156 réponses à ce sujet

[hamlin69]

Playing on a 42 inch plasma. Text is fine.

[Demon Velsper]

hamlin69 wrote...

Playing on a 42 inch plasma. Text is fine.

So why are you even posting in here? I mean thanks for the bump and everything but what's the point? Schadenfreude?

[hamlin69]

To NinjaMarion:

Your 65% to 35% statistics are not really reliable due to factors such as age, location, needs etc.

Remember that of those 65% that own HDTV's, 90% of the gaming community could be in that 65%. These are things we need to consider. Obviously we do not know that but its something to think about rather than just focus on 65% own 1 hdtv and 35% don't. Maybe 5% of the 35% play games?

Modifié par hamlin69, 01 mars 2011 - 04:07 .

[SorenTrigg]

Posted in the other thread, but might as well post here too.
Owner of an SDTV. Could read the text in Origins perfectly fine, but here it is completely unreadable. The dialogue choices I can kind of make out, but all description text and so forth is completely unreadable. It makes me sad, because I have been really looking forward to this.

[NinjaMarion]

Tabak wrote...

Well I find it too small on PC too, and it
annoys me to have to change the font size just for this game. However,
at least PC gamers CAN change the resolution and get larger text.

All
this arguing about HDTV penetration amuses me. Hello... the world
doesn't start and end with the US! The US has very high adoption of HDTV
compared to the rest of the world. Manufacturers are still producing
CRT TV's for some countries. I'm not suggesting DA2 should be able to be
played on CRT TV's but if the minimum requirement for being able to
read text is an HDTV this is likely to be problematic for a very large
number of people across Europe and Asia/Pacific. 

Yeah. I never was attempting to convey anything of the sort, but if I could point out that the US' adoption rate doesn't make it anywhere near the standard the "Get an HDTV" people think, then clearly that'd be even more the case in other nations that wouldn't have HD use as widespread as the US.

hamlin69 wrote...

To NinjaMarion:

Your 65% to 35% statistics are not really reliable due to factors such as age, location, needs etc.

Remember that of those 65% that own HDTV's, 90% of the gaming community could be in that 65%. These are things we need to consider. Obviously we do not know that but its something to think about rather than just focus on 65% own 1 hdtv and 35% don't. Maybe 5% of the 35% play games?

It's irrelevant. The whole purpose of bringing that up is to address the "OMG! HDTVs are everywhere! Almost everyone has them! Stop living in the past" people and show that it's not nearly as widespread and standard as the "**** you, you shouldn't get to read the text for living in the stone age and having an SDTV" crowd act like it is.
More to the point, these numbers are pretty hard to find, and rather than just baselessly throw out things like "Everyone I know has an HDTV" or "HDTVs are the standard" with no numbers to back them up, I went with the best figures I could.

That said, I've managed to find survey results from October of last year that actually do touch on the HD ownership rates of the 735 gamers surveyed. Funnily enough, their HD vs. non-HD ownership rate is... 34%! Almost exactly in line with the numbers from my previously mentioned source.

[wayne.lennon]

This could easily be resolved. The argument for larger subtitles for visually impaired users is a legitimate one that Bioware shouldn't ignore. To fix this, Bioware simply needs to add to the options menu "Subtitles: Off On Large". Visually/hearing impaired people could turn on "Large", and all would be well with the world.

On the other hand, the portion of the gaming population who are still playing on SD/EDTVs will find their console-gaming options increasingly limited, as HDTV is already the current standard. For those gamers not able/willing to invest in an HDTV or HD display, PC gaming is always an option.

[Mustang678]

I'd like it to be an option on SDTVs because my gaming location uses an SDTV. I moved my Xbox away from the HDTV simply because I play Rock Band 3 a lot and the game has calibration issues on anything but SD, meaning the notes aren't on sync, and I find editing the options for it too tedious and haven't been able to get it within acceptable limits

[Lazy Murph]

NinjaMarion wrote...
You say that's not the case, but when every one of your points implies that we should expect this or deserve it for not having an HDTV, you're pretty much saying it's our fault, rather than BioWare's for designing text THAT ALSO ISN'T BIG ENOUGH ON SOME HDTVS!

I have played the demo on my 42" Plasma in my living room and the text is fine. I have also played the demo in my bedroom on a 27" LCD and again, it's fine. If it isn't quite readable on an SDTV then that sucks. But I've never said it's your fault that you can't read it have I?
But DA2 isn't the only game that suffers from it. I remember seeing the first Assassin's Creed on my brother-in-laws SDTV a few years ago. He kept asking me what 'Altar' meant on the map...I said that it says 'Altair', you couldn't make out the 'i' in it. Loads of other games have the same problem when viewed on an SDTV...simply because they're designed to be viewed in a HD resolution...as is every game released on the current consoles because, like it or not, they're HD machines.

NinjaMarion wrote...
And you clearly couldn't understand the slight math I worked in there, because I said nothing of the sort about 88% of the US having HDTVs.

I understood it fine mate. You wrote this:

NinjaMarion wrote...
That brings our new MAXIMUM amount of HDTVs to 88%

I wrote this:

Old Fecker wrote...
You've just said yourself that there's probably around 88% of the US that currently have a HDTV

You're working on pure guesswork about your precious percentages. I said you think there's probably around 88% of the US that currently have a HDTV...how does that mean I 'clearly couldn't understand' you?

NinjaMarion wrote...
And how do you not get the washing machine analogy?

I do...and did when I replied. I just said it was a weird point. If you read it back I actually agreed with you, I wouldn't throw away my washing machine because new ones use less water. If it became an issue then I'd upgrade.

I find it really amusing that you're actually getting worked up about a difference of opinion on a game forum!

The way I see it is there are a few options:

1) BioWare release a text patch for the game that increases the font size. But as the game has already gone gold and started being manufactured & shipped already, this probably won't happen unless there's some massive outcry about it.
2) You save and buy a HDTV.
3) You stick with your SDTV as long as possible (which is fine btw) but suffer with certain games coz of unreadable text, unclear visuals etc.
4) Don't buy the game.

This 'issue' is fairly black and white to me. Either put up with it or upgrade, it does seem a no brainer to me that all games should offer various font sizes, remappable controls etc but it obviously doesn't work that way.
 
I wonder if you had the same issue when cassette's got phased out in favour of CD's / VHS got phased out in favour of DVD?

Technology moves along fast. People either put up with what they've got or they save and upgrade.

Vector C wrote...
The "tiny text serves the majority because HDtvs are the majority" argument makes me laugh so much. Yes, tiny text serves the majority because a percentage of people greater than 50 might be able to read it with little trouble. That majority totally beats the 100% of people that could read it if it was slighter bigger like the very non-obtrusive but readable text in DA:O was. It seems your genius knows just as few bounds as my sarcasm does.

My genius?  At what? Pointing out the obvious that a company is going to go for the lowest possible denominator when choosing font size in a bloody game!?

I'm thoroughly bored of this discussion now. Upgrade to a HDTV and join the masses or put up with the game as it looks on an SDTV and hope that a font size patch gets released at some point....or don't buy it. However, if you have an actual impairment then you have my sympathies that you're unable to read the text - that is a different thing altogether.

[Lazy Murph]

NinjaMarion wrote...
That said, I've managed to find survey results from October of last year that actually do touch on the HD ownership rates of the 735 gamers surveyed. Funnily enough, their HD vs. non-HD ownership rate is... 34%! Almost exactly in line with the numbers from my previously mentioned source.

My god, you love your stats don't you!

735 gamers surveyed in (I'm guessing here, the US?) isn't exactly a realistic slice of the market is it? 735 surveyed in the UK is microscopic. 735 gamers from any country where gaming is fairly widespread is a pretty pathetic survey. Source?

[hamlin69]

NinjaMarion wrote...

Tabak wrote...

Well I find it too small on PC too, and it
annoys me to have to change the font size just for this game. However,
at least PC gamers CAN change the resolution and get larger text.

All
this arguing about HDTV penetration amuses me. Hello... the world
doesn't start and end with the US! The US has very high adoption of HDTV
compared to the rest of the world. Manufacturers are still producing
CRT TV's for some countries. I'm not suggesting DA2 should be able to be
played on CRT TV's but if the minimum requirement for being able to
read text is an HDTV this is likely to be problematic for a very large
number of people across Europe and Asia/Pacific. 

Yeah. I never was attempting to convey anything of the sort, but if I could point out that the US' adoption rate doesn't make it anywhere near the standard the "Get an HDTV" people think, then clearly that'd be even more the case in other nations that wouldn't have HD use as widespread as the US.

hamlin69 wrote...

To NinjaMarion:

Your 65% to 35% statistics are not really reliable due to factors such as age, location, needs etc.

Remember that of those 65% that own HDTV's, 90% of the gaming community could be in that 65%. These are things we need to consider. Obviously we do not know that but its something to think about rather than just focus on 65% own 1 hdtv and 35% don't. Maybe 5% of the 35% play games?

It's irrelevant. The whole purpose of bringing that up is to address the "OMG! HDTVs are everywhere! Almost everyone has them! Stop living in the past" people and show that it's not nearly as widespread and standard as the "**** you, you shouldn't get to read the text for living in the stone age and having an SDTV" crowd act like it is.
More to the point, these numbers are pretty hard to find, and rather than just baselessly throw out things like "Everyone I know has an HDTV" or "HDTVs are the standard" with no numbers to back them up, I went with the best figures I could.

That said, I've managed to find survey results from October of last year that actually do touch on the HD ownership rates of the 735 gamers surveyed. Funnily enough, their HD vs. non-HD ownership rate is... 34%! Almost exactly in line with the numbers from my previously mentioned source.

I surveyed all my friends, they all have hdtv's.

[NinjaMarion]

Old Fecker wrote...

You've just said yourself that there's probably around 88% of the US that currently have a HDTV

You're working on pure guesswork about your precious percentages. I said you think there's probably around 88% of the US that currently have a HDTV...how does that mean I 'clearly couldn't understand' you?

For someone that keeps complaining I'm putting words in your mouth and not properly reading your intent, you seem insistant to claim I'm saying there's probably about 88% HDTVs in the US. I'm not. And my math and theorizing has said nothing of the sort. I've said there's a MAXIMUM of 88%, and then stated why it's not likely to be anywhere close to that! You keep ignoring that. Even with a maximum of 88%, that still leaves an entire 12% outright left out by this, which is an absurdly high number for something so easy to satisfy both segments. Slightly bigger text, as in DA:O, wouldn't cost any sales to the HD users, but would allow that entire MINIMUM 12% to play. And again, and for like the fifth time, I don't think it's anywhere close to that 88 / 12 % figure for reasons I've already stated. You're also taking THAT 88% figure to somehow translate to HDTV use as a whole, which I've repeatedly pointed out isn't the case. THAT figure only represents the homes with at least one HDTV. So even once that finally hits 100%, the actual HD rate will still be less than 100%. It baffles me that you seem to not get this and repeatedly are claiming that the entire country has moved on to 88% HD use.

Old Fecker wrote...

But DA2 isn't the only game that suffers from it. I remember seeing the
first Assassin's Creed on my brother-in-laws SDTV a few years ago. He
kept asking me what 'Altar' meant on the map...I said that it says
'Altair', you couldn't make out the 'i' in it. Loads of other games have
the same problem when viewed on an SDTV...simply because they're
designed to be viewed in a HD resolution...as is every game released on
the current consoles because, like it or not, they're HD machines.

As for DA2 not being the only game that does it, no one claimed it is. It is, however, one of the four worst offenders of the entire XBox 360 library of thousands. FOUR. Four games have had the problem to where they're unplayable. Assassin's Creed? A: Not a text-heavy RPG with stat menus and lore that need to be able to be read. B: It also wasn't this bad. I played Assassin's Creed on a 21 inch SDTV, and had no problem with the text on the level of this. Altar instead of Altair? It's pretty easy to infer what it was considering Altair's only the main character and the icon that label applies to is shaped like his hood / head. You can't infer an entire game and what the damage of talents and benefits of stat points and stats of equipment are. C: You're going with an older game as an example, much like I did with how Dead Rising was unreadable... however, unlike when I brought up Dead Rising, you're also neglecting to mention the sequels. I don't exactly remember the subtitles in the original AC, although I do recall not having issue reading them. I do, however, remember playing through AC: Brotherhood just weeks ago and the subtitles being larger and much, much more readable than DA2. So, even if you were correct (And I'm being entirely hypothetical here), that would then mean that Ubisoft went and improved the text for their later game, much like the case of Dead Rising. As opposed to BioWare, who went from readable text in DA:O to difficult to read text in Mass Effect 2 that was complained about, to even smaller text in the DA2 demo. So not a valid comparison.

Old Fecker wrote...

This 'issue' is fairly black and white to me. Either put up with it or
upgrade, it does seem a no brainer to me that all games should offer
various font sizes, remappable controls etc but it obviously doesn't
work that way.

That's the point. It's not. Not even close. In fact, there's technically not an issue yet. Which is the issue. This isn't, as of yet anyway, a topic *****ing and demanding that BioWare fix this. The whole issue has been that we don't even KNOW if it's like this. We've been met with silence repeatedly. The issue is that BioWare won't tell us if the text is this way in the final or not. If they would just say no, we'd all shut up and be happy and look forward to it. If they said yes, a fair number of us would shut up, cancel our orders (due to it being unplayable on an SD, which is an entirely reasonably reaction), and move on to Skyrim. It's the fact they're not telling us, forcing us to either cancel even though it may be fixed or purchase even though it may not be, that has us all frustrated and worked up.

Old Fecker wrote...

I wonder if you had the same issue when cassette's got phased out in favour of CD's / VHS got phased out in favour of DVD?

It's not the same thing. When CDs came in favor, all the audio tapes you owned still worked. Any NEW tapes that came out that you bought still worked with your cassette player. The only thing was that more and more stuff began only being released CDs while less and less came to tapes. Now with this, despite my 360 works with my SDTV and 99% of the games work, a developer can suddenly decide to needlessly use tiny text (And in this case, it IS too small, as even HD users, on that "standard" of tech that people are saying it's our fault for not having yet, are having trouble reading the text!) and make it not work. There's absolutely no text on the back of the game boxes or mention in previews and specs and whatnot saying "This game only works properly in HD" or something to the effect, like there would be with cassette tapes (by virtue of the fact things that don't work with it, like CDs, don't fit in it and are different products altogether).

Modifié par NinjaMarion, 01 mars 2011 - 06:47 .

[NinjaMarion]

hamlin69 wrote...

NinjaMarion wrote...

hamlin69 wrote...

To NinjaMarion:

Your 65% to 35% statistics are not really reliable due to factors such as age, location, needs etc.

Remember
that of those 65% that own HDTV's, 90% of the gaming community could be
in that 65%. These are things we need to consider. Obviously we do not
know that but its something to think about rather than just focus on 65%
own 1 hdtv and 35% don't. Maybe 5% of the 35% play games?

It's
irrelevant. The whole purpose of bringing that up is to address the
"OMG! HDTVs are everywhere! Almost everyone has them! Stop living in the
past" people and show that it's not nearly as widespread and standard
as the "**** you, you shouldn't get to read the text for living in the
stone age and having an SDTV" crowd act like it is.
More to the
point, these numbers are pretty hard to find, and rather than just
baselessly throw out things like "Everyone I know has an HDTV" or "HDTVs
are the standard" with no numbers to back them up, I went with the best
figures I could.

That said, I've managed to find survey results
from October of last year that actually do touch on the HD ownership
rates of the 735 gamers surveyed. Funnily enough, their HD vs.
non-HD ownership rate is... 34%! Almost exactly in line with the numbers
from my previously mentioned source.

I surveyed all my friends, they all have hdtv's.

Congratulations! You totally understand how using anything remotely resembling real facts versus anecdotal evidence works! Except not!

Old Fecker wrote...

NinjaMarion wrote...
That said, I've managed to find survey results from October of last year that actually do touch on the HD ownership rates of the 735 gamers surveyed. Funnily enough, their HD vs. non-HD ownership rate is... 34%! Almost exactly in line with the numbers from my previously mentioned source.

My god, you love your stats don't you!

735 gamers surveyed in (I'm guessing here, the US?) isn't exactly a realistic slice of the market is it? 735 surveyed in the UK is microscopic. 735 gamers from any country where gaming is fairly widespread is a pretty pathetic survey. Source?

I'm going by what actual hard numbers I can find, rather than just making stuff up and using anecdotal evidence like many have. If you can find me a survey that asked every single gamer about their HD usage, by all means, go for it. 735 isn't a huge sample size, but a random sampling of 735 gamers certainly gives something to go on versus nothing at all.

[Stinkface27]

Great news, guys. I've just asked all my friends if any of them are allergic to peanuts, and none of them are so there are NO PEANUT ALLERGIES anywhere in the world!

[yuncas]

Lo and behold PMs to Devs actually work. Amazing, right?  This is a record of the conversation I had with Chris Priestly today through PM.

**************

Me: Again, I'm sure it's already been seen by you guys but I feel like I should put in at least little more personal effort just to make myself sure. Is the text size in the retail version of DA2 the same as the text size in the demo? Any response would be much appreciated.

Chris Priestly: Sorry for not replying sooner. Yes, the text size is the same in the game as in the demo.

Me: No problem. Thanks for taking the time. Another question if I could? Would it be possible for an option to increase text size to be introduced via a patch after release?

Chris Priestly:Depending on fan feedback, it could happen. It would depend on feedback after launch.

Me: Alright. Thanks for the response

**************

This is legit. Discuss.

[Mythrael]

yuncas wrote...

Lo and behold PMs to Devs actually work. Amazing, right?  This is a record of the conversation I had with Chris Priestly today through PM.

**************

Me: Again, I'm sure it's already been seen by you guys but I feel like I should put in at least little more personal effort just to make myself sure. Is the text size in the retail version of DA2 the same as the text size in the demo? Any response would be much appreciated.

Chris Priestly: Sorry for not replying sooner. Yes, the text size is the same in the game as in the demo.

Me: No problem. Thanks for taking the time. Another question if I could? Would it be possible for an option to increase text size to be introduced via a patch after release?

Chris Priestly:Depending on fan feedback, it could happen. It would depend on feedback after launch.

Me: Alright. Thanks for the response

**************

This is legit. Discuss.

This sucks. Text size should not have been an issue in the first place.

[NinjaMarion]

yuncas wrote...

Lo and behold PMs to Devs actually work. Amazing, right?  This is a record of the conversation I had with Chris Priestly today through PM.

**************

Me: Again, I'm sure it's already been seen by you guys but I feel like I should put in at least little more personal effort just to make myself sure. Is the text size in the retail version of DA2 the same as the text size in the demo? Any response would be much appreciated.

Chris Priestly: Sorry for not replying sooner. Yes, the text size is the same in the game as in the demo.

Me: No problem. Thanks for taking the time. Another question if I could? Would it be possible for an option to increase text size to be introduced via a patch after release?

Chris Priestly:Depending on fan feedback, it could happen. It would depend on feedback after launch.

Me: Alright. Thanks for the response

**************

This is legit. Discuss.

Well that certainly sucks if true. Although the one thing I'd like to know is, how would fan feedback determine if this is fixed after release when it was impossible to fix for ME2?

[yuncas]

NinjaMarion wrote...

Well that certainly sucks if true. Although the one thing I'd like to know is, how would fan feedback determine if this is fixed after release when it was impossible to fix for ME2?

Keep in mind I'm no tech junkie but possibly because DA2 was built differently than ME2.

[SorenTrigg]

Well, I sent a PM to him as well. Got the same thing. After he said if fan feedback deemed it needed, I sent him links to the forum topics on this and basically just implored him to give us *something*. Doubt things will work. Losing hope.

[BSBNess]

Wow some of the comments in this thread amaze me. I found the text kind of small I played the demo on my PS3 and my PS3 is on a SDTV. I usually play on my Mac, (waits for why gaming on a mac sucks arguments and PC rules). I usually game on my PC but my PC died and I haven't had time to build a new one; for many different reason there are a lot of people who can't have a HDTV but they should not be punished in a way because they don't have one. And there have people with HDTV who said they can't read it even with their HDTV. Also this forum is a very small selection of DA 2 players/fans so who knows the people who are thinking this problem is bad for them could be double or triple the number posting here. I shared my 2 cents.

[NinjaMarion]

yuncas wrote...

NinjaMarion wrote...

Well that certainly sucks if true. Although the one thing I'd like to know is, how would fan feedback determine if this is fixed after release when it was impossible to fix for ME2?

Keep in mind I'm no tech junkie but possibly because DA2 was built differently than ME2.

Feasibly, but then opens a whole other can of worms: Ok, so we'll say they designed DA2 in a way that it will be patchable for text fix. With ME2, we were told MS limits patches to 4mb and patching all the text in the game would be impossible under that restriction, blah, blah, blah. So, let's say they did change its implementation in DA2 to be patchable somehow. That would mean that they foresaw this being an issue (Which yes, they really should have due to the ME2 feedback), but then decided rather than just to make it work right from get-go, they would change the design entirely to allow them to EVENTUALLY fix it if the need arose. Now, not only would that probably entail more work than just starting with a slightly larger font size, it's a pretty insane thing to do either way. It just seems suspect and that we're getting a "we can fix it if the fans demand it" just to shut us up about it with no actual plans to ever do so.

[yuncas]

NinjaMarion wrote...

yuncas wrote...

NinjaMarion wrote...

Well that certainly sucks if true. Although the one thing I'd like to know is, how would fan feedback determine if this is fixed after release when it was impossible to fix for ME2?

Keep in mind I'm no tech junkie but possibly because DA2 was built differently than ME2.

Feasibly, but then opens a whole other can of worms: Ok, so we'll say they designed DA2 in a way that it will be patchable for text fix. With ME2, we were told MS limits patches to 4mb and patching all the text in the game would be impossible under that restriction, blah, blah, blah. So, let's say they did change its implementation in DA2 to be patchable somehow. That would mean that they foresaw this being an issue (Which yes, they really should have due to the ME2 feedback), but then decided rather than just to make it work right from get-go, they would change the design entirely to allow them to EVENTUALLY fix it if the need arose. Now, not only would that probably entail more work than just starting with a slightly larger font size, it's a pretty insane thing to do either way. It just seems suspect and that we're getting a "we can fix it if the fans demand it" just to shut us up about it with no actual plans to ever do so.

Come on now. There's no need to start going down the lazy/conspiracy path of thinking. 
 

[Lazy Murph]

NinjaMarion wrote...
What you said

I keep quoting you because I find it amusing that you're getting worked up about such a small issue as font size. And you don't let me down with your replies, lol.  

I'll say what I said before, either upgrade your telly or put up with the font size and hope they release a patch for it. Or don't buy the game. Unless a sizeable amount of people complain about this they're not going to waste time and resources in redoing the UI when they could be doing DLC.

When my missus' 80 year old grandad owns a 32" Plasma I think that pretty much says that HDTV's are very widespread.

Bye.

[hamlin69]

Cant see? Buy a new TV.

Modifié par hamlin69, 01 mars 2011 - 08:39 .

[yuncas]

Is there really a need to post if all you have to offer is a smartass quip?

[uzivatel]

Re-downloading the demo just to see how bad it is in PAL resolution.

As for the HDTV market penetration - I dont own HDTV, yet I get to enjoy my console games in glorious HD thanks to my 1680 x 1050 LCD monitor...

edit: Its playable, but most of the text is really, REALLY hard to read. Its games like this that make me glad I upgraded my old TV.

Modifié par uzivatel, 01 mars 2011 - 10:04 .