132 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

Ninotchka wrote...

I mean that he turned on me and sided with Taliesen (sp?) which infuriated me to no end.

Maybe it was a bug. I didn't patch my game for a month or so after I initially installed it.  In my experience, patching can cause bigger problems, at least with some other games cough*thesims3*cough

It can happen, actually, if you raise his approval with gifts for the most part, and do not have the conversation with him that he initiates at 26+.  

[Wulfram]

ejoslin wrote...

It only comes up in one conversation, though; most are not about that at all.  And yeh, if you're judgemental of him, then you will run into problems -- just like, well, most people.

Most of the early conversations are about his career as an assassin.  And most people don't kill you because you didn't agree with them when they said it was fun killing people.

[Ninotchka]

ejoslin wrote...

Ninotchka wrote...

I mean that he turned on me and sided with Taliesen (sp?) which infuriated me to no end.

Maybe it was a bug. I didn't patch my game for a month or so after I initially installed it.  In my experience, patching can cause bigger problems, at least with some other games cough*thesims3*cough

It can happen, actually, if you raise his approval with gifts for the most part, and do not have the conversation with him that he initiates at 26+.  

That would have required a bit of metagaming to avoid though. And I didn't metagame my first playthrough until the (nausea-inducing) Landsmeet drama *guilty look*

Anyway, I am going to try to overcome my prejudice(s) against him and give him another chance in my next playthrough...:innocent:

[HolyAvenger]

Zev is alright, I'm playing through the romance with him now, but he'll never be one of my favourite DA characters.

[Chigusa]

Wulfram wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

It only comes up in one conversation, though; most are not about that at all.  And yeh, if you're judgemental of him, then you will run into problems -- just like, well, most people.

Most of the early conversations are about his career as an assassin.  And most people don't kill you because you didn't agree with them when they said it was fun killing people.

Not nowadays.
But in ancient times murder carried another moral value.

And yes, if you treat someone like **** telling him he's a monster etc, that person will likely choose to pass his time with someone else. In this case, this someone else is the one who Zevran trusts more than you,  and the one who kills for money just like him. He failed in his first attempt and you treat him like ****. It's perfectly natural that your Pc remains only a target, and that Zevran prefers Taliesin's company, as Taliesin doesn't judge him or call him monster.

[Verly]

I can see almost any origin agreeing with him somewhat on "some people deserve to die"



spoilers:



as a human noble you might want Howe dead

as a city elf there is vaghen

as a dalish elf you could have killed the humans at the beginning

as a dwarf commoner you kill your boss

as a dwarf noble you could have killed your older brother/or might want to do some harm to your younger brother.



the man was raised in a brothel and then bought at 7 to only think of killing so yeah, he doesn't think what he does is wrong. he thinks of it as a skill.. so calling him a murdering murderer who murders yeah, he's offended......Lelianna is no different. she also seduced and killed people as a bard, but hardly anyone has a problem with her. only Zev. (I actually like them both very much)

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Wulfram wrote...

Most of the early conversations are about his career as an assassin.  And most people don't kill you because you didn't agree with them when they said it was fun killing people.

Umm...I didn't agree that it was fun killing people, and he never turned on me. IIRC you only have a discussion about killing = enjoyable *once*, so you must have disagreed with more than that (possibly more rudely than you had to).

FWIW, ejo makes a good point about being judgemental. There are usually many ways to disagree with characters without calling them names, or at least be non-committal. Saying things like, "That's disgusting! You're a murderer!" is quite different from "I don't enjoy bloodshed," for instance.

But...Wynne turns on you for being a Blood Mage. Leliana turns on you for defiling a sacred relic. Sten can turn on you for chasing fairy tales. Shale turns on you for siding with Branka. Oghren can turn on you if his approval hits -100. Why is Zevran turning on you so horrible in comparison?

[Ninotchka]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

But...Wynne turns on you for being a Blood Mage. Leliana turns on you for defiling a sacred relic. Sten can turn on you for chasing fairy tales. Shale turns on you for siding with Branka. Oghren can turn on you if his approval hits -100. Why is Zevran turning on you so horrible in comparison?

I can't speak for others, but I found it infuriating because it's was the second time  he tried to kill me (and my party)....this is regardless of the fact that the first time he attempted to, he was hired to and therefore, shouldn't be taken personally.
I, somehow, did take it personally

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Well he *is* an assassin But I'm curious why you'd take a second attempt from a guy who was initially hired to kill you (and you presumably haven't tried to befriend) as personally as, say, Leliana, who can attack you even if she's your bestest friend/lover. Zevran, in comparison, will not betray you if he cares for you.



It's curious, because the Zevran/Taliesen face-off is the one *everyone* sees (provided Zev is recruited). The other cases of NPCs turning on you only happen if you have those characters with you; Zevran will appear for it even if he wasn't in the party. So he gets painted as the prime betrayer in the party because he's the one most players experience.



I don't mind people (or people's characters ) taking it personally when he 'tries' to kill you, it's just interesting to me that people are more inclined to get angry at Zevran than other members of the party who will *also* attack the PC if the right circumstances are met.

[ejoslin]

Ninotchka wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Ninotchka wrote...

I mean that he turned on me and sided with Taliesen (sp?) which infuriated me to no end.

Maybe it was a bug. I didn't patch my game for a month or so after I initially installed it.  In my experience, patching can cause bigger problems, at least with some other games cough*thesims3*cough

It can happen, actually, if you raise his approval with gifts for the most part, and do not have the conversation with him that he initiates at 26+.  

That would have required a bit of metagaming to avoid though. And I didn't metagame my first playthrough until the (nausea-inducing) Landsmeet drama *guilty look*

Anyway, I am going to try to overcome my prejudice(s) against him and give him another chance in my next playthrough...:innocent:

How is it metagaming needing to talk to a character?  I was just saying the way it could be possible for his approval to be that high and still have him turn.  When he hits 26+ he has a talk with the warden but you do have to click on him, and he becomes "warm" or, if romanced, "Interested."  

I think if you have an assassin in your party, it makes sense to talk to him.

[Ninotchka]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Well he *is* an assassin But I'm curious why you'd take a second attempt from a guy who was initially hired to kill you (and you presumably haven't tried to befriend) as personally as, say, Leliana, who can attack you even if she's your bestest friend/lover. Zevran, in comparison, will not betray you if he cares for you.

I saw that cut scene where Loghain hired him so I understood I was dealing with an assassin. The humour and awful artificial Spanish accent didn't sway me, but I let him live and recruited him because it just felt like the right thing to do at the time. I remember giving him gifts but you're right I don't think I proactively pursued a friendship based on conversations as well. But I also didn't go out of my way to offend him in anyway so it was surprising for him to turn on me again with an approval rating of +61.

It's curious, because the Zevran/Taliesen face-off is the one *everyone* sees (provided Zev is recruited). The other cases of NPCs turning on you only happen if you have those characters with you; Zevran will appear for it even if he wasn't in the party. So he gets painted as the prime betrayer in the party because he's the one most players experience.

I don't mind people (or people's characters ) taking it personally when he 'tries' to kill you, it's just interesting to me that people are more inclined to get angry at Zevran than other members of the party who will *also* attack the PC if the right circumstances are met.

I don't know, I've seen people get just as passionately angry/offended at Wynne because she also attempts to kill you twice, if all the right conditions are met. But with Zevran that first condition is created by Loghain's contract, which might add to the offense...

[Ninotchka]

ejoslin wrote...

How is it metagaming needing to talk to a character?  I was just saying the way it could be possible for his approval to be that high and still have him turn.  When he hits 26+ he has a talk with the warden but you do have to click on him, and he becomes "warm" or, if romanced, "Interested."  

I think if you have an assassin in your party, it makes sense to talk to him.

How was I supposed to know this in my first/second playthrough? I guess we all make noobish mistakes but I didn't know that if I didn't talk to him (as much as a few of the others) at any point through the game, that he would eventually turn on me.  Also as I stated in an above post, I did not in anyway go out of my way to offend him.

Yes, you make a very wise point about him being an assassin in the party, but back then I was too busy being 'in lurve' with Alistair to be paranoid about that I know better now.

[Addai]

Verly wrote...

I can see almost any origin agreeing with him somewhat on "some people deserve to die"

Yes, exactly.  My Wardens rarely have trouble on that one.

I don't perceive Zevran to be looking for you to approve of his past life in those conversations.  You get some of the more interesting conversations if you don't pick the "I'm cool with murder" options.  The one that comes to mind is asking him if he has killed any innocents.  You might get a -1 or something, but with other conversations and gifts, this is nothing.  What he doesn't like is to be patronized, or for you to suggest he is a slave.  And obviously he responds well to flirtatiousness.

But if he turns on you, he turns on you. That's how you were roleplaying it, even if you didn't see it coming.  My first Warden barely talked to him and she got the loyalty she deserved.  He doesn't expect to win- he expects to die- so I can't hate him even for turning on the Warden.  His whole friendship as well as romance arc is all the more interesting for the fact that he's a man on the edge.

[ejoslin]

Ninotchka wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

How is it metagaming needing to talk to a character?  I was just saying the way it could be possible for his approval to be that high and still have him turn.  When he hits 26+ he has a talk with the warden but you do have to click on him, and he becomes "warm" or, if romanced, "Interested."  

I think if you have an assassin in your party, it makes sense to talk to him.

How was I supposed to know this in my first/second playthrough? I guess we all make noobish mistakes but I didn't know that if I didn't talk to him (as much as a few of the others) at any point through the game, that he would eventually turn on me.  Also as I stated in an above post, I did not in anyway go out of my way to offend him.

Yes, you make a very wise point about him being an assassin in the party, but back then I was too busy being 'in lurve' with Alistair to be paranoid about that I know better now.

I'm not criticising you; it's just that I don't think it's metagaming that you need to talk to your companions.  That he betrays you if you don't is an interesting plot twist.  There were plenty of things in my first playthrough that just not go as planned.  That's what I love most abou the game -- that sometimes the characters do what they're going to do, no matter what your character does or says (heh, my city elf in love with Alistair, nuff said, amazing and heartbreaking).

Edit: I'm not even sure that that conversation is necessary.  It's just the one thing I can think of that could cause that to happen -- the scene itself is not bugged at all.  It's completely approval based, however.  In truth, my first thought would be that his approval was lower than you thought.  But perhaps that conversation is necessary for his status to turn to warm.  I'm not sure!

Second edit: I checked the code, the conversation is NOT necessary.  Which makes me think that perhaps his approval was lower.  61, either romanced or not, would not lead to a betrayal.

Modifié par ejoslin, 25 février 2011 - 03:56 .

[Ninotchka]

ejoslin wrote...

Ninotchka wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

How is it metagaming needing to talk to a character?  I was just saying the way it could be possible for his approval to be that high and still have him turn.  When he hits 26+ he has a talk with the warden but you do have to click on him, and he becomes "warm" or, if romanced, "Interested."  

I think if you have an assassin in your party, it makes sense to talk to him.

How was I supposed to know this in my first/second playthrough? I guess we all make noobish mistakes but I didn't know that if I didn't talk to him (as much as a few of the others) at any point through the game, that he would eventually turn on me.  Also as I stated in an above post, I did not in anyway go out of my way to offend him.

Yes, you make a very wise point about him being an assassin in the party, but back then I was too busy being 'in lurve' with Alistair to be paranoid about that I know better now.

I'm not criticising you; it's just that I don't think it's metagaming that you need to talk to your companions.  That he betrays you if you don't is an interesting plot twist.  There were plenty of things in my first playthrough that just not go as planned.  That's what I love most abou the game -- that sometimes the characters do what they're going to do, no matter what your character does or says (heh, my city elf in love with Alistair, nuff said, amazing and heartbreaking).

Edit: I'm not even sure that that conversation is necessary.  It's just the one thing I can think of that could cause that to happen -- the scene itself is not bugged at all.  It's completely approval based, however.  In truth, my first thought would be that his approval was lower than you thought.  But perhaps that conversation is necessary for his status to turn to warm.  I'm not sure!

Second edit: I checked the code, the conversation is NOT necessary.  Which makes me think that perhaps his approval was lower.  61, either romanced or not, would not lead to a betrayal.

Strange that, I remember his approval was 61 or so. I could have made a mistake but I remembered this in regards to Zevran so specifically and poignantly, hence my ire...

But you now have the iron-clad evidence so I clearly must have had my wires crossed - apologies for all the ranting. I feel like such an idiot now lol

*exits, stage left*

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Ranting is often good for the soul XD

[sylvanaerie]

Zevran will also respond well to compassion. Man has had a hard hard life, probably more so than any of the other companions. Raised in a ****house after his birth killed his mother, sold as a slave at 7 to a group of killers who know how to torture and train children to murder and then told he was nothing all his life, nothing that mattered, that the people he cared about were nothing.

You don't have to be a 'murder cheerleader' to get on his good side or romance him and keep him from turning on you in Denerim. Just treat him with kindness and diplomacy. My previous playthrough I finally did the scene with him at 14 approval since I planned on finally seeing that scene. It was awful. Zev is my second favorite companion, and it was hard as hell staying away form him for that PT but it was something I had never done before (and won't do again). For him to turn at 60+ had to be a glitch, I've had him stay with me at lower levels of approval than that.

Zev is always my PC's BFF, he makes a wonderful friend once you do befriend him, and is one of the more loyal members of your party if you can get his approval up. It's a really good feeling when you hit that alley in Denerim and he's there at your side fighting Taliesan. I usually choose the "over my dead body" option and he goes all 'protective' on me. And this at just "warm" approval since he won't switch to 'friend' till after the encounter.

[sevalaricgirl]

Zev is one of my favorite characters. I love him. This playthrough, 17th, I told him that it was okay for him to be interested in me and wish that there was an easy way to put him down because in reality it doesn't matter that someone is interested in you if they don't take it too far. It was funny the conversation between him and Alistair. -20 though when I told Zev that we should end it. It really hurt his feelings so I had to give him some gifts. I do take him everywhere with me. He's really funny and I have him morphed so he's not the uggo vanilla Zev. He's very cute now.

[Ryzaki]

I don't know. I played a non nonsense but somewhat sympathetic character and he still turned on me. /shrugs.

[Zjarcal]

I do wish he would only turn on you if he was past the "hostile" threshold. That would make his betrayal look less iffy.



Mind you this is never an issue for me as I always get his "and I'm not gonna let that happen" line, which has got to be one of my favorite lines in the game.

[Ryzaki]

Zjarcal wrote...

I do wish he would only turn on you if he was past the "hostile" threshold. That would make his betrayal look less iffy.

Mind you this is never an issue for me as I always get his "and I'm not gonna let that happen" line, which has got to be one of my favorite lines in the game.

'

Yeah that's what annoys me. If he only betrayed when hostile and walked off at neutral I wouldn't mind. 

Though yes that line s pretty epic. 

If only I didn't feel like I was paying him lip service to get to it. 

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

You do have to remember that the point where he betrays you is where he's choosing between you and the only person he really considered a friend (and brother) in the Crows. Even if he doesn't turn against you he can decide to walk away and not lift a hand against his old friend.



So it's not so simple a matter of whether or not he hates/is hostile towards the PC, but whether or not you've given him a reason to consider you as much a friend as Taliesen was, or better.

[ejoslin]

He only leaves the fight if in a romance -- Taliesen was more than a friend. They were lovers. If he's above 26 (interested) but at 70 (care) or lower is when he'll walk away. It's between his old lover/friend/whatever and his new one -- last time he made a choice between two lovers was pretty disastrous for him. Once he hits 71+ (adore) there's no question for him.



Though if not romanced, he'll fight for his friend no matter what -- that's 26+ (warm).

[Jenova65]

He has never turned on me once, but I am a very diligent conversationalist with all party members, I bother them til they get sick of the *sound* of my mute character's voice, lol.

He is one of my favourites, I never use Leliana once I have Zev, he amuses and is useful, she just winds me up a bit. She reminds me of Liara in that she takes anything I say as a sign that I fancy her

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

He only leaves the fight if in a romance -- Taliesen was more than a friend. They were lovers. If he's above 26 (interested) but at 70 (care) or lower is when he'll walk away. It's between his old lover/friend/whatever and his new one -- last time he made a choice between two lovers was pretty disastrous for him. Once he hits 71+ (adore) there's no question for him.

Though if not romanced, he'll fight for his friend no matter what -- that's 26+ (warm).

I thought he would stay if friended and very high approval?  It's pretty hard to get either way- his approval shoots up really fast if romanced.  I had to deliberately hold out on the plot gifts to get it.

You also have to not choose the line "Zevran doesn't need the Crows anymore."  He stays if you say that.

BTW I made some videos of him leaving and the camp dialogue after.