279 réponses à ce sujet

[ViSeiRa]

Sabresandiego wrote...

You also have to remember that Peter is one of the main devs involved with balancing the game, and he did not use a 2 handed warrior in his playthrough. He used an Archer that had backup dual wield, with assasin and duelist specs. Oddly enough this was the strongest class in the demo. Not saying that hes biased, as he has done an awesome job with the game, but it is an odd coincidence that archers were so good. Mike Laidlaw even mentioned archers and rogues as his favorite class. Even Chris Priestly says he normally plays a warrior, but in this game he liked mage. I havent heard a single dev state that they thought warrior was their favorite class.

Activities that are high risk, high reward are usually regarded as more fun by people. classes that fit that description are mage and rogue. A tank that hardly deals damage, and hardly takes damage has little risk and little reward, and for the majority of people is less exciting. I personally play warriors in a way which makes them a high risk, high reward class by focusing solely on offensive output.

I believe most successful future RPG's will move away from the holy trinity of tank, dps, healer considering its fairly obvious that the majority of the population finds the DPS role to be the most fun (which is why you always see looking for tank, looking for healing in MMO's). For the people that do enjoy tanking and healing, these roles should be integrated into every class, so that every class can perform damage, healing, and damage protection at the same time but using differing methods. Guild Wars 2 is using this philosophy and looks to be a great game.

Yeah, it's a little sad really, I remember in Origins when I used to tell myself "Why the hell I'm swinging this big ass sword and only hitting one enemy?", after I got Two Handed Sweep I was like "Hell yeah!", but when they finally decided to implement melee AOE they nerfed the damage output... I'm sure I'll find a build that does considerable amount of damage, but the fact that almost every other class can do massive amounts of damage outright is gonna still nag the hell out of me.

Edit: And high risk playstyle is why I found playing as a Vanguard a lot of fun on ME2, and with the shotgun it was one of risky but powerful classes, I don't like class roles as well, like mages are ranged AOE, warriors are tanks, and rogues are DPS, it'd have been better to allow each class to do each role while being better at one of them, that way each class can sustain itself while still maintaining the different feel of each class.

Modifié par ViSeirA, 26 février 2011 - 08:32 .

[Sabresandiego]

One thing that sucks is that bioware never attempts to balance classes once the game is released, since this is a single player game. Once people figure out the strongest classes and specs, you can expect them to remain that way.

[ViSeiRa]

Sabresandiego wrote...

One thing that sucks is that bioware never attempts to balance classes once the game is released, since this is a single player game. Once people figure out the strongest classes and specs, you can expect them to remain that way.

It's funny cuz Laidlaw in one interview was commenting on how akward warriors felt in Origins, he said "My mage could shoot fireballs while my warrior can awkwardly swing his sword", he even imitated it, but now the warrior doesn't swing awkwardly anymore, they just swing blunt swords.

[godlike13]

Melgrimm wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

When I play a two-handed warrior, I feel as though I'm being punished for not playing the right class.

Too bad Arcane Warrior isn't there so you could make an easy choice based on what's most powerful, right?

LoL, My favorite build was a two-handed Arcane Warrior in Origins.

[Zhel_Ryn]

While I will continue sitting in the 'two handed warriors are potent and useful' group (as well as two handers can tank ), being stuck constantly being the trash cleaner, but not cleaving boss heads role does seem awkward. Granted we may find ourselves never heavily having that issue (don't believe I spent a large portion of the ogre or Hayder fights with just them and no trash around).

Oh well, what could fix this, whether it's Bioware or the community? If they keep the conal effect on all attacks, raising the THW damage would make them OP. Taking the cone out and upping damage, how different does that leave them from other classes/builds? Is that suitable for the masses or Bioware's vision? What about a modal stance that removes the cone but ups damage? That would be the best middle ground I suppose. Or perhaps higher damage versus the first hit, but continually decreasing damage to each mob thereafter. Swing from the left, mobs take less damage as you cleave through solid matter to get to the next mob. Hmmm.

Most of what I'm getting lately from these discussions though? That I really need to go play a shotty Vanguard in ME2 lol.

Modifié par Zhel_Ryn, 26 février 2011 - 08:55 .

[Smoolio]

Another thing that bugs me, when you play a 2h as pure dps you dont fill one of the seemingly required roles ie. tanking, traps/locks or mage. So when on a companion mission or when your forced to bring someone you have to swap out your normal tank, rogue or mage. I think 2h tree should be able to bash locks, then when your doing Fenris missions you can roll Aveline, 2Hhawke, Fenris and Mage on nightmare and not be gimped.

[Reptillius]

Reading this thread I have realized two things. I play two handed warriors differently than others because I'd find ways to line them up to hit them. Like dropping a mighty blow through 2 or 3 enemies by moving left or right a little rather than just one...



And that I type cast my mages rather from being mass carpet bombers into being the healers and CC'ers of my groups way too much.



But Hey. DAII seems to reward me for it. Looks like I'm gonna have some fun with a THW.



And hey. I got to top that 2858 top damage my rogue did in Awakening against the Architect somehow so i think I might play one of these first instead of my usual sword and shield to feel out the encounters from behind the safety of a brick wall character.

[ViSeiRa]

Zhel_Ryn wrote...

While I will continue sitting in the 'two handed warriors are potent and useful' group (as well as two handers can tank ), being stuck constantly being the trash cleaner, but not cleaving boss heads role does seem awkward. Granted we may find ourselves never heavily having that issue (don't believe I spent a large portion of the ogre or Hayder fights with just them and no trash around).

Oh well, what could fix this, whether it's Bioware or the community? If they keep the conal effect on all attacks, raising the THW damage would make them OP. Taking the cone out and upping damage, how different does that leave them from other classes/builds? Is that suitable for the masses or Bioware's vision? What about a modal stance that removes the cone but ups damage? That would be the best middle ground I suppose. Or perhaps higher damage versus the first hit, but continually decreasing damage to each mob thereafter. Swing from the left, mobs take less damage as you cleave through solid matter to get to the next mob. Hmmm.

Most of what I'm getting lately from these discussions though? That I really need to go play a shotty Vanguard in ME2 lol.

You know when the current 2 Handed model would have worked? in the slower paced combat of Origins, in DA2 Mages are the AOE gods, Archer/Dual wield rogues are the DPS gods, S&S are the tanking gods and 2 Handers don't fit.

As to possible solutions, well a start would be to make 2 Handed weapons do more damage on basic attacks than a mage bolt, or a 1 handed weapon for that matter, again I don't want my 2 handed warrior to be a pure damage dealer but as of now he stands nowhere, there's no role to fill.

[wxman]

Seems that at least in the early builds they were making warrior do 1/3-1/2 damage in attempt to make their
overall damage output about the same as the S&S warrior. This was pretty wrong headed end ended up making them pretty gimp... I mean why should their damage output be the same when the S&S warrior have vastly more survivability and quite a few high damage talents as well??? Not to mention the THW is missing out on all stat bonuses, armor bonuses rune slot bonuses etc that a S&S warrior would be enjoying...

It does seem though from the quote below though, that they recognized the issue with THW and hopefully corrected it....

Stanley Woo wrote...

Maria, I can
sympathize with you. It wasn't too too long ago that the QA content team was doing playthroughs and combat balance testing. I was playing as a 2-handed warrior and felt much the same way you do, that 2-handed warriors are hardy enough and don't do enough damage and don't feel powerful enough. Several discussions were held with combat-specialized QA and bugs were filed. After more discussion, some changes were made to make the 2-handed warrior a more viable and fun class earlier in the game.

Now, while 2-handed warrior takes a little getting used to, as it's not the traditional superbad 2-handed warrior that you'd find in other games, it is far more useful early in the game, and warrior players have many options for
speccing. Our QA lead min-maxed a two-handed warrior into doing ridiculously massive damage to the point of one-shotting boss creatures.

This may or may not make this class more fun for you, but it was a problem that I am confident we've addressed many of the concerns you've brought up and made the class more fun than what the demo shows. It is still a bit of a slow-starter class, though, as it doesn't have the shininess of mages or the speed of rogues.

YMMV.

Remember to take anything from the demo with a grain of salt... after all in the demo HP didn't even go up as you leveled....

Modifié par wxman, 26 février 2011 - 09:50 .

[MagicianCamille]

One-shotting bosses sounds pretty OP.

[Reptillius]

one shotting bosses is nice. But one thing to remember when argueing dps... Your rarely talking about a single opponent encounter. Bosses being the exception but only sometimes. Even in DA:O many boss encounters quickly became multi-opponent affairs. The worst one that really comes to my mind is the fight against The Mother in Awakening with it's repeated spawning of some of the enemies if you aren't careful. So while that damage is seeming to be lower it's up t you to use the potential of a two hander to it's fullest.



Mages are great AoE but they are great at ranged. You start dropping friends in on the mage then the mage is going to have problems. As we get into the full game you may find that a viable tactic to deal with the wave type scenario the game works with to actually use that more up close and personal style of a Two Hander when the mage needs to be more on the run or whatever fits your style.



Do Remember... If that Mage has to keep running away from enemies. His AoE advantage and dps is going to be a lot lower... And that is completely ignoring the fact that it's kind of hard to AoE if your stuck in an encounter where the Mage has to do a lot of healing... just as it's a lot more time consuming for a Rogue to single target 16 guys down versus AoE'ing them. In Either Instance you might somehow find a Two Hander a helpful filler or substitute. Each role has it's function. It's just up to us to figure out how to use them to our own best advantage based on what we do. Just as it was in DA:O.

[Sabresandiego]

HP does not increase with level wxman... You need to invest in constitution.

[Maria Caliban]

wxman wrote...

... after all in the demo HP didn't even go up as you leveled....

Mine did.

Sabresandiego wrote...

HP does not increase with level wxman... You need to invest in constitution.

Mine did.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 26 février 2011 - 10:19 .

[Sabresandiego]

Maria Caliban wrote...

wxman wrote...

... after all in the demo HP didn't even go up as you leveled....

Mine did.

Sabresandiego wrote...

HP does not increase with level wxman... You need to invest in constitution.

Mine did.

No it didnt, unless ofcourse you paused real time and altered the coding of the demo. Your level 6 characters have higher health because the game auto invest some points into constitution.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 26 février 2011 - 10:22 .

[Yrkoon]

Sabresandiego wrote...

I believe most successful future RPG's will move away from the holy trinity of tank, dps, healer considering its fairly obvious that the majority of the population finds the DPS role to be the most fun (which is why you always see looking for tank, looking for healing in MMO's).

If that's true  (which I hope it is), then I'd say the so-called  "holy trinity" didn't have much of a shelf-life in the RPG genre to begin with.  Because it really only began with WOW.  Before that there was the Neverwinter nights series and its predecessors, which featured the holy....septinity lol... mage - healer- battle priest - rogue - frontline warrior - monk - bard.

But really, I hope future RPGs  indeed do away with such  boring confines.  Surely *someone* can come up with a  combat system that  still maintains decent challenge,  but doesn't pigeonhole players into 3 mandatory-for-survival classes.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 26 février 2011 - 01:45 .

[blothulfur]

Get rid of bloody classes I says, burn 'em at the stake.

Or make a fighting system like severance blade of darkness, one of the few action adventures where the melee was spot on both challenging and exciting and add the sweet story, characters and roleplaying of a bioware game.

[Xewaka]

blothulfur wrote...
Get rid of bloody classes I says, burn 'em at the stake.
Or make a fighting system like severance blade of darkness, one of the few action adventures where the melee was spot on both challenging and exciting and add the sweet story, characters and roleplaying of a bioware game.

While I agree that the fighting system in Severance was great, fun, and engaging, its inmediate nature and need for direct control doesn't mix well with party based gameplay.

[William_Shepard]

blothulfur wrote...

Get rid of bloody classes I says, burn 'em at the stake.
Or make a fighting system like severance blade of darkness, one of the few action adventures where the melee was spot on both challenging and exciting and add the sweet story, characters and roleplaying of a bioware game.

This is RPG not a action game, if you do not like it, do not play. <_<

[ViSeiRa]

William_Shepard wrote...

blothulfur wrote...

Get rid of bloody classes I says, burn 'em at the stake.
Or make a fighting system like severance blade of darkness, one of the few action adventures where the melee was spot on both challenging and exciting and add the sweet story, characters and roleplaying of a bioware game.

This is RPG not a action game, if you do not like it, do not play. <_<

You'd be wrong to assume that classes are what define an RPG, they could implement a skill based system with the player having access to all abilities from 3 different pools, magical abilites, fighter abilities and thief abilities, that way you can choose which abilitites you want to choose according to your play style, you really love warriors but you still want to steal stuff? pick that skill from the thief trees and so on... it'd work like a charm.

[Zhel_Ryn]

Yes, because you can't have a fully customizable character, full blown story, and choice-consequences in a faster paced intense game. Please~. Wait, don't they call ME and Demon's Souls RPGs? Hmm!



That said, don't think the class system argument came up because people don't want RPG features, but because it's a flawed system that sadly is very stale. Holy trinity has been around since tabletop d&d, and I remember it being commonplace during Everquest days. Sadly though, I don't see an extremely original system coming up and being completely successful any time soon. Many games in development or just releasing (Rift comes to mind) are more or less blending the trinity together though, so that anyone could 'spec' to whichever role is missing.



Funny though, in EQ it actually became holy trinity + enchanter lol. Boy do I miss the days of a pure CC class, able to completely stop a full army of monsters in it's tracks.

[blothulfur]

@ Xewaka, yeah didn't think of the party my bad i'm just not much of a fan of the fighting as seen in the demo too stylized for me, still i'll endure it for the roleplaying.
Divine divinity did an excellent job of breaking down class walls with the skills being open for everybody, they even had scabbards.

Modifié par blothulfur, 26 février 2011 - 02:15 .

[HolyAvenger]

SabreSandiego is correct, you will not be getting extra health or mana/stamina unless you invest points in those stats.



Maybe its just me, maybe because I never played WoW but I miss the complexity of building a party with many varied members each with their own role or two. I hope we don't simply see support roles disappear that would take away a lot for me.

[Maria Caliban]

Sabresandiego wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

wxman wrote...

... after all in the demo HP didn't even go up as you leveled....

Mine did.

Sabresandiego wrote...

HP does not increase with level wxman... You need to invest in constitution.

Mine did.

No it didnt, unless ofcourse you paused real time and altered the coding of the demo. Your level 6 characters have higher health because the game auto invest some points into constitution.

Naturally, you sat over my shoulder and played the demo with me, which is how you know my characters didn't auto-gain health.

HolyAvenger wrote...

SabreSandiego is correct, you will not be getting extra health or mana/stamina unless you invest points in those stats.

SabreSandiego is incorrect. My character's health raised without me putting a single point into Con.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 26 février 2011 - 02:19 .

[William_Shepard]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Maybe its just me, maybe because I never played WoW but I miss the complexity of building a party with many varied members each with their own role or two. I hope we don't simply see support roles disappear that would take away a lot for me.

Yeah, i agree with you.

Modifié par William_Shepard, 26 février 2011 - 02:21 .

[Urazz]

Actually, I found the 2hander tree to be fine. On the 2nd Ogre fight, I used my 2hander warrior to clean up and offtank the minions first while Aveline tanked the Ogre. Sure single target dps felt a bit weak but he was durable as far as dps goes and did good AOE damage.