as all weapons (beginning with daggers, which might be the reason for the overall expansion) are consistently large, it only presents a problem under certain circumstances. Like a previously established dislike for oversized weapons.

No. Immersion has an objective basis.  Realistic stuff is by defaul immersive, for example.

And while some poeple can immerse themselves in unrealistic worlds, that sez more about their exceptionally high Suspension of Disbelief treshold than anything else.
In other words, sjut because some peopel can immerse themselves in almot anything, doesn't mean that such things as immersive elements don't exist

[Lotion Soronarr]

soteria wrote...

One good reason for over sized weapons I haven't seen mentioned yet: realistic weapons would be a lot harder to see. I'd rather have unrealistic weapons I can easily see moving than realistic ones that are hardly noticeable. Also...

I never had problems seeing normal-sized weapons. The "visibility" argument is total BS.

DA:O mods that change models prove this. Heck, every game with normal-sized weapons proves it.

[StormbringerGT]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

Red Templar wrote...

And as much as "immersion" is buzzword for controversy on the forums lately...

I'm a little glad to hear that there is a perception that immersion as an argument is frowned upon here, I had thought it was just myself furrowing my virtual brow in it's direction. Or rather it's usage. The reason I do so is misuse of the term, which is generally to attempt to support an opinion, to suggest that there is some objective basis for it, therefor increasing it's value.

To avoid a small essay/rant on the topic, I'll just say that while realism can be important to immersion, consistency is more so. If it were just our hero rocking a buster sword there would be quite a problem, but as all weapons (beginning with daggers, which might be the reason for the overall expansion) are consistently large, it only presents a problem under certain circumstances. Like a previously established dislike for oversized weapons.

No. Immersion has an objective basis.  Realistic stuff is by defaul immersive, for example.

And while some poeple can immerse themselves in unrealistic worlds, that sez more about their exceptionally high Suspension of Disbelief treshold than anything else.
In other words, sjut because some peopel can immerse themselves in almot anything, doesn't mean that such things as immersive elements don't exist

What?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Aradace wrote...

Burdokva wrote...
Combat can be dynamic and fast without being stupid and ridiculous. Dragon Age II's is of the latter type, sadly. 

Then dont play it if you think the combat is stupid.  If your opinion of the combat system is that poor, go back to ice skating in Origins.

What is it with you are Origins? Making a lot of assumptions here.

Why would I we want to go back to Origins? It's system had other flaws. Combat was too slow. DA2 is too fast.

And if I see another stupid "well, if you don't like it, go cry in the corner/play BG/something." I'm gonna start banging my head agaisnt the wall.

[Lotion Soronarr]

StormbringerGT wrote...
What?

Let me try a example.

Bob, Rob and John are 3 people. We stab them with different kinds of needles to judge how painfull the needles are.

As the needles get bigger (let' say size 5), Bob and Rob start complaining that the pain gets too high.
John however, has an exceptionally high pain treshold (or is very numb, so feels little pain), and he doesn't get uncomfortable nearly as fast. He can take size 10 needles easily.

If John then sez that size 5 needles aren't painfull, he isn't entirely correct. They are painfull - he is just an exception. Same thing here.

Big, super-fast swords are hurting supension of disbelief. Some people jsut have a exceptionally high treshold.

[StormbringerGT]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

StormbringerGT wrote...
What?

Let me try a example.

Bob, Rob and John are 3 people. We stab them with different kinds of needles to judge how painfull the needles are.

As the needles get bigger (let' say size 5), Bob and Rob start complaining that the pain gets too high.
John however, has an exceptionally high pain treshold (or is very numb, so feels little pain), and he doesn't get uncomfortable nearly as fast. He can take size 10 needles easily.

If John then sez that size 5 needles aren't painfull, he isn't entirely correct. They are painfull - he is just an exception. Same thing here.

Big, super-fast swords are hurting supension of disbelief. Some people jsut have a exceptionally high treshold.

So your point is. My factor for immersion is different than your factor for immersion. Neither are wrong they are both just opinions? Good.

Because I don't have a problem with the way Two-Handed Swords are handled in Dragon Age 2.

Modifié par StormbringerGT, 24 février 2011 - 12:12 .

[AnimaTempli101]

Has it occured to anyone that, not only is this fantasy, it is fantasy being fantasized? Varric is narrating all we see remember, whilst he may not be outright lying like he does in the beginning he might still be embroidering the truth of the matter.

[Lotion Soronarr]

StormbringerGT wrote...
So your point it. My factor for immersion is different than your factor for immersion. Neither are wrong they are both just opinions? Good.

Because I don't have a problem with the way Two-Handed Swords are handled in Dragon Age 2.

My point is - the problem exists. You are just not affected by it, and therefore think there is none.

[StormbringerGT]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

StormbringerGT wrote...
So your point it. My factor for immersion is different than your factor for immersion. Neither are wrong they are both just opinions? Good.

Because I don't have a problem with the way Two-Handed Swords are handled in Dragon Age 2.

My point is - the problem exists. You are just not affected by it, and therefore think there is none.

No the problem exists for you. Not me.

Using your example. Seeing as how pain is subjective. If some guy is stabbed and says he feels no pain it might be because his threshold is different and he actually feels no pain. While some one else might feel excruciating pain. However your example is a poor example for a video game based problem especially since pain is less of an opinion and your bodies reaction to tell you something is wrong.

It does not bother me the way Two Handed Swords are handled in Dragon Age 2. Its not wrong. Its my opinion. It doesn't break immersion for me, since I don't think I've been fully immersed by a game yet. Drawn in yes, forget I was playing a game? No.

Your opinion isn't wrong as well, its your opinion.

Modifié par StormbringerGT, 24 février 2011 - 12:12 .

[Piecake]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

StormbringerGT wrote...
So your point it. My factor for immersion is different than your factor for immersion. Neither are wrong they are both just opinions? Good.

Because I don't have a problem with the way Two-Handed Swords are handled in Dragon Age 2.

My point is - the problem exists. You are just not affected by it, and therefore think there is none.

You can say that about anything.  If melee combat was perfectly 'realistic' I would definitely notice that mage flinging fireballs accross the battlefield more.  The biggest immersion killer for me with 'realistic' combat is that we are supposed to believe that 4 'realistic' people killed thousands of enemies, some of them being incredibly powerful monsters, while always being constantly outnumbered when they came up against those hordes.  Personally, I find that ridiculous. 

[Gabey5]

this is a game.

[StormbringerGT]

Gabey5 wrote...

this is a game.

To me and you. To some. Its something more.

[StormbringerGT]

If we want to break immersion and realism here swinging a sword for more than 10 minutes is a super human feat as is you and your enemies surviving more than a blow or two. However they are not going for that in this game. Thus the reason why I think the way the 2 handed swords are handled is okay with me.

[Maelora]

It's not simply that it's fast, it's that its weightless anime nonsense. Isabela jumping thirty feet from a standing start. Warrior Hawke jumping ten feet in the air wearing full plate. Rogue animations looking like something from Power Rangers, like a rubber ball on steroids.



There should be a middle road between 'stark realism' and 'ludicrous manga combat', and for me, DA2 doesn't have it. Not every game should feel like Final Fantasy.

[StormbringerGT]

Maelora wrote...

It's not simply that it's fast, it's that its weightless anime nonsense. Isabela jumping thirty feet from a standing start. Warrior Hawke jumping ten feet in the air wearing full plate. Rogue animations looking like something from Power Rangers, like a rubber ball on steroids.

There should be a middle road between 'stark realism' and 'ludicrous manga combat', and for me, DA2 doesn't have it. Not every game should feel like Final Fantasy.

Its a good thing this game doesnt feel like Final Fantasy to me then. Sounds like you are not going to enjoy this game or maybe the combat very much. I will.

And no there does not have to be a middle road. There can. But there doesnt HAVE to be. Some people enjoy stark realism and some people enjoy luicrous manga combat you are somwhere in between and I am somwhere else inbetween it seems, because this combat does not feel like either of those to me.

Modifié par StormbringerGT, 24 février 2011 - 12:29 .

[Grunk]

17thknight wrote...

Aradace wrote...

Jet 300 wrote...

It's not unreasonable even in a fantasy game to ask for basic physics non?

Yes...it is...It's called FANTASY

Some of the best fantasy revolves as much about being convincingly realistic as it does by being fantastical. See: A Song of Fire and Ice  and Demon's Souls.

That's how it works in those fantasy worlds, not this one. Just because it's good for A Song of Ice and Fire doesn't mean it's good for DA, and Demon's Souls is an entirely different beast. Also, I'd say for Demon's Souls to be any kind of realistic, it should be impossible for me to be slain when I'm a ghost unless it's by some kind of magical means, not a dude shanking me with a longsword or a dragon breathing fire on me.

The way things work in this fantasy world has no bearing on other fantasy worlds, and vice-versa. I don't really care about people liking or disliking it because it seems like people will stretch the pettiest of minutiae in order to complain (which is really the case for any fandom, not just this one, good God just look at Shoryuken.com), but I don't like this argument put forth.

Then again, I kinda dislike all the arguments because ultimately, I just don't value realism that much. If it works for the gameplay and is entertaining, I'm happy. So I liked shooting people in the head with my bow in Demon's Souls and I'll enjoy exploding Darkspawn with a snicker-snap of my vorpal blade in DA2.

[ThomasBlaine]

AnimaTempli101 wrote...

Has it occured to anyone that, not only is this fantasy, it is fantasy being fantasized? Varric is narrating all we see remember, whilst he may not be outright lying like he does in the beginning he might still be embroidering the truth of the matter.

Excellent thought, but nontheless it can easily ruin enjoyment of the game entirely for some, which we hopefully all agree is counter-productive at best, on both sides of the moneystand..
I, for one, actually caught myself thinking combat in the demo was a drag, and kept mashing buttons for no other reason than to end it faster so I could get back to the game. 
...In an ACTION/rpg!?
I honestly hope I was the only one, or that I was just tired or annoyed.