156 réponses à ce sujet

[uzivatel]

NinjaMarion wrote...

No. A text-heavy RPG with menus that require reading to level up, compare and equip items, etc. where the text is unreadable does not "work". Sure, it boots up, but it's unplayable. It's nearly impossible to coherently go through an entire game like that while actually understanding what you're doing and making proper choices. Considering games are made to be played, and not just intended to turn on and sit there, that effectively makes this, as one of only about four Xbox 360 games to be this way, not working. Unplayable. Nonfunctioning. It is effectively a crappy $60 paperweight for anyone with an SDTV that buys it, and until yesterday, an entire week after the demo and barely a week before it comes out, we didn't even have confirmation of that fact to know that we DO have to cancel preorders so we don't waste our money.

The text is readable, its just much more pain than it should be.

Excellent logical fallicy, bro! People with no TV aren't going to be gaming. People with an SDTV, that works for 99.9% of the entire XBox 360 library, kinda have an expectation of being able to play an Xbox 360 game.

There are many other games with similar SDTV issues ... either admit DA2 works or stop pulling numbers.

Modifié par uzivatel, 02 mars 2011 - 11:33 .

[Vector C]

I still brush off the HD vs SD arguments because all of that is irrelevant. As pointed out, there are HD users who find the text too small. My best friend played the demo recently on his 32" HDtv and he found the text uncomfortable as well. My tv is standard but thankfully large enough that I have no problem whatsoever playing Dead Rising or Mass Effect 2. However DA2's text is so small the only text I consistently was able to read properly was the speech options. Inventory or enemy names on the other hand require educated guesses. Now since the awkward Widescreen fix seems to help ever so slightly so I can read it at least a little more consistently (but by no means am I saying this makes the game comfortable), I will still be picking up my SE on launch day. Nonetheless, I do hope that Bioware sees the mass amounts of fan outcry about this issue and provides a fix, whether it be a toggle or just a general increase in size (and hopefully a sans-serif font since the serif certainly compounds the problem). I will definitely not be picking up an HDtv for this game because I, like many others, have much bigger priorities for my expenses than spending hundreds to replace a perfectly good television.

And as always, the SD/HD warring arguments are simply stupid for the sheer fact that smaller text makes things uncomfortable or unplayable to SD and some HD users while even a slightly larger text would satisfy both parties perfectly. No reason to pick either side and be in the minority. As I said before, satisfying both parties is the obviously better choice since 100% > any percentage of HD owners you could throw at me.

[NinjaMarion]

uzivatel wrote...

NinjaMarion wrote...

No. A text-heavy RPG with menus that require reading to level up, compare and equip items, etc. where the text is unreadable does not "work". Sure, it boots up, but it's unplayable. It's nearly impossible to coherently go through an entire game like that while actually understanding what you're doing and making proper choices. Considering games are made to be played, and not just intended to turn on and sit there, that effectively makes this, as one of only about four Xbox 360 games to be this way, not working. Unplayable. Nonfunctioning. It is effectively a crappy $60 paperweight for anyone with an SDTV that buys it, and until yesterday, an entire week after the demo and barely a week before it comes out, we didn't even have confirmation of that fact to know that we DO have to cancel preorders so we don't waste our money.

The text is readable, its just much more pain than it should be.

Excellent logical fallicy, bro! People with no TV aren't going to be gaming. People with an SDTV, that works for 99.9% of the entire XBox 360 library, kinda have an expectation of being able to play an Xbox 360 game.

There are many other games with similar SDTV issues ... either admit DA2 works or stop pulling numbers.

Uh. No. It really isn't. I honestly had a few moments where it was 100% impossible to make out what the text said. Most of it was readable with a crapload of effort, but there were bits that just plain could NOT be read. And no. There's 4. Four games where it's this bad and completely unreadable. One was patched and another went with readable, larger text for its sequel FOUR YEARS LATER (A mere six months or so ago). The other two are from BioWare. Not many games with issues this bad. Four.

[Nopheros]

NinjaMarion wrote...

uzivatel wrote...

NinjaMarion wrote...

No. A text-heavy RPG with menus that require reading to level up, compare and equip items, etc. where the text is unreadable does not "work". Sure, it boots up, but it's unplayable. It's nearly impossible to coherently go through an entire game like that while actually understanding what you're doing and making proper choices. Considering games are made to be played, and not just intended to turn on and sit there, that effectively makes this, as one of only about four Xbox 360 games to be this way, not working. Unplayable. Nonfunctioning. It is effectively a crappy $60 paperweight for anyone with an SDTV that buys it, and until yesterday, an entire week after the demo and barely a week before it comes out, we didn't even have confirmation of that fact to know that we DO have to cancel preorders so we don't waste our money.

The text is readable, its just much more pain than it should be.

Excellent logical fallicy, bro! People with no TV aren't going to be gaming. People with an SDTV, that works for 99.9% of the entire XBox 360 library, kinda have an expectation of being able to play an Xbox 360 game.

There are many other games with similar SDTV issues ... either admit DA2 works or stop pulling numbers.

Uh. No. It really isn't. I honestly had a few moments where it was 100% impossible to make out what the text said. Most of it was readable with a crapload of effort, but there were bits that just plain could NOT be read. And no. There's 4. Four games where it's this bad and completely unreadable. One was patched and another went with readable, larger text for its sequel FOUR YEARS LATER (A mere six months or so ago). The other two are from BioWare. Not many games with issues this bad. Four.

I don't know what problem you're having. 100% impossible to read? It's easy to read on my Samsung - 65". Just buy an HDTV, man. 

[OpDDay2001]

Nopheros wrote...
I don't know what problem you're having. 100% impossible to read? It's easy to read on my Samsung - 65". Just buy an HDTV, man. 

You're ignorant. I'm not even going to bother reporting this blatant ignorance and trolling anymore. Nothing is done about it.

Modifié par OpDDay2001, 03 mars 2011 - 06:34 .

[Lazy Murph]

NinjaMarion wrote...
Uh. No. It really isn't. I honestly had a few moments where it was 100% impossible to make out what the text said. Most of it was readable with a crapload of effort, but there were bits that just plain could NOT be read. And no. There's 4. Four games where it's this bad and completely unreadable. One was patched and another went with readable, larger text for its sequel FOUR YEARS LATER (A mere six months or so ago). The other two are from BioWare. Not many games with issues this bad. Four.

The thing is, your 'four games' argument is inaccurate. Most games have blurry text when viewed in SD because the game is optimised for a much higher resolution, in probably 99% of cases over the last few years, 720p is the lowest supported resolution. It's worse in your average RPG as there's more text than say, in a FPS.

Also, througout this thread you've constantly convieniently ignored points that you have no answer for or can't refute.

I put this back on page 5 of this thread but you haven't adressed it. As far as I'm concerned, this backs up the fact that SD resolutions aren't officially supported:

Old Fecker wrote...
If you were going to buy the game on PC but your setup only just reached the published minimum requirements (therefore, the game wouldn't run as intended), would you then come to this forum and start a thread entitled: Players with older PCs marginalized again? I don't think you would. You'd either not buy the game as your setup won't run it properly or you'd upgrade your rig, right?

When you turn a 360 game box over, at the bottom there are boxes which have info inside them such as how many players the game supports, how much space a game save takes, the supported screen resolutions, any Live-enabled features etc.

These are the Xbox 360 equivalents of PC system requirements. In the small print below all that is a sentence that includes the words: system requirements.

You are ignoring the games requirements to be utilized properly and then spouting on here that you're basically being victimised!

DAO box:


As you can see in the image above there is nowhere on the box that says SDTV (resolution) that's because the game doesn't officially support SD resolutions. Just because the 360 actually displays in SD doesn't mean it's designed to do so - it's a HD console and is marketed as such.

-EDIT-

People who still own SDTVs are lucky that the 360/PS3 actually display on them at all. They work on an SD display because when they first came out HDTV penetration wasn't as much as it is today so they had to function through SCART. This is also the reason why games released for the first few years (on 360) had 480i as the lowest supported resolution as TVs that supported DV-NTSC (480i) were, apparently, pretty common in the US in 2005 as they started being sold in the early 2000's. The fact that the lowest supported resolution on game boxes for the last few years is now 720p clearly states that Microsoft sees modern HDTV penetration rates are significant enough to start phasing out older, lower resolutions. And if they're phasing out official 480i resolutions then what does that say about PAL/NTSC SD resolutions?

If the consoles were released today I'd bet they wouldn't come out of the box with anything but HDMI and HD component outputs.

Modifié par Old Fecker, 03 mars 2011 - 10:57 .

[casedawgz]

You can't really call it marginalization anymore at this point. If you're still using an SDTV, you're many years behind the times. Xbox 360 titles are optimized for 720p, and have been so for years. Waaaaay back when Dead Rising came out, people had this issue. These TVs were obsolete then. And that was five years ago. Which is like a millennium in technology years. SDTVs might as well be stone age relics at this point, and developers shouldn't be expected to optimize their product for them.

[Tabak]

As I said before, the US is not the only market for DA2. Gartner reports that global uptake of HDTV was 30% in June 2010. There are a lot of countries in the world still broadcasting in analog. Some have analog with a few digital broadcasts. Buying expensive HDTV's just to play games is a big ask, especially where TV is not broadcast in HD. 

Arguing about Xbox requiring HDTV is ridiculous. It's been designed for HDTV *BUT* was also designed to be compatible with any TV that has NTSC or PAL and stereo audio capabilities and it is compatible with both 16:9 (widescreen) and 4:3 aspect ratio TVs. That's why it has the settings feature folks. Also, the Americans here seem to forget that the Xbox 360 they buy is not the same machine people in Europe, Asia or Pacific buy. What works on an  NTSC screen can't be used on a PAL display. So please stop assuming you know everything about how others experience things.

When people complained about Mass Effect 2's small text, BioWare’s Michael Gamble wrote, "After investigating potential solutions, we have determined that while this issue does affect a small portion of SDTV owners, we are unable to resolve it for Mass Effect 2 through a title update.

"However, we have taken note of this issue and will take it into consideration as we plan future games in the Mass Effect franchise."

DA2 is not part of the Mass Effect franchise but its obvious from this thread, and the others, that many people find the text too small. I find the text uncomfortably small on my 24" 1920 x 1080 PC monitor. I have never had to adjust screen resolution for any other game apart from this demo and Mass Effect 2. 

For Bioware to get any useful feedback we need to focus on the issue of whether we can comfortably read the text or not. Wasting time arguing over whether everyone has/should have an HDTV is just blowing smoke over the issue. If some people find the text in DA2 too small on HDTV, PC and SDTV but didn't find it too small in DA:O then there is clearly a problem.

Modifié par Tabak, 03 mars 2011 - 12:52 .

[Vector C]

Well that post is just all sorts of incorrect. Hell, the 360 slim systems released less than even one year ago came with standard composite A/V cables. Not component or HDMI. And don't think that is for Microsoft to make more money from people buying them separately because you can find universal versions extremely easily and always cheaper than the Microsoft brand. Not to mention an enormous amount of the non-slim 360 consoles made simply without an HDMI port in the first place (and not just around launch time either).

Of course also the resolutions showed on the back of each and every game box simply show which HD resolutions are supported, not that you need one of those resolution televisions to play the game. Argue against common knowledge all you want but it just makes you look silly with such an enormous library of games perfectly playable (and readable) on SD.

The "four games" point is obviously accurate as none of us SDtv users see the text in other games as "blurry" as you claim or any kind of uncomfortable. Those four (actually three, since Banjo was fixed) games are in an extreme minority that is more than eclipsed by fully playable (and readable) games that are enjoyed by both SD and HD users. And even with those having such small text, I can still comfortably read the small text in Mass Effect 2 easily from my usual gaming spot only a few feet away from my tv. However I had no clue that, for example, the mage in the DA2 demo was called a "Emissary Apprentice" until I looked closely at it on my friend's HDtv.

And finally... Throughout this thread you've constantly conveniently ignored points that you have no answer for or can't refute (sound familiar?). You, yourself, can't seem to find the logic in why the text should be so small as to only please a portion of fans instead of making it even slightly bigger to make it clear for both HD and SD users. I'll quote myself all the way back from the top of page 2. "Question: Did you find the font in DA:O to be too large? No? Then stop making inept arguments."

Also, to anyone bringing up Dead Rising as an excuse to why SDtvs are obsolete and developers shouldn't bother with text readable for SD users, I can't help but to laugh hysterically at your flawed logic. I guess you just up and forgot that Dead Rising 2 released with larger, readable text and lo-and-behold, that didn't hurt the game's sales or reviews nor did it cause a surge of fan feedback demanding it be made smaller for HDtv owners. Quite a different tale than we're hearing from ME2 and DA2, hmm? Good game, bro.

Modifié par Vector C, 03 mars 2011 - 01:07 .

[Vector C]

Tabak wrote...

For Bioware to get any useful feedback we need to focus on the issue of whether we can comfortably read the text or not. Wasting time arguing over whether everyone has/should have an HDTV is just blowing smoke over the issue. If some people find the text in DA2 too small on HDTV, PC and SDTV but didn't find it too small in DA:O then there is clearly a problem.

I love you. Marry me?

[Nash Latkje]

Obviously the text was meant purely as decoration on the screen like everything else. Why else would the designers decide to use such small size.

Or perhaps they get their ideas from the abuse of fine prints on legal documents? Complaints get nowhere with them either.

[manneger]

Might as well just wait and see what Skyrim looks like. I wouldnt be surprised at all to find that Skyrim will have all text perfectly readable, in which case i'll just put my money on that instead. Either way there doesnt seem to be much of a point to buy DA2, so i guess i will have a spring of being outdoors instead of sitting inside and play DA2. My girlfriend will certainly be happy about that though.

[Lazy Murph]

Vector C wrote...
Hell, the 360 slim systems released less than even one year ago came with standard composite A/V cables. Not component or HDMI.

 They came with standard A/V cables to reduce the cost to produce it!  HD cables don't cost that much any more so it didn't make sense for Microsoft to encur the cost of making their own cables, putting them in their little green plastic bags and putting them in the 360 packaging when the public can nip down to the shops and buy a HDMI cable for around 4 quid! It was not as a big thankyou to SD users!

Vector C wrote...
Not to mention an enormous amount of the non-slim 360 consoles made simply without an HDMI port in the first place (and not just around launch time either).

If you can find a launch 360 that still works then you're lucky. Due to the way the original 'Xenon' chip was manufactured, Microsoft basically sent them out knowing they would die. When the Elite was released around June 2007 it featured a HDMI port. These were called the 'Zephyr' chipsets. Every new 360 (Pro & Elite) started being manufactured with this chipset back then. Any existing 360 sold new without the HDMI port from mid-2007 was simply old stock - this is a fact. This was also around the time that MS started to drop 480i from the back of it's game boxes. It's no coincidence that this was also around the same time that HDTVs had started to dramatically drop in price to become more affordable > therefore more widespread.

Vector C wrote...
The "four games" point is obviously accurate as none of us SDtv users see the text in other games as "blurry" as you claim or any kind of uncomfortable. Those four (actually three, since Banjo was fixed) games are in an extreme minority that is more than eclipsed by fully playable (and readable) games that are enjoyed by both SD and HD users. And even with those having such small text, I can still comfortably read the small text in Mass Effect 2 easily from my usual gaming spot only a few feet away from my tv. However I had no clue that, for example, the mage in the DA2 demo was called a "Emissary Apprentice" until I looked closely at it on my friend's HDtv.

Good for you that you can read the text in many games (however, saying that the visuals in a 360 game when viewed via an SD display aren't blurry and undefined is a blatant lie - they are, I've seen them with my own eyes - when I first got a 360 I had an SDTV, the games were blurry when compared to HD res). That doesn't change the fact that SD resolutions aren't officially supported and that therefore the text in games viewed in SD resolutions are blurry and not as defined as they would be when being run at the res they were designed for. Games released for the last few years are designed for 720p (1280x720) not PAL (720x576) and not NTSC (720x480). Like it or not (obviously 'not' in your case), games released on the Xbox 360/PS3 are designed for HD displays.

Vector C wrote...
You, yourself, can't seem to find the logic in why the text should be so small as to only please a portion of fans instead of making it even slightly bigger to make it clear for both HD and SD users.

You're right, I don't understand why the text has been made unreadable on SDTV's and not been rectified, seems like a bit of an oversight on BioWare/EA's part...I've never denied this. But the simple fact is that it is, most probably because it was never tested on a SD display as the 360 doesn't officially support SD resolutions. Games no longer officially support 480i and haven't done for years - the back of game boxes tells you this clearly.

I'm pretty bored of this discussion now as it's just going round in circles. Some people still have SDTV's for whatever reason, and that's fine. But the majority of console gamers use HDTV's (everyone I know of whose a gamer does so on a HDTV of some description). In a perfect world every game made would work perfectly on every display, but it isn't a perfect world and every game doesn't.

Technology moves along very fast, it always has and always will. People either upgrade their kit to keep up or get left behind. It's simple. I'd rather not have to keep buying new kit but I do because this is one of my hobbies and I like to do it as it's intended...and it's intended to be HD right now. When 1080p starts to be the norm for HD gaming then I'll just have to save up and buy a new TV that displays it (as mine only goes up to 1080i). I'm certainly not going to come onto a forum and complain that my outdated tech doesn't display the next best thing properly.

People who game on PCs don't start threads whining that their old kit won't run the next new game properly. They either upgrade their PCs or put up with what they've got. My old PC struggled when playing Dawn of War II, so I saved up for a bit and bought a new PC the other week. I didn't go over to Relic's forum complaining that my older PC wouldn't run the game properly.

I'm being matter-of-fact not because I'm a dick but because this situation is matter-of-fact to me: either buy a HDTV to view the game as it was intended or put up with what you already have and hope a patch gets released. Sorry if people don't like that viewpoint, but this is a forum, and forums are there for people to air their own opinions on things...if you don't like what some people have to say then tough. Everybody is not going to agree.

Modifié par Old Fecker, 03 mars 2011 - 03:01 .

[MuLepton]

Old Fecker wrote...

Stuff.

See, the point isn't that "Games these days are optimized for blablabla".

The point is the following: The same problem occured with Mass Effect 2. A lot of people complained about it. After a looong time, BioWare responded with "Oh guys, sorry, we really didn't think about it, we'd change it if we could, but we can't due to patch limitations. Sorry :("
That mollified people, because, well, **** can happen, and, hey, at least now BioWare was aware of the issue and would act accordingly in the future, right? Right? Wrong. 

Modifié par MuLepton, 03 mars 2011 - 02:56 .

[Lazy Murph]

MuLepton wrote...

Old Fecker wrote...

Stuff.

See, the point isn't that "Games these days are optimized for blablabla".

The point is the following: The same problem occured with Mass Effect 2. A lot of people complained about it. After a looong time, BioWare responded with "Oh guys, sorry, we really didn't think about it, we'd change it if we could, but we can't due to patch limitations. Sorry :("
That mollified people, because, well, **** can happen, and, hey, at least now BioWare was aware of the issue and would act accordingly in the future, right? Right? Wrong. 

BioWare's a big company, the team that made Mass 2 isn't the team the made DA. It's a big oversight, I've already said this before. But it is what it is, maybe BioWare - shock, horror - don't actually really care if the minority of SD users can't read the text. Also, the DA2 team are doing the console ports this time - last time it was Edge of Reality that did the ports.

[hamlin69]

see how its cut off on sdtv? it will display sure, but its not intended for sdtv's.

[MuLepton]

I don't know if you realize it, but what you wrote just makes BioWare seem more incompetent.

a) BioWare knew, but didn't care.
An external company managed to do it right, BioWare on their own didn't.

[Lazy Murph]

MuLepton wrote...

I don't know if you realize it, but what you wrote just makes BioWare seem more incompetent.

a) BioWare knew, but didn't care.
An external company managed to do it right, BioWare on their own didn't.

Yeah, I do realize what I said. Maybe they don't care...maybe they thought they'd make their game the best they could do for today's tech...not old SDTV's.

I don't understand what the SD crowd have a problem with. If you play games as a hobby why would you not use the best kit you can get your hands on, even if it means having to save up for it? I could understand your point of view if the HDTV entry point was still a grand upwards, but it isn't and hasn't been that for bloody years now.

If you raced cars for a hobby would you complain that your 1999 VW Golf Gti couldn't keep up with a 2011 VW Golf Gti?

[MuLepton]

See, for some people playing games is a hobby, but not a top level priority. They play games to relax and have fun, but they might have other, more pressing, things they have to spend money on.

Now, if this game was aimed at a hardcore gamer market, maybe even the competetive crowd, then I'd say your "car racing" argument had some value. But it isn't. And it doesn't.

And many, many people in this and the other thread have stated that the number of games they have trouble with in this regard is *small*. It's not the majority.

[Lazy Murph]

MuLepton wrote...

See, for some people playing games is a hobby, but not a top level priority. They play games to relax and have fun, but they might have other, more pressing, things they have to spend money on. 

That includes me mate, but HD telly's don't cost upwards of a grand anymore. Nor do they only display games.

People who bought a 360/PS3 knew going in that they are consoles designed for HD. They're marketed as such and always have been marketed as 'next-generation, high definition' etc.


-EDIT-

MuLepton wrote...

Now, if this game was aimed at a hardcore gamer market, maybe even the competetive crowd, then I'd say your "car racing" argument had some value. But it isn't. And it doesn't.

Sorry to rain on your parade mate, but the console versions of DA2 are aimed at the hardcore market. The demo on console plays like a mix between Mass Effect and Dynasty Warriors. The pause-style tactical gameplay has been disabled in the demo for a reason - so your non-RPG player thinks that the RPG thing isn't as complicated as it seems. Do you think Mike Laidlaw's talk to the gaming press about "there are more people who are ready to play RPGs than realise it."  was for nothing?     

Modifié par Old Fecker, 03 mars 2011 - 03:47 .

[hamlin69]

MuLepton wrote...

See, for some people playing games is a hobby, but not a top level priority. They play games to relax and have fun, but they might have other, more pressing, things they have to spend money on.

Now, if this game was aimed at a hardcore gamer market, maybe even the competetive crowd, then I'd say your "car racing" argument had some value. But it isn't. And it doesn't.

And many, many people in this and the other thread have stated that the number of games they have trouble with in this regard is *small*. It's not the majority.

But I want to watch a 3D movie on my normal HDTV. Why wont it work! Can companies fix this plz so I can watch 3d tv on my hdtv.

[Lazy Murph]

hamlin69 wrote...

MuLepton wrote...

See, for some people playing games is a hobby, but not a top level priority. They play games to relax and have fun, but they might have other, more pressing, things they have to spend money on.

Now, if this game was aimed at a hardcore gamer market, maybe even the competetive crowd, then I'd say your "car racing" argument had some value. But it isn't. And it doesn't.

And many, many people in this and the other thread have stated that the number of games they have trouble with in this regard is *small*. It's not the majority.

But I want to watch a 3D movie on my normal HDTV. Why wont it work! Can companies fix this plz so I can watch 3d tv on my hdtv.

[chicagojedi]

Why is everyone still arguing about whether to buy HDTVs or not? Anyone saying the answer is to buy  a new tv is simply trolling. It isn't our problem to solve it is Bioware's. They made the text unreadable for the majority of potential buyers. We're on here making the problem known and requesting answers or action. That's our part to play. Bioware has the duty to fix the problem, not us. They can either fix it or lose out on money. Just ignore the trolls and keep pressing for answers.

[Elvis_Mazur]

It's obvious they won't make a game that supports every style of the players. Some people play near the TV, others far from it.

DA2 text, like others, will be designed for a specific style. If you want my personal advice: adapt yourself to the game. It's easier than hoping for any "fix."

[Nopheros]

MuLepton wrote...

See, for some people playing games is a hobby, but not a top level priority. They play games to relax and have fun, but they might have other, more pressing, things they have to spend money on.

Now, if this game was aimed at a hardcore gamer market, maybe even the competetive crowd, then I'd say your "car racing" argument had some value. But it isn't. And it doesn't.

And many, many people in this and the other thread have stated that the number of games they have trouble with in this regard is *small*. It's not the majority.

Sell your car like that other angry bro and buy an HDTV. Pretty much sooooooooolved the problem.