279 réponses à ce sujet

[Edge2177]

End game 2h warrior is pretty beastly with multiple attacks so that you decimate, until you get there the progression is slow though.

[Morning808]

finnugold wrote...

I have to agree with this. I played through the demo once with each class and my 2H war was the only one who managed to die to the ogre.

Thats funny...its the only one that lived for me...mages I just hit and run after my party died so they don't count

[KennethAFTopp]

I was thinking about this, and considering that I might as well say it in here, than make a new thread as it is warrior related, I was very disappointed with the Sword'n'board warrior actually, not so much the effectivness, but like the sustained ability which Aveline has that makes her only attack animation a boring stabbing motion constantly.

[Grodash]

I can play through the Ogre battle with two-handed warrior without using a single pot and I'm absolutely in love with it, the splash damage from hitting multiple mobs is the best thing that could have happened to the spec from Origins, DW Rogue does have higher single target dps, yes, doesn't matter when I'm killing 3 mobs at the same time.



Tanking the Ogre with your 2h warrior might not be the best idea ever, but then again you don't tank him with a mage or a rogue either, do you? Let Aveline do the job at him, 2h warrior is excellent at offtanking and killing incoming waves with Bethany's help, once those are done you just go behind the ogre and slash him down while Aveline happily sits there taking the beating in the face.



Considering the potential damage and synergy on multiple BRITTLE mobs (and Mages being unable to Shatter them on their own) I couldn't be more happy, hello 300% damage mightly strike on multiple frozen mobs.

[soteria]

tmp7704 wrote...

I suppose that's possible, but then if you can min-max the warrior as damage dealer to the point where even the bosses fall like critters, then it begs a question what other role that warrior could perform which would make the battles go anywhere near as effective I mean, there's little practical benefit in being able to tank stuff which you could otherwise just mow down in near instant. And there doesn't seem to be a role other than these two for the warrior to perform that'd be really useful.

I don't know about that. First, we don't know the circumstances of these one-shot boss kills, and second, the game involves a lot more than just boss fights. If you build a character that can situationally one-shot enemies but is a glass cannon and sucks at "trash," how useful is that for the bulk of the game? Again, I speculate. I'm not saying that's how his character actually was.

Yeah, kinda felt the same. It's hard to tell without knowing the damage numbers at higher levels, but 5 point gain seems rather... minuscule. The fixed amount also has a weird side-effect of characters with less hp getting bigger benefit, and the gain diminishing as your hp pool grows which i'm not sure is the case with other stats -- crit damage seems to be fixed gain 1% per point, e.g.

Yeah, it does seem really strange and weak. I'm seeing cunning raise defense by from 3-10% per point. Constitution can only match that value at HP levels close to 100-150. The only possible downsides to the huge advantage cunning seems to have are the still-unknown frequency of auto-hit attacks and magic damage. Even if HP reduces your chance to be knocked around, don't warrior get talents to stop that?

[1varangian]

_Loc_N_lol_ wrote...

I think it boils down to the two handed warrior being kind of the jack of all trades, master of none, of DA2.

I can take a lot of damage, but not as much as a shield warrior.
I can do quite a lot of damage to a single opponent, but not as much as a rogue
I can do quite a lot of damage to groups of opponents, but not as much as a mage.

That's it and it's just wrong.

THW's should have the best damage against heavily armored targets who are otherwise difficult to damage. Oh wait they "streamlined" armor so that consideration is out the window. Armor is a percentage now so weapon choice doesn't matter. Only "roles" matter.

And the "role" of the big guy with the huge sword is to kill waves of insignificant minions while the dagger Rogue goes after the big bad boss. Daggers are the weapon of choice against a stone Golem, not the Maul.

Modifié par 1varangian, 24 février 2011 - 07:27 .

[PinkShoes]

Yeah i did feel that they were weaker but i also think i may be and so may other people be remember how it was to play as a super powerful badass 2H in the middle/end of origins and awakening.



But i do think even that they are probably a bit weaker than before.

[BIO18]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Maria, I can sympathize with you. It wasn't too too long ago that the QA content team was doing playthroughs and combat balance testing. I was playing as a 2-handed warrior and felt much the same way you do, that 2-handed warriors are hardy enough and don't do enough damage and don't feel powerful enough. Several discussions were held with combat-specialized QA and bugs were filed. After more discussion, some changes were made to make the 2-handed warrior a more viable and fun class earlier in the game.

Now, while 2-handed warrior takes a little getting used to, as it's not the traditional superbad 2-handed warrior that you'd find in other games, it is far more useful early in the game, and warrior players have many options for speccing. Our QA lead min-maxed a two-handed warrior into doing ridiculously massive damage to the point of one-shotting boss creatures.

This may or may not make this class more fun for you, but it was a problem that I am confident we've addressed many of the concerns you've brought up and made the class more fun than what the demo shows. It is still a bit of a slow-starter class, though, as it doesn't have the shininess of mages or the speed of rogues.

YMMV.

So does this mean that the 2H warriors have been fixed ? Or are they still like in the demo ?

[blothulfur]

You know though I feel somewhat reassured by mr Woo's response i've still got to question the wisdom of making the two hander such a weak fighter in comparison to the rogue, rogues take advantgae of situations, play it smart and cheat they don't out melee a fully trained zweihander in straight up combat.

Really don't like feeling like a weak link in the party that has to play a secondary role to rogues as a scrapper, weren't bioware aiming to fix rogues so that they didn't serve as just another version of a fighter in DA2 because if the demo is anything to go by they've failed and made an uber warrior that castrates my main character.

Ah well it's just combat, i'll stick it on easy and grind through for the story and characters.

[Sabresandiego]

To be honest, I think Bioware put more effort into balancing DA2 then DA1. Single player games usually have much worse balance then multiplayer games, and DA2 is a single player game so dont expect all classes to be equal. Just hope that its more balanced then DA1, which was not even remotely balanced and contained horrible gameplay mechanics like 5sec cooldown potions that u could constantly drink. Judging by the demo, DA2 is way better than DA1 in terms of balance, even if 2 handers are at the bottom.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 24 février 2011 - 10:38 .

[Cuthlan]

The 2h warrior will probably be just like it was in DA:O; very powerful and fun to play if you built it (and your party) properly... but looked at as weak by most because they either didn't bother, or didn't understand how, to do that.

[TeamLexana]

Cuthlan wrote...

The 2h warrior will probably be just like it was in DA:O; very powerful and fun to play if you built it (and your party) properly... but looked at as weak by most because they either didn't bother, or didn't understand how, to do that.

I agree with that. I used to hate 2H warriers myself even since I never played that class and was stuck with a Sten who was missing a spec and a Oghren who usually was very very badly leveled up by time I got him. Then I played Awakening, respeced to all strength, and voila! Awakening Oghren is hands down my BEST party in all of DA, outside of me finally trying warrier and going 2H myself of course.

He could take damage, he dish damage, and he'd hold aggro much much better then the W/S with Indomitable because couldn't be stunned by a weasly little rogue or get knocked down. He even inspired me to play a 2H Warden in Origins and it kicked ass, I was really shocked how completely badass it was. I even immediatly start pulling Alistair out of W/S now when I'm not a warrier myself and train him 2H because even with the 4 or so starting talents he has in W/S, it's worth the loss just so he can be a 2H, lol.

[soteria]

bri193 wrote...

Yes STR is important, and this was always the primary stat for my THW builds. However, damage from STR is nothing unless you can hit, thus the need for enough DEX. DEX also help with defense and was a requirement for some skills...

Strength raises attack as well as damage at the same rate as dexterity. No, you don't need dexterity to hit. No, your feeling that "Sten just seemed to hit more often with dex" is not relevant.

Regarding stamina and fatigue:

Sustainables were the bread-and-butter of the THW in DA:O. I always had these running, so had to put a few points into Will Power for stamina and gave as much will buffing kit I could find that wasn't mage restricted. Fatigue was the bane of a THW, so kept them in medium armour. Wades Superior Dragonskin medium was the best THW armour in the game, and no, you did not NEED a high armour rating cos a THW is not a tank.. If your THW dies due to too many hits from mobs, then your tactics and build was wrong. Maintaining low hostility and Disengage were the escape route for a 2H'er, not a high AR...

Deathblow is really all you need to keep the stamina coming in, but if that fails there's plenty of willpower-boosting items in Origins. It takes a couple levels' point investment in willpower just to get a single extra ability use. Not a good ROI at all. But, sure, if you gimp your warrior by investing in stats like dexterity and willpower, I can understand that you might not have been getting the killing blows to make deathblow work.

Finally, consider this: you are claiming that 2h warriors were flimsy and only good as backup in Origins. Ok. Yrkoon (who has played several times as a 2h warrior and clearly knows more about them than you do) and myself and many others strongly dispute that. If you're the one claiming they suck, how are you going to post about what 2h warriors need? Obviously it didn't work for you. Why would you even argue with someone who did it differently to great effect?

You're putting the effect before the cause and getting it horribly wrong. You're saying "2h warriors are weak because you need to do x, y, and z," when the truth is "because I did x, y, and z, my 2h warriors were weak."

[Zhel_Ryn]

blothulfur wrote...
rogues take advantgae of situations, play it smart and cheat they don't out melee a fully trained zweihander in straight up combat.

Without taking any ability (or even just the few we do get to play with in demo), this seems the case. Remember though, there are a LOT of things we don't have access to in the demo. Sifting through the talent trees detailed here, Warriors have far more straight +damage buffs than rogues, with rogues heavily focused on +crit buffs. Can't really say how TH will feel mid game, let alone in the real game.

[RPGamer13]

But then: Rogues rely on DEX for their damage which means, investing in straight DEX means you do more damage and eventually will reach a chance of 100% critical hits without sacrificing damage.



If you want the same effect on a Warrior, you sacrifice damage for a chance to deal 100% critical hits. And also, since critical hits and damage increasing abilities increase damage by a percentage, you're losing more damage than you gain from dealing more critical hits.



On the Two-Handed Warrior in Origins: indomitable made the class setup better off at dealing more damage per second than a dual wield warrior against bosses and other enemoes that constantly knock you down otherwise. It effectively cut the wait time after a knockdown attack by at least 1/2 the animation it took to get back up.



Now we got STR to increase fortitude which gives us almost the same effect, but then Weapon and Shield warriors get a passive that eliminates the enemy's back attack bonuses on top of that... And back attack damage is a lot more serious now. This i so frustrating...



Okay, I got to stop overanalyzing things because I have brought myself down.

[Zhel_Ryn]

I probably cut too much of my post off thinking I was rambling, but looking through the trees, warrior seems to have higher +% altogether, as well as a higher quantity of buffs. Dropping since comparing the two isn't really the main focus of the topic.

I personally had no trouble with the TH in the demo (any class or build really), and will still be playing TH tank on nightmare for my first playthrough. As for the feel of it in the demo, I took Stonewall and Taunt, and the game auto picked warmonger abilities including Bravery. Had no issue holding aggro nor did it ever take large amounts of damage against any of the demo content. Again, demo was normal and pretty scarce in true display of the full game, but it was fun to me either way. In DA:O, my favorite character and build was a TH control tank, keeping mobs on the THW warden but at the same time on their rears. This was nightmare, and besides a few points in WIL for comfort, all points were in STR. I could have dropped those points in WIL by the mid/endgame as gear covered stamina issues far better by then.

Fun > Anything

Modifié par Zhel_Ryn, 25 février 2011 - 12:35 .

[Yrkoon]

bri193 wrote...

As I said, I played rogues in DA:O... My THW experience was from building Sten and Ogren to be useful party members. My builds for them  were awesome enough so that either one or the other was always in my party.
Having said that, I disagree with almost everything you wrote regarding a THW build.
Regarding stats:
Yes STR is important, and this was always the primary stat for my THW builds. However,  damage from STR is nothing unless you can hit, thus the need for enough DEX. DEX also help with defense and was a requirement for some skills... 

As already mentioned,  Strength gives you an exactly equal bonus to  your attack score  with 2h weapons that Dex does, so all you're doing here is gimping your two-hander's damage output by pumping points in to dex.

Regarding stamina and fatigue:
Sustainables were the bread-and-butter of the THW in DA:O.   I always had these running, so had to put a few points into Will Power for stamina and gave as much will buffing kit I could find that wasn't mage restricted. Fatigue was the bane of a THW, so kept them in medium armour. 

No.  They really aren't.  2handers only need ONE sustainable the entire game:  Indomitable, which happens to be a very inexpensive sustainable.  And if you've actually played the game in-depth with a 2hander, you'd notice one very interesting thing too:   the best 2h weapons  and the best massive armor  just happen to bestow massive Stamina boosts  (Chasind Great Maul gives you +75 stamina.  Nug Crusher gives you +100 Stamina.  Warden Commander boots give you +50 stamina, and the list goes on and on)

And of course, there's Death Blow... a warrior passive.... which makes stamina a complete non-issue the moment you acquire it.

 
I suspect that the real reason 2-handers are  consistantly underrated in DA:O is because many people just do not understand their unique mechanics.  they're not as intuitive or as easy to learn as dual wielders or S&S warriors.  And it doesn't help that the game gives you Sten and Oghren, who are so terribly built out of the box.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 25 février 2011 - 12:39 .

[Qset]

My first and 4th demo runthru's (just finished 4th a little while ago ) were THW and I agree with your points Maria if I compare that 1st run thru to my 2nd mage and 3rd archer, THW definitely felt a bit weaker and it seemed to take longer to get thru the fights compared to the other classes.

Hence I wanted to try THW again and on my 4th runthru THW was much better, I made some changes to the skills I took and tactics I used and found that taunt in particular worked wonders and made a big difference to the effectiveness. I would fire taunt as soon as it became ready and this meant that my AOE skills really tore thru a lot of targets, this together with the reach skill made a significant difference later on in the demo.

Plus with all those targets close on me, the other companions had a target rich environment as well. Will be interesting to see how it plays out with friendly fire on nightmare but a THW reaver holding agro at range with some missile and fire protection with mage/ranged AOE support sounds interesting.

Seems to be a surprising amount of complexity in the combat system, particularly the combo class moves aspect that will be fun to explore.

Modifié par Qset, 25 février 2011 - 12:57 .

[MetallicaRulez0]

I found the THW very fun, but I agree that they do pretty lackluster damage to single-targets. They really shine when they can cleave multiple targets, but this causes a lot of threat issues unless you can just kill them all with a party designed for AoE (multiple Mages/Archers/THW etc.).



I also found their cooldowns, particularly the Cleave ability (forgot the name) are too long. This seems to be an issue with every class though, so perhaps it balances itself out. If everyone's cooldowns suck, then you don't feel quite as bad about it heh.

[Sabresandiego]

Referring back to Stanley Woo's comments, I have a guess as to how a warrior when min/max was able to 1 shot a weak boss. Note: A shield warrior can do this just as well as a 2 hander. We dont know the specializations yet, but from what has been seen so far many abilities from origins are making a return in DA2 in an improved form. The only ability capable of 1 shotting in origins was Final Blow in the berserker tree, so Im going to assume that was the ability which was doing this.

1. Max out willpower with just enough str so you can hit targets (1 str 2 wil)
2. Mage casts death hex on boss (guarantee crit)
3. Warrior buffed by companion auras
4. Warrior activates cleave/claymore = +100% damage
5. At max stamina warrior uses Final Blow

That gives us a guaranteed crit, 200% damage, maximum stamina--->damage conversion Final Blow that is also boosted by any companion auras. Perhaps the reaver spec could boost this combo even further. This is all just a guess by the way, but it sounds powerful! Perhaps its balanced by the fact that aside from 1 shotting bosses the warrior wouldnt be anything special? Or maybe they put a cap on the percentage of stamina final blow can use, or maybe final blow isnt even in the game and im completely wrong.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 25 février 2011 - 08:16 .

[Yrkoon]

Sabresandiego wrote...

Referring back to Stanley Woo's comments, I have a guess as to how a warrior when min/max was able to 1 shot a weak boss. Note: A shield warrior can do this just as well as a 2 hander. We dont know the specializations yet, but from what has been seen so far many abilities from origins are making a return in DA2 in an improved form. The only ability capable of 1 shotting in origins was Final Blow in the berserker tree, so Im going to assume that was the ability which was doing this.

1. Max out willpower with just enough str so you can hit targets (1 str 2 wil)
2. Mage casts death hex on boss (guarantee crit)
3. Warrior buffed by companion auras
4. Warrior activates cleave/claymore = +100% damage
5. At max stamina warrior uses Final Blow

That gives us a guaranteed crit, 200% damage, maximum stamina--->damage conversion Final Blow that is also boosted by any companion auras. Perhaps the reaver spec could boost this combo even further. This is all just a guess by the way, but it sounds powerful! Perhaps its balanced by the fact that aside from 1 shotting bosses the warrior wouldnt be anything special? Or maybe they put a cap on the percentage of stamina final blow can use, or maybe final blow isnt even in the game and im completely wrong.

This seems like a very logical explanation to Woo's comment.  I'll also add that it's safe to assume that the warrior doing the one-shotting probably also  loaded up on  weapon/gear  that give bonusses to critical damage, in addition to any points the warrior spent on cunning. 

See, this is exactly what made warriors so darn powerful in Awakening.  You could have anders/velanna spam  debuffs on a target, then you could have your warrior  loaded up with enough gear and talents to boost critical damage  beyond 200%.  So your criticals   against that debuffed target ended up  doing  600+ damage or more

Modifié par Yrkoon, 26 février 2011 - 05:39 .

[Melgrimm]

Maria Caliban wrote...

When I play a two-handed warrior, I feel as though I'm being punished for not playing the right class.

Too bad Arcane Warrior isn't there so you could make an easy choice based on what's most powerful, right?

[Maria Caliban]

Melgrimm wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

When I play a two-handed warrior, I feel as though I'm being punished for not playing the right class.

Too bad Arcane Warrior isn't there so you could make an easy choice based on what's most powerful, right?

Right. Because if you dislike how your PC feels weak and doesn't have a niche, it means you want to play a stupidly OP class that makes other classes redundant. There's no middle ground at all.

[ViSeiRa]

Sabresandiego wrote...

Referring back to Stanley Woo's comments, I have a guess as to how a warrior when min/max was able to 1 shot a weak boss. Note: A shield warrior can do this just as well as a 2 hander. We dont know the specializations yet, but from what has been seen so far many abilities from origins are making a return in DA2 in an improved form. The only ability capable of 1 shotting in origins was Final Blow in the berserker tree, so Im going to assume that was the ability which was doing this.

1. Max out willpower with just enough str so you can hit targets (1 str 2 wil)
2. Mage casts death hex on boss (guarantee crit)
3. Warrior buffed by companion auras
4. Warrior activates cleave/claymore = +100% damage
5. At max stamina warrior uses Final Blow

That gives us a guaranteed crit, 200% damage, maximum stamina--->damage conversion Final Blow that is also boosted by any companion auras. Perhaps the reaver spec could boost this combo even further. This is all just a guess by the way, but it sounds powerful! Perhaps its balanced by the fact that aside from 1 shotting bosses the warrior wouldnt be anything special? Or maybe they put a cap on the percentage of stamina final blow can use, or maybe final blow isnt even in the game and im completely wrong.

I used to do this with Origins, minus the whole cleave thing, also I used Blood Frenzy, let the enemy hit my warrior, and when I reach minimum health I used Final Blow, and healed him fast afterwards... there are many ways to do this, and that's why I can't wait to see how the specializations turn out, especially Reaver.

[Sabresandiego]

You also have to remember that Peter is one of the main devs involved with balancing the game, and he did not use a 2 handed warrior in his playthrough. He used an Archer that had backup dual wield, with assasin and duelist specs. Oddly enough this was the strongest class in the demo. Not saying that hes biased, as he has done an awesome job with the game, but it is an odd coincidence that archers were so good. Mike Laidlaw even mentioned archers and rogues as his favorite class. Even Chris Priestly says he normally plays a warrior, but in this game he liked mage. I havent heard a single dev state that they thought warrior was their favorite class.

Activities that are high risk, high reward are usually regarded as more fun by people. classes that fit that description are mage and rogue. A tank that hardly deals damage, and hardly takes damage has little risk and little reward, and for the majority of people is less exciting. I personally play warriors in a way which makes them a high risk, high reward class by focusing solely on offensive output.

I believe most successful future RPG's will move away from the holy trinity of tank, dps, healer considering its fairly obvious that the majority of the population finds the DPS role to be the most fun (which is why you always see looking for tank, looking for healing in MMO's). For the people that do enjoy tanking and healing, these roles should be integrated into every class, so that every class can perform damage, healing, and damage protection at the same time but using differing methods. Guild Wars 2 is using this philosophy and looks to be a great game.

Modifié par Sabresandiego, 26 février 2011 - 08:24 .