279 réponses à ce sujet

[Adhin]

Yeah that's an illusion of the mind often times. Sometimes moving faster (even if it takes you 10 seconds longer) can seem like your...doing it faster. For instance lets say it takes you 3 seconds to kill 1 target an there's 4, that's 12 seconds to kill em all. Warrior would take about 8 seconds to kill that 1 target, but you could kill all 4 at the 'exact' same time. So 8 vs 12. 2H is faster but it just doesn't 'feel' like its faster as your single target damage is kinda crappy.

[jomonoe]

Stanley Woo wrote...



YMMV.

Wow, 1 shotting bosses. Seriously? That's just insane. Just when I thought that I was set on SnB (25th anniversary of Zelda, after all. Gotta give the guy in green some recognition:) ), now I want to deal massive damage. Hmmm.....

Modifié par jomonoe, 24 février 2011 - 03:57 .

[lazuli]

Sabresandiego wrote...

TheCreeper wrote...

Two handed isn't suppose to be a tank, that's a job for S&S, two handed is suppose to be more of a glass cannon IE: they deal more damage but they also take more damage.

According to who? Are you telling me the defender tree isnt available for 2 handers? I have news, it is.

While I wouldn't call it a glass cannon, the two handed Warrior will probably have less defensive options than a sword and shield Warrior simply from lacking the bonuses that shields provide.  I don't know how the numbers will add up yet.  No one is claming that two handers can't access the Defender tree, though.

[Patriciachr34]

I actually really enjoyed the two handed warrior.  I've played it twice now and had no problems with survivability.  I usually play this class strictly as DPS and not as a tank.  Aveline keeps the Ogre busy while Bethany and I cleaned up the mobs.  By the second play through with a 2HW, low level Hawke never needed any healing.  Aveline held aggro beautifully and Bethany kept her alive.  I really love the responsiveness they have given the 2H class.  Actually the few times I died was playing a mage. When I play a mage, I keep forgetting the #1 of "squishy" - Do not charge the enemy.

[Taleroth]

lazuli wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

TheCreeper wrote...

Two handed isn't suppose to be a tank, that's a job for S&S, two handed is suppose to be more of a glass cannon IE: they deal more damage but they also take more damage.

According to who? Are you telling me the defender tree isnt available for 2 handers? I have news, it is.

While I wouldn't call it a glass cannon, the two handed Warrior will probably have less defensive options than a sword and shield Warrior simply from lacking the bonuses that shields provide.  I don't know how the numbers will add up yet.  No one is claming that two handers can't access the Defender tree, though.

A major job of tanks is gaining agro.  Not just absorbing damage.  2H's area swings are going to be good in this regard.

Modifié par Taleroth, 24 février 2011 - 04:15 .

[Logen9]

I was thinking the same thing and was rethinking my class of choice for the. Thank you Mr. Woo for informing us that changes were made.

[Wompoo]

kjdhgfiliuhwe wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

I also don't understand how people didn't feel like they were doing much damage with a 2HW...everytime I used Mighty Blow with Giant's Reach, multiple hurlocks exploded. High Str and couple of points in Cun and I was owning. It actually felt a lot easier than my DW rogue playthrough.

Maybe they put all their points into magic instead so they could get more healing from a health pot? 

As I said before, things exploded when I touched them as 2-h, so not really seeing the weaksause argument.

Yes i have to agree with you.

I just replayed the demo to see if, there was a point to this thread and I have to agree, things do explode with a 2 hander, Mighty blow does some serious damge aoe attacks on general as well, tanked Hayder and the 2 flanking him. The 2 hander was doing some serious damage.

[Gabriel S.]

I had sort of like the same thoughts on this. Not only are the huge-arse thick swords back they were also disappointingly ineffective.



Oh, why, oh, why the huuuuuge swords agaaaaiin?!?! ARRRGGGH!!!

[Zhel_Ryn]

Taleroth wrote...

lazuli wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

TheCreeper wrote...

Two handed isn't suppose to be a tank, that's a job for S&S, two handed is suppose to be more of a glass cannon IE: they deal more damage but they also take more damage.

According to who? Are you telling me the defender tree isnt available for 2 handers? I have news, it is.

While I wouldn't call it a glass cannon, the two handed Warrior will probably have less defensive options than a sword and shield Warrior simply from lacking the bonuses that shields provide.  I don't know how the numbers will add up yet.  No one is claming that two handers can't access the Defender tree, though.

A major job of tanks is gaining agro.  Not just absorbing damage.  The S&S really doesn't seem to have much aggro ability outside of taunt.  The 2-hander can get it on several enemies with just basic attacks.

Well, to give S/S a bone, they do have a conal effect on attacks, it's just much smaller for non-shield actives.

As for TH v. S/S tanking, S/S gets 25/50% damage resistance via sustain, immunity to crit and flanking bonuses, and +20% chance for normal hits to be glancing, in exchange for a -25% damage debuff. Good advantages, but nothing end of the world in my mind.

TH feels like it'd be a very good jack of trades, and I still plan to run a TH tank on nightmare for my first game. I find it odd the game gives you a shoddy dps score compared to all others in the Isabella portion (~70dps, same as mage, 130+ for S/S and rogues), and I think that's what hurting as  TH damage dealer. But for tanking, with Stonewall and Taunt, I had a blast standing toe to toe with everything the demo throws at you. And watching the ogre swings go from big chunks to squat slivers due to stonewall was awesome!

[X-Frame]

I'm sure when the 2H Warrior levels up it's 2H skill tree they'll have some ridiculous CC abilities and be able to do tons of damage.

[wonko33]

it amazes me how many actuaries play games. They analyze every little details, all plus and minuses of each classes and skills and all ended up playing a Mages in DAO. Guess what? It's fun to kill something swinging a great maul, it looks cool. But it looks like for a lot of people it is fun to maximize their characters, to each it's own.



Now on a multiplayer game I would agree it's a big deal to keep skills and classes balance. On singleplayer games, i'd rather the dev team work on fixing save bugs and crash to desktop bugs.

[lazuli]

Taleroth wrote...
A major job of tanks is gaining agro.  Not just absorbing damage.  2H's area swings are going to be good in this regard.

Certainly.  I just wanted to point out that shields will probably contribute more greatly to the Warrior's defense than two handed swords.  If you're looking at it from a team perspective, as we probably should be, I can see the appeal of additional aggro generation.  These classes don't exist in a vacuum, after all.  But if we bring that up, then you'd also need to consider that other classes have aggro dumping abilities, like Evade or Mind Blast.  Perhaps only having Taunt (and a few aoe attacks) isn't such a bad thing.  But I digress.

[Adhin]

Yeah good point Iazuli, and I think that point also extents to show that they've accounted for a wide variety of play styles based off builds. Being able to use the rogue to manage the party aggro is a concept you generally don't see. Usually they try to manage there own while a Warrior manages party wide to try and suck it all onto them selves. The fact everyone has abilities to grab or remove (or in rogues case, re-direct) is pretty damn awesome.

[sonsonthebia07]

HolyAvenger wrote...

I also don't understand how people didn't feel like they were doing much damage with a 2HW...everytime I used Mighty Blow with Giant's Reach, multiple hurlocks exploded. High Str and couple of points in Cun and I was owning. It actually felt a lot easier than my DW rogue playthrough.

I was saying that the normal attacks felt like they weren't doing too much damage. They seemed to be hitting for about as much as the rogue, and the rogue attacks way faster obviously. The skills seemed to be good, so when you get a lot of skills 2hwarrior will be a force I can bet.

Will have to roll through this again and see if I was imagining things.

[frontlyne]

I couldn't disagree more. I've played all the classes, except Archer, and I found the Two-handed Warrior the most effective. Of course we may differ in our playing styles and/or expectations of the class but I enjoyed that particular class the most, so far.

Modifié par frontlyne, 24 février 2011 - 05:09 .

[HolyAvenger]

Yeah I can imagine auto-attack not being too great but I was too busy spamming my multiple talents to notice.

[Sierra Crysis]

In my opinion. it's impossible to determine the sturdiness, or the power of the warrior class from the demo because their Damage and defense trees were respectively locked. Even if you maxed the 2h tree by the end of the demo, you've still got zero in vanguard, and no berserker or reaver, which, from what I hear when combined... will be ridiculous.

Reaver's all about killing them before they kill you.. And I compare it to ME2's vanguard, high risk, high pay off... I can easily see the 2hander being ridiculously powerful.

I'd play one myself, if I didn't have the largest hunch that all the warrior's armors are going to look so..... bulky.



That said, I just gotta put faith that Duelist/Assassin Dualwield will do decent damage as well.

[jbblue05]

The THW took too long to kill normal enemies with auto-attack.

But I still plan on my 1st character being a THW specializing in Vanguard and Warmonger

[Frinklin]

Man, I must either be really good or really bad, because I totally killed playing the THW. Did much better than I did with S&S or DW. I haven't play Mage because i never play mage. Peter Jackson was right, magic is boring.

[Zhel_Ryn]

Sierra Crysis wrote...

In my opinion. it's impossible to determine the sturdiness, or the power of the warrior class from the demo because their Damage and defense trees were respectively locked. Even if you maxed the 2h tree by the end of the demo, you've still got zero in vanguard, and no berserker or reaver, which, from what I hear when combined... will be ridiculous.
Reaver's all about killing them before they kill you.. And I compare it to ME2's vanguard, high risk, high pay off... I can easily see the 2hander being ridiculously powerful.
I'd play one myself, if I didn't have the largest hunch that all the warrior's armors are going to look so..... bulky.

That said, I just gotta put faith that Duelist/Assassin Dualwield will do decent damage as well.

Agreed, the demo is just a taste. The other classes are the same as well, with rogues missing their stances and backstabbing trees. Heck, I have yet to find a way to actually have a group with any of the three cross class combos, you either can't get to the state inducing upgrades, or you can't get the state abusing upgrades! Many things are missing from this setup that we don't see the full picture yet.

As for the number crunching 'actuaries'? I enjoy figuring that stuff out, but there's always a spot for the pure 'I love playing this just cause I love playing it'. I thoroughly enjoyed the TH warrior in DA:O both vanilla and modded, and next to archer, everyone seemed to always shoot them down as inefficient.

For those curious though, I grabbed the numbers of the Isabella weapons and the attribute scores:
Fereldan Greatsword (TH) - 37 damage (61 dps)
   Attributes - 27 STR 45 damage (74 dps)
Fereldan Longsword (SS) - 33 damage (61 dps)
   Attributes - 27 STR 75 damage (141 dps)

The weapons seem right according to the dev post earlier, but no idea what is up with the attribute window. Besides Shield Defense and it's -25% damage (which for these numbers was off), there's no damage/dps altering passive or sustainable for warriors in the demo.

[Adhin]

That's probably because you where positioning your self right MyNorthernSky. If you notice most complaints are vs a single mob.

[ViSeiRa]

 Maria, you stole my thunder... I've said exactly the same in the feedback thread, 2 Handed Warriors feel like weaklings, and that comes after doing more than 9 playthroughs of the demo, the problem is this, S&S do actually the same damage as 2 Handers in basic chains, and have the benefit of more armor from the shield, 2 Handed Warriors' advantage is situational, you have to hold aggro of 3 enemies or more in order to make them useful.

Peter Thomas wrote...
Damage numbers in that demo are very rough, not necessarily what is in the final game.

Per hit, bows do about 3.5x what a 2-handed weapon does. This is because they are a single target weapon and have a slower attack speed. In general, the DPS of a Rogue will be about double that of a Warrior, but it only applies to single targets, whereas a Warrior can affect multiple enemies. Mages have the same DPS as a Warrior, but only affect a single target, but their attacks are much easier to vary in damage type, bypassing armor/resistances.

DPS values for Rogues are actually higher for Dual Weapons than for Archery, but this is, in part, offset by the increased danger a Rogue is in by being in melee range. Archery does have an advantage in that all it's damage is applied at once, which is more likely to knock an enemy around with the force of the attack.

Here are some statistics for optimal basic attack chains with high-level weapons (to better show differences).

Style - Weapon Damage - Hits per Chain - Optimal Chain Duration - DPS - DPS compared to Two Handed

Weapon and Shield - 42 - 5 - 2.77s - 75.58 - 1.007
Two Handed - 48 - 5 - 3.2s - 75 - 1.0
Dual Weapon - 52 - 10 - 2.52s - 205.8 - 2.7
Archery - 166 - 5 - 5.58s - 148.5 - 1.98
Staff - 57 - 5 - 3.86s - 73.7 - 0.98

This is a quote from Peter on the talents thread, 2 Handed warriors have the lowest DPS in the game, in order to make use of their wider arc you have to have some tanking abilities, like Taunt for example in order to hold multiple enemies around you but then again with less armor than a S&S warrior you risk getting killed very fast, I really don't know what to make of this, because 2 Handers are my best class and right now they feel so underpowered.

Edit: There's something else, I expected 2 Handers might be weak only at the earlier levels, so I used the console in the demo to get to level 20 before going to Kirkwall and lucky me the enemies there scaled to my level, 2 Handers still feel weak, mages and archers do insane amount of AOE damage, rogues do awesome DPS, S&S are impossible to kill, while 2 Handers are good at standing around doing nothing.... I'm a little disappointed.

Modifié par ViSeirA, 24 février 2011 - 06:06 .

[Adhin]

*just qouted that a page or 2 back* <_<

Anyway they wont have 'less armor'. If you go Defender you can have about 5% less 'Defense' (aka, 5% chance they miss you directly) as you can't stack Turn the Blade and the one 20% Defense talent WnS have. Though WnS does get that damage resistant thing with the shield which, granted will absorb a lot of the incoming damage a 2h'er wouldn't. But to use that you give up on a lot of your damage output which ultimately means that group is going to die a lot slower.

It's a kill them before they kill you vs a outlasting. WnS, with that type of setup, is an 'outlast, rely on party to kill'. 2H is kill them before they get you option, and with the HP and base Armor % you'll still be a good tank, just a faster tank.

Modifié par Adhin, 24 février 2011 - 06:13 .

[ViSeiRa]

Adhin wrote...

*just qouted that a page or 2 back* >.>

LOL, just saw it, I thought I'd post first before checking the other replies... 

[kjdhgfiliuhwe]

The fact that you think you need to taunt the enemies yourself as a 2-h shows how close minded you are. Nothing is stopping your 2-h warrior from aoeing clusters of enemies your tank has taunted.