279 réponses à ce sujet

[marcusgs221]

Adhin wrote...

@marcusgs221: you don't, but Cunning (critical hit, backstab is a talent now damage) also increases your Defense Rating. Peter Thomas has stated a few times that in one of his builds he built Aveline for a tank and had nearly equal Str, Cun, and Con. Cunning was for the Defense rating (aka, chance enemies don't hit you). There's a whole thread around here detailing out how all the stats work now. And they're all pretty straight forward in there usefulness.

It's just a matter of 'do I want to up magic for Magic Resistance' as a non-mage. Which I doubt many warriors will but if your making a Templar whos all about killing mages, I can see it being a 100% viable option over Cunning.

If this is the case the builds will be much different than DAO maybe it will be a good thing maybe not. im all for change as long as it works and the char is still usefull. i can see several build attempts for this game to optimize.

[sidion77]

Yrkoon wrote...

Hellbound555 wrote...

is it just me or does the 2-hander cleave through multiple enemies caught in the sword-swing's arc?

That's the   Giant's Reach passive.  A Passive.  This *alone* leads me to believe that 2-handers will eventually become  insanely more  powerful than people here think.  Can you imagine how much carnage you'll be doing as a result of this passive, once you get a good weapon and start raising your strength?

This makes me think of the 2H warrior as a trash sweeper. Good at cleaning up weaker mobs but not good at going toe to toe with an ogre for example.
The sword and shield warrior made me feel like a tank where I could sit in the pocket with relative immunity but didn't hit hard.
The rogue actually let me move and evade attacks and does lots of damage to single targets and has lots of neat tricks.
The mage seems like it's going to be my fav class as it has stuns, cc and high damage.

So in the end I'm dissappointed in the 2H warrior but hopefully there are some surprises down the line.

[monstertrucks]

you know, I don't think it makes sense for there to be a THW in the party since the rogues kill much faster and can be just as much of a wrecking ball...Aveline is a good tank

[marcusgs221]

monstertrucks wrote...

you know, I don't think it makes sense for there to be a THW in the party since the rogues kill much faster and can be just as much of a wrecking ball...Aveline is a good tank

not necessary but usefull in some situations. personally i like two warriors a rogue and a mage for my set up but there are many that work.

[tmp7704]

soteria wrote...

I hate to even argue either side of this given how little we know, but we can imagine that there's a way to min/max a character to be awesome at one thing, and another way to make a character awesome at something else.  Those two ways might not necessarily involve the same stats.

I suppose that's possible, but then if you can min-max the warrior as damage dealer to the point where even the bosses fall like critters, then it begs a question what other role that warrior could perform which would make the battles go anywhere near as effective  I mean, there's little practical benefit in being able to tank stuff which you could otherwise just mow down in near instant. And there doesn't seem to be a role other than these two for the warrior to perform that'd be really useful.

Disclaimer:  I never believed that every stat could or will be useful in the first place.  Magic for rogues, for example, or strength for mages--I just don't see it.

I didn't see it either especially given how the stat system was changed to this whole "one primary stat for each class" business which if anything supported the min-maxing rather than discourage it. Still, was willing to accept that the developer has wider view of the whole system.

Modifié par tmp7704, 24 février 2011 - 11:29 .

[Zhel_Ryn]

True. Hopefully the one shotted boss was with a powerful ability and on a low difficulty, so he can slap that silly two hander around when it comes to hard/nightmare.



Compared to DA:O though, seems like you can argue or justify using other stats more. A warrior wouldn't ever stat Cunning beyond skill reqs. Only stats I don't see much improvement on are will and constitution though. Wonder if 5 health/stamina/mana is a bigger deal here or not...

[wxman]

ghostmessiah202 wrote...

Actually, in the beggining portion of the game, if you switch weapons, you switch to a much better weapon. So if you switch from Dual wield to bow, the bow is much higher level than the Daggers. And if you switch from 2hander to sword and board the sword is a higher dps sword. So once we actually play the game and get 'real' weapons it will feel better balanced (i hope)

I think you my have hit the nail on the head on why people are complaining about the THW. The DPS on the THW auto attack in the demo was horrible. I didn't find it the weakest or hardest to play though, I actually had more trouble with the mage, and saw the rogue as possibly the strongest.... In the exagerated portion the THW was by far the most powerful though, while my rogue almost got killed a few times.

[tmp7704]

Zhel_Ryn wrote...

Only stats I don't see much improvement on are will and constitution though. Wonder if 5 health/stamina/mana is a bigger deal here or not...

Yeah, kinda felt the same. It's hard to tell without knowing the damage numbers at higher levels, but 5 point gain seems rather... minuscule. The fixed amount also has a weird side-effect of characters with less hp getting bigger benefit, and the gain diminishing as your hp pool grows which i'm not sure is the case with other stats -- crit damage seems to be fixed gain 1% per point, e.g.

[Adhin]

Health is actually an important part to resisting force (and thus making you an effective tank). Peter mentioned this and confirmed a formula I had writen up based off one he put up. Here's the quote.

Peter Thomas wrote...

Adhin wrote...

Yeah I'd
like to get a direct confirmation as to % of maxHP being the 'check against' for force applied. That being higher HP increases the 'check' for the whole thing. For instance something like this.

((Damage * ForceMod) - Fortitude) > maxHP*0.1

Yes. Damage is post-resistances as well, so Armor reduces physical force as well.

Someone
mentioned earlier about player ability damage numbers and force multipliers. Enemies do not use player abilities, so don't use that as a basis for how much you need.

Basically the idea is that if you take more then 10% of your HP in damage (not counting fortitude) you get knocked back, and to extreme amounts past that 10% (10% MAX hp, not current) you can get knocked completely on your ass. So Con = increasing your threshold for when you'll get knocked around. Str (ignoring dmg) increases your Fortitude rating which 'directly' eats away at the force put towards you (which is equal to dmg, or increased based off skill use).

So a combination of the 2 should keep you on your feet for a good bit, though in comparison 1 con is about a half as effective at resisting as a point in str. That being 10hp = 1 fortitude as far as effectiveness is concerned. Also keep in mind that pretty much all sources of healing are now % based instead of 'direct' values like in DAO. So higher HP? Means bigger heals!

My first playthrough is going to be a Warrior with enough str to equip heavy armor, and the rest pretty much all into Con. because I, frankly, just love playing wreckless warriors with massive health pools. And with how healing works thats an actually viable build this time around unlike in DAO where it actually hampered you.

Modifié par Adhin, 24 février 2011 - 12:16 .

[Zhel_Ryn]

Interesting to know. It skipped my mind that the heal spells I've seen are all % now (Heal is 40/60, Spirit healer's group heal is 30% w/o upgrades). Definitely makes constitution look more meaty than before. Not quite sold yet, as we have no idea how health scales with level or not, but I definitely won't write it out yet.



Willpower gets some of that as well, since the stamina heal abilities are %s too.

[Adhin]

It's actually 80% in the full game, or the more current version. So even better then the demo but yeah. And yeah HP per lvl is something im confused about. If you look at the same your characters gain 0 HP per lvl. Its all base + Con. I have a hard time believing its actually like that in the main game and feel like the awkward stat thing in the demo is mostly there just for the sake of the demo you know?

Either way I like that there using %based stuff a bit more now as it auto-scales its self. Armor, for instance is %based instead of static numbers like it was in DAO, so instead of becoming near-immune and only taking 1-4 dmg, you'll end up taking more continues damage and the difference between a big attack and a smaller one will be less noticeable lets say. Gone over that before in other threads so i'll not here.

[bri193]

Don't know if anyone mentioned this, didn't have time to read 8 pages ...

First, I have not yet played the demo, so my comments based on DA:O and what I have read about the DA2 skills...

In DA:O THW made terrible tanks and were not meant to draw aggro or engage with masses of enemies in one go. I never used Threaten or Taunt with Sten/Ogren and gave them all the hostility reduction kit I could find. Disengage was the most useful warrior talent for a THW. Also, they were the most difficult class to build properly to be effective.

I usually played rogues, however I spent as much if not more on building Sten and Ogren properly and working on there tactics selection and order so they could say alive and be effective.

THW were highly dependent on sustainables, required low fatigue armour with stamina enhancement, and stamina buffs to work properly. Also in DA:O certain 2H skills could seriously bork your THW if used at the wrong time. Tactics selection and order were critical.

They were a 3 attribute class, needing STR, DEX and WIL. Getting the balance right was not easy... They needed very good medium armour to keep fatigue down, putting a THW in heavy or massive armour ruins their effectiveness.

Done right, a THW is a great party addition for mages using immobilising spells like freezing, petrify, etc cos they can use crits to shatter, and they can 'one-hit' remaining enemies that have been hit with AoE spells.

[1varangian]

The AoE damage for basic attacks of THW's and Warriors in general was a really poor design decision.

Bioware overdid the roles of the classes, effectively locking them into one thing. For THW that's killing waves of lesser minions effectively. Perhaps the most boring 'role' imaginable. Most of the time, it's far more effective to focus on a single target at a time anyway, to reduce the amount of damage output around you.

It's just wrong to have a guy with daggers be the one to kill the ogre, and not the brutish THW guy. It should be up to the player whether he wants his THW to have AoE talents or talents against big armored bosses.

Sucking with a greatsword against a single boss target just because you are the 'AoE guy' is inexcusable. I would like to see the Warrior AoE attacks removed from basic attacks and moved into talents where they would be optional and their use discretional. You wouldn't use an active AoE talent against just one enemy, so why does the game force you to AoE with weakened dmg all the time?

Modifié par 1varangian, 24 février 2011 - 01:13 .

[TwistedComplex]

Sabresandiego wrote...

TheCreeper wrote...

Two handed isn't suppose to be a tank, that's a job for S&S, two handed is suppose to be more of a glass cannon IE: they deal more damage but they also take more damage.

According to who? Are you telling me the defender tree isnt available for 2 handers? I have news, it is.

You can also go down the 2 hand tree while using a shield

Doesn't make it a good idea

[JasmoVT]

Must say I played through the 2 hander twice and once I got the hang of it found it was quite awesome. True when fighting one on one it can seem weak, but against groups it is q;uite awesome. If you watch the animation, several of the skills do damage to multiple mobs over and above the ones that are identified as such. The trick with a 2 hander is to wade into a group, use the multiple mob skills then back out and be defensive until those are up again. Watching 5 or 6 mobs fly to pieces from a single attack is awesome.

[Yrkoon]

bri193 wrote...
They were a 3 attribute class, needing STR, DEX and WIL. Getting the balance right was not easy...

There's the reason why your 2h warriors weren't  completely awesome in DA:O.

2h handers in DA:O were not a 3 stat class.    They were a 1 stat class.  Strength to be exact.    In DA:O, Any deviation from a pure strength build hurts 2handers tremendously, as it  lessons their damage output.   lessening damage output means their fights lasted longer.  Fights lasting longer means  they're  getting hit more.   And getting hit more means  a greater chance of falling in battle.

And with 2 handers, Heavy or massive armor was absolutely the best way to go.   Since you have to sacrifice  Dex (defense) in order to maximize strength,  you NEED a high armor rating to lessen the damage done to you  when you do get hit in melee.

Overall, I'd say that 2-handers made  lousy tanks.  But they weren't glass cannons either.  They had way more than enough survivability on the battle field. They just weren't the masters of it.    instead, they had...skills to   compensate.    For example, Indomitable made them immune to CC effects.  Their critical hits stun opponents.  Their  pommel strikes knock opponents on their ass, and  their 2h sweeps are a reliable, high damage AOE.  You put all this together and what you have is  something unique, rather than classifiable.

As for DPS... well, DA:O didn't have a DPS meter so it's hard to say if its accurate to call them DPS masters.  I will say that  in DAO and Awakening, my 2handers had an amazing ability to end fights rather quickly.   There's no "death by 1000 papercuts" effect that you got with dual-wielders.     Instead, you could 1 or 2-shot white mobs.  And you could   stun-lock elites  by just chaining your 2h talents, and kill them in a few hits before they can do anything to you.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 24 février 2011 - 01:14 .

[WidowMaker9394]

THW's are amazing in Two Worlds 2. They're excellent at taking on any kind of enemy in any number and with an high-level enchanted blade you truly feel powerful.



DA2 didn't give me the same satisfaction, sadly.

[Jwlynas]

I'm not sure about weaksauce even in the demo. Whirlwind was beastly at the start of the demo, able to take out whatever was near me, Ogre aside.

Scythe is an amazing charge, Mighty Blow is pretty powerful and that Pommel strike is great for stunning because it charges up nice and fast.

I also never had a problem with Two-handers in the last game. Me, Sten and Oghren (With Wynne keeping us moving) tore through everything with relative ease even on hard.

[Loc'n'lol]

Jwlynas wrote...

Pommel strike

That's not a two-handed talent !

EDIT: spelling, I fail at it.

Modifié par _Loc_N_lol_, 24 février 2011 - 03:23 .

[bri193]

Yrkoon wrote...

bri193 wrote...
They were a 3 attribute class, needing STR, DEX and WIL. Getting the balance right was not easy...

There's the reason why your 2h warriors weren't  completely awesome in DA:O.
2h handers in DA:O were not a 3 stat class.    They were a 1 stat class.  Strength to be exact.    In DA:O, Any deviation from a pure strength build hurts 2handers tremendously, as it  lessons their damage output.   lessening damage output means their fights lasted longer.  Fights lasting longer means  they're  getting hit more.   And getting hit more means  a greater chance of falling in battle.
And with 2 handers, Heavy or massive armor was absolutely the best way to go.   Since you have to sacrifice  Dex (defense) in order to maximize strength,  you NEED a high armor rating to lessen the damage done to you  when you do get hit in melee.

As I said, I played rogues in DA:O... My THW experience was from building Sten and Ogren to be useful party members. My builds for them  were awesome enough so that either one or the other was always in my party.
Having said that, I disagree with almost everything you wrote regarding a THW build.
Regarding stats:
Yes STR is important, and this was always the primary stat for my THW builds. However,  damage from STR is nothing unless you can hit, thus the need for enough DEX. DEX also help with defense and was a requirement for some skills... 
Regarding stamina and fatigue:
Sustainables were the bread-and-butter of the THW in DA:O. I always had these running, so had to put a few points into Will Power for stamina and gave as much will buffing kit I could find that wasn't mage restricted. Fatigue was the bane of a THW, so kept them in medium armour.  Wades Superior Dragonskin medium was the best THW armour in the game, and no, you did not NEED a high armour rating cos a THW is not a tank.. If your THW dies due to too many hits from  mobs, then your tactics and build was wrong. Maintaining low hostility and Disengage were the escape route for a 2H'er, not a high AR...
Party synergy:
My THW builds were NOT for playing solo on hardcore. They worked in a party environment, and specifically with mage support.

Modifié par bri193, 24 février 2011 - 03:06 .

[Jwlynas]

_Loc_N_lol_ wrote...

Jwlynas wrote...

Pommel strike

That's not a twho-handed talent !

...<_< Close enough

Dammit, caught out already. In my defense, its a talent you can have and use while being  two-handed guy, so surely its permissable?

Modifié par Jwlynas, 24 février 2011 - 03:16 .

[Loc'n'lol]

I think it boils down to the two handed warrior being kind of the jack of all trades, master of none, of DA2.

I can take a lot of damage, but not as much as a shield warrior.
I can do quite a lot of damage to a single opponent, but not as much as a rogue
I can do quite a lot of damage to groups of opponents, but not as much as a mage.

Modifié par _Loc_N_lol_, 24 février 2011 - 03:27 .

[AETHELDOD2]

_Loc_N_lol_ wrote...

I think it boils down to the two handed warrior being kind of the jack of all trades, master of none, of DA2.

I can take a lot of damage, but not as much as a shield warrior.
I can do quite a lot of damage to a single opponent, but not as much as a rogue
I can do quite a lot of damage to groups of opponents, but not as much as a mage.

My kind of style

Really tho I had the best time with the THW than any other class , and contrary to what people say I found rogues to be weak , but I dont like how they play:sick: so mayhaps I am biased. Also my THW was never knocked back by the ogre , unlike the rogue that never did anything good against the ogre because he was at the floor smelling dirt all the time , knocked every time he got up ...... pathetic.

[Itkovian]

TwistedComplex wrote...

Sabresandiego wrote...

TheCreeper wrote...

Two handed isn't suppose to be a tank, that's a job for S&S, two handed is suppose to be more of a glass cannon IE: they deal more damage but they also take more damage.

According to who? Are you telling me the defender tree isnt available for 2 handers? I have news, it is.

You can also go down the 2 hand tree while using a shield

Doesn't make it a good idea

No, but a sword and shield warrior could go down the Vanguard tree, which increases DPS.

As was previously stated, the Sword and Shield spec still deals competitive damage, unless it is over a smaller area or a single target. As such, making a S&S warrior with the Vanguard tree would still make him rather dangerous while being an effective tank.

Itkovian

[iampool]

I want to try a mage in nightmare. I mean, in the demo if your mage was surrounded by enemies you could just use a fireball, or meteor swarm or w/e is called now, but in nightmare... Oh yeah, i defenitly wanna try that