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[Jedi Master of Orion]

My brother told me he's more likley to turn on a human noble. I don't know if it's true, but on my human noble playthrough he turned on me at that point. I had his reputation up to around 26 or so, but he was still neutral. I eventually decided it was for te best. We weren't really getting along at first but as it turned out he betrayed me just as I was starting to get used to him.

Later I found out how close I was to getting him up to friendly. One of his gifts was in the Anvil of the Void room but I didn't take it because my pack was full. Another was in Haven but i didn't take it from a chest because I was trying to be diplomatic to the Haven townsfolk and didn't enter that guy's private room, which forces me to kill him and thereby allows me to take the stuff from his locked chest.

In my second run as a Dalish Elf I had his reputation up to friendly and he joined forces with me. It was still around in the 30s though. I finally got him up to friendly by elliminating the slavers.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 26 février 2011 - 02:18 .

[ejoslin]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

My brother told me he's more likley to turn on a human noble. I don't know if it's true, but on my human noble playthrough he turned on me at that point. I had his reputation up to around 26 or so, but he was still neutral. I eventually decided it was for te best. We weren't really getting along at first but as it turned out he betrayed me just as I was starting to get used to him.

Later I found out how close I was to getting him up to friendly. One of his gifts was in the Anvil of the Void room but I didn't take it because my pack was full. Another was in Haven but i didn't take it from a chest because I was trying to be diplomatic to the Haven townsfolk and didn't enter that guy's private room, which forces me to kill him and thereby allows me to take the stuff from his locked chest.

In my second run as a Dalish Elf I had his reputation up to friendly and he joined forces with me. It was still around in the 30s though. I finally got him up to friendly by elliminating the slavers.

It has nothing to do with origin at all.  It is completely approval based.  If Zevran is warm (26+) or adore (71+) he will fight by the warden's side no matter what.  If he is interested (26+) or care (51+) he may leave the fight though there is a response where he will stay.  However, he will be waiting for the warden at camp, and he explains why he left if you ask.

If he betrayed you, your approval was either neutral or hostile (25 or lower).  This particular scene is not bugged.

Modifié par ejoslin, 26 février 2011 - 01:28 .

[ejoslin]

Addai67 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

He only leaves the fight if in a romance -- Taliesen was more than a friend. They were lovers. If he's above 26 (interested) but at 70 (care) or lower is when he'll walk away. It's between his old lover/friend/whatever and his new one -- last time he made a choice between two lovers was pretty disastrous for him. Once he hits 71+ (adore) there's no question for him.

Though if not romanced, he'll fight for his friend no matter what -- that's 26+ (warm).

I thought he would stay if friended and very high approval?  It's pretty hard to get either way- his approval shoots up really fast if romanced.  I had to deliberately hold out on the plot gifts to get it.

You also have to not choose the line "Zevran doesn't need the Crows anymore."  He stays if you say that.

BTW I made some videos of him leaving and the camp dialogue after.

I did say he'd stay with his friend no matter what and the approval he needs to be at.  I know about the line about not needing the crows  I was just sayign the circumstance where he would leave, but you're right, if you say that line he will fight as well.

[Jenova65]

ejoslin wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

He only leaves the fight if in a romance -- Taliesen was more than a friend. They were lovers. If he's above 26 (interested) but at 70 (care) or lower is when he'll walk away. It's between his old lover/friend/whatever and his new one -- last time he made a choice between two lovers was pretty disastrous for him. Once he hits 71+ (adore) there's no question for him.

Though if not romanced, he'll fight for his friend no matter what -- that's 26+ (warm).

I thought he would stay if friended and very high approval?  It's pretty hard to get either way- his approval shoots up really fast if romanced.  I had to deliberately hold out on the plot gifts to get it.

You also have to not choose the line "Zevran doesn't need the Crows anymore."  He stays if you say that.

BTW I made some videos of him leaving and the camp dialogue after.

I did say he'd stay with his friend no matter what and the approval he needs to be at.  I know about the line about not needing the crows  I was just sayign the circumstance where he would leave, but you're right, if you say that line he will fight as well.

Your Zev faq is very interesting BTW, I had a good read. I never manage to romance him cos I stupidly love Alistair. I am wondering if there is a way to get him to dump my mage because of duty and then pick up with Zevran after that? Would you know? I have held back on the gloves and boots because they trigger the massage conversation.... and I don't want to do that yet.... 

[USArmyParatrooper]

Just throwing it out there... Zev's betrayal is unique because he's the only one who turns on you without cause. If we run down the list Leliana turns on you if you perform the ultimate offense to her religion, Wynne when you turn to a craft that she truly believes is evil, etc.

With Zev betraying you is his *default* behavior. You have to take proactive action to get his approval high enough so he doesn't.

[Chigusa]

Jenova65 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

He only leaves the fight if in a romance -- Taliesen was more than a friend. They were lovers. If he's above 26 (interested) but at 70 (care) or lower is when he'll walk away. It's between his old lover/friend/whatever and his new one -- last time he made a choice between two lovers was pretty disastrous for him. Once he hits 71+ (adore) there's no question for him.

Though if not romanced, he'll fight for his friend no matter what -- that's 26+ (warm).

I thought he would stay if friended and very high approval?  It's pretty hard to get either way- his approval shoots up really fast if romanced.  I had to deliberately hold out on the plot gifts to get it.

You also have to not choose the line "Zevran doesn't need the Crows anymore."  He stays if you say that.

BTW I made some videos of him leaving and the camp dialogue after.

I did say he'd stay with his friend no matter what and the approval he needs to be at.  I know about the line about not needing the crows  I was just sayign the circumstance where he would leave, but you're right, if you say that line he will fight as well.

Your Zev faq is very interesting BTW, I had a good read. I never manage to romance him cos I stupidly love Alistair. I am wondering if there is a way to get him to dump my mage because of duty and then pick up with Zevran after that? Would you know? I have held back on the gloves and boots because they trigger the massage conversation.... and I don't want to do that yet.... 

Alistair will dump your mage after the Landsmeet if you've not hardened him and he's going to become king.
If hardened you can convince him to have you as his mistress.

Yes, there's a way to pick Zev after the Landsmeet dumping, but if you want to turn the Zev romance to love you have to start the romance before the Taliesen encounter (which is after the calling of the Landsmeet and triggers the first time you walk around in Denerim).If course starting the romance with Zev at 71+ will trigger jealousy conversations with both Ali and Zev (if they're both at 71+), but I think you can avoid it (maybe, I don't know if they trigger automatically or you have to click on them)by starting the Zev romance right before the Taliesen encounter. I think you can trigger Taliesen even after all the Anora deal, right before the Landsmeet. Then, you'll leave for the Landsmeet and the next conversation (automatically triggered)with Alistair is the one in which the PC is dumped.
Then after the Landsmeet, if 71+, Zev will offer the massage.

I think it could work like that, someone correct me if I'm wrong. 
The issue is, if you don't avoid jealousy talks they'll force you to make a choice and you can only dump Ali or Zev, not be dumped.

But the expert in Zevran romance here is ejoslin, I think she'll confirm or not my opinion, and you can trust her more than me as I played only once for now

[ejoslin]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

Just throwing it out there... Zev's betrayal is unique because he's the only one who turns on you without cause. If we run down the list Leliana turns on you if you perform the ultimate offense to her religion, Wynne when you turn to a craft that she truly believes is evil, etc.

With Zev betraying you is his *default* behavior. You have to take proactive action to get his approval high enough so he doesn't.

You're absolutely right.  If you don't befriend your assassin, the man who was hired to kill you, and who will be tortured and given a slow painful death if he doesn't kill you and is caught by the crows, he will try to kill you again.

Go figure.

Edit: *grin* To respond to a different post, WHEN you start the romance with Zevran is irrelevant.  If you want to get his final declaration of feelings, though, you have to start it at a time when you can still go to camp.  My first playthrough (unspoiled) that's exactly what I did.  When Alistair dumped my poor city elf, she took up with Zevran, and an amazing ending.

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 février 2011 - 04:24 .

[Chigusa]

So, off-topic only once: when are you prevented from going to the camp? I remember I went to the camp even right before heading to the final battle(I mean before Morrigan offer), so
I guess you can go to the camp until you head to the final battle and meet Eamon Anora etc who will tell you that the battle will take place the next morning.

[Jenova65]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

Just throwing it out there... Zev's betrayal is unique because he's the only one who turns on you without cause. If we run down the list Leliana turns on you if you perform the ultimate offense to her religion, Wynne when you turn to a craft that she truly believes is evil, etc.

With Zev betraying you is his *default* behavior. You have to take proactive action to get his approval high enough so he doesn't.

But Zevran can also be the most fiercely loyal, if you treat him right. He is always my BFF........ Alistair (who I love) waltzes off never to be seen again if I show mercy to Loghain, which would be the option for my very righteous warden and killing Loghain to keep Alistair is rotten  

[Jenova65]

Chigusa wrote...

Jenova65 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

He only leaves the fight if in a romance -- Taliesen was more than a friend. They were lovers. If he's above 26 (interested) but at 70 (care) or lower is when he'll walk away. It's between his old lover/friend/whatever and his new one -- last time he made a choice between two lovers was pretty disastrous for him. Once he hits 71+ (adore) there's no question for him.

Though if not romanced, he'll fight for his friend no matter what -- that's 26+ (warm).

I thought he would stay if friended and very high approval?  It's pretty hard to get either way- his approval shoots up really fast if romanced.  I had to deliberately hold out on the plot gifts to get it.

You also have to not choose the line "Zevran doesn't need the Crows anymore."  He stays if you say that.

BTW I made some videos of him leaving and the camp dialogue after.

I did say he'd stay with his friend no matter what and the approval he needs to be at.  I know about the line about not needing the crows  I was just sayign the circumstance where he would leave, but you're right, if you say that line he will fight as well.

Your Zev faq is very interesting BTW, I had a good read. I never manage to romance him cos I stupidly love Alistair. I am wondering if there is a way to get him to dump my mage because of duty and then pick up with Zevran after that? Would you know? I have held back on the gloves and boots because they trigger the massage conversation.... and I don't want to do that yet.... 

Alistair will dump your mage after the Landsmeet if you've not hardened him and he's going to become king.
If hardened you can convince him to have you as his mistress.

Yes, there's a way to pick Zev after the Landsmeet dumping, but if you want to turn the Zev romance to love you have to start the romance before the Taliesen encounter (which is after the calling of the Landsmeet and triggers the first time you walk around in Denerim).If course starting the romance with Zev at 71+ will trigger jealousy conversations with both Ali and Zev (if they're both at 71+), but I think you can avoid it (maybe, I don't know if they trigger automatically or you have to click on them)by starting the Zev romance right before the Taliesen encounter. I think you can trigger Taliesen even after all the Anora deal, right before the Landsmeet. Then, you'll leave for the Landsmeet and the next conversation (automatically triggered)with Alistair is the one in which the PC is dumped.
Then after the Landsmeet, if 71+, Zev will offer the massage.

I think it could work like that, someone correct me if I'm wrong. 
The issue is, if you don't avoid jealousy talks they'll force you to make a choice and you can only dump Ali or Zev, not be dumped.

But the expert in Zevran romance here is ejoslin, I think she'll confirm or not my opinion, and you can trust her more than me as I played only once for now

Thank you 

[Jenova65]

ejoslin wrote...

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

Just throwing it out there... Zev's betrayal is unique because he's the only one who turns on you without cause. If we run down the list Leliana turns on you if you perform the ultimate offense to her religion, Wynne when you turn to a craft that she truly believes is evil, etc.

With Zev betraying you is his *default* behavior. You have to take proactive action to get his approval high enough so he doesn't.

You're absolutely right.  If you don't befriend your assassin, the man who was hired to kill you, and who will be tortured and given a slow painful death if he doesn't kill you and is caught by the crows, he will try to kill you again.

Go figure.

Edit: *grin* To respond to a different post, WHEN you start the romance with Zevran is irrelevant.  If you want to get his final declaration of feelings, though, you have to start it at a time when you can still go to camp.  My first playthrough (unspoiled) that's exactly what I did.  When Alistair dumped my poor city elf, she took up with Zevran, and an amazing ending.

I can go to camp right after the Landsmeet can't I? (I am sure I did when I spared Loghain) so I can start it then and just not have Zev in my party until I have spoken to him and given him the special meaning gifts and then go back to Denerim to trigger Taliesan before going to Redcliff? That's doable, right? 

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Yes, you can go to camp after Landsmeet. Just don't go straight to Redcliffe

[ejoslin]

Jenova65 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

Just throwing it out there... Zev's betrayal is unique because he's the only one who turns on you without cause. If we run down the list Leliana turns on you if you perform the ultimate offense to her religion, Wynne when you turn to a craft that she truly believes is evil, etc.

With Zev betraying you is his *default* behavior. You have to take proactive action to get his approval high enough so he doesn't.

You're absolutely right.  If you don't befriend your assassin, the man who was hired to kill you, and who will be tortured and given a slow painful death if he doesn't kill you and is caught by the crows, he will try to kill you again.

Go figure.

Edit: *grin* To respond to a different post, WHEN you start the romance with Zevran is irrelevant.  If you want to get his final declaration of feelings, though, you have to start it at a time when you can still go to camp.  My first playthrough (unspoiled) that's exactly what I did.  When Alistair dumped my poor city elf, she took up with Zevran, and an amazing ending.

I can go to camp right after the Landsmeet can't I? (I am sure I did when I spared Loghain) so I can start it then and just not have Zev in my party until I have spoken to him and given him the special meaning gifts and then go back to Denerim to trigger Taliesan before going to Redcliff? That's doable, right? 

You'll trigger Taliesen as soon as the landsmeet is called and you travel the map.  Don't worry about it.  His status can still update to love (in fact, you'll avoid a common bug that can cause his romance to not update to love -- in an unmodded game, if you get a public kiss from him right after Taliesen, you got hit by the bug).  Sometimes the scene doesn't trigger immediately after killing Taliesen; if it doesn't, clicking on Zevran should get it to trigger (this is needed to get him to friendly/love eligible).

However, be aware that there is a follow up conversation that can unset this flag.  He'll want to talk about friendship -- if you rebuff him, tell him that you're not friends or you just did what you had to do, he'll go back to warm or adore/care/interested and that's it.

Zevran's romance is pretty bugged, though.  Be aware that if you're not using mods, he gives the wrong dialog at the denerim city gates if you take him with you.  Also be aware of the bug I mentioned before.

His romance really does work better if it's done slowly, but honestly, it's not so bad if done quickly.  But you do get an awful lot of romance dialog all at once, which is weird.

[Jenova65]

I'm playing on 360, is that bugged too? And thanks for the help, I do love Zev, I just find it impossible to avoid the romance dialogue with Alistair........... And can't possibly crush him....... :/
And thanks Shadow Of Light Dragon, that's what I thought on that bit...

[ColaQueen]

@USAPT Zev's betrayal is completely understandable if you haven't either befriended him or romanced him. He has no real loyality to you. Sure you spared him, but as someone who walks the fine edge of morality he has no reason NOT to betray you. In fact if he didn't it would be out of character or a bit odd. He only owes you his life in so far as it will keep him from getting killed by the Crows for a while till he can think of a way out of the situation. Taliesian presents him with that opportunity. Or you can look it as a way for him finally to get the justice he feels he deserves for having killed Rinna so mercilessly. By betraying someone who was kind to him, then murdering him is justifiable and so he will finally get the release from life he craves.

It's only through friendship or romance you can effect a real change in his personality enough to realise there are things in life than being an assasin and loyalty to the Crows and also give him something to live for.

[HolyAvenger]

If you're not gonna be friends him, finish him off at the ambush. That's what my ruthless Wardens do.

[Verly]

HolyAvenger wrote...

If you're not gonna be friends him, finish him off at the ambush. That's what my ruthless Wardens do.

I have NEVER been able to do that.  Probably because I like him way too much, but I can't seem to make a warden that would kill him.   (I do have to say that it's good that he said that Logaine hired him instead of Howe though...my Couslands probably wouldn't have taken that well at all. I'd have a hard time role playing a cousland that would spare him then)   but my warden's picked up everyone on they way, so it makes no since for someone that picked up a person that admited to killing a farmhold of people including children because he lost his sword and then not see any use for an assasin.

[Jenova65]

HolyAvenger wrote...

If you're not gonna be friends him, finish him off at the ambush. That's what my ruthless Wardens do.

Kill Zevran?  No.

[HolyAvenger]

Really? I find it quite easy to RP Wardens who do that. You try to kill me, personally? You die. No mercy. No trust for someone who can easily slip some poison into the food or a knife into the back.

In fact its probably harder to make the mental contortions to justify taking him in a crapsack setting like Thedas.

[Jenova65]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Really? I find it quite easy to RP Wardens who do that. You try to kill me, personally? You die. No mercy. No trust for someone who can easily slip some poison into the food or a knife into the back.

In fact its probably harder to make the mental contortions to justify taking him in a crapsack setting like Thedas.

No, wish I could sometimes be that person in a game, but I just can't bring myself to do it....... You ever play SMT Lucifer's Call? (or Nocturne as it is known in the States) Sometimes the enemies will beg for mercy, and they may ask to join you other times give you an item and other times it is a bluff and they attack. I always show mercy, I hate the thought of someone/thing begging for their life  I cannot separate myself from that part of me even in games. So I let them go and if they attack again I have no problem killing them.

[nos_astra]

Jenova65 wrote...
So I let them go and if they attack again I have no problem killing them.

And of course you expect to kill them and not the other way round, right? Something your PC can never be sure of.
Would you really forgive everything if it may quite literally be your last mistake? I doubt that. ;-)

[ejoslin]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Really? I find it quite easy to RP Wardens who do that. You try to kill me, personally? You die. No mercy. No trust for someone who can easily slip some poison into the food or a knife into the back.

In fact its probably harder to make the mental contortions to justify taking him in a crapsack setting like Thedas.

Actually, it's not that difficult to justify.  Zevran doesn't have the contract -- the Crows do. You learn in that first conversation that the Crows will not just let it go; they'll send more after you (that that doesn't actually happen is metagaming). So you can have the known assassin right where you can keep an eye on him, or you can always be looking over your shoulder for more assassins.  Taking in Zevran, if nothing else, buys you some time where you can get things accomplished without having to worry about unknown assassins.

As far as slipping in some poison, that he doesn't is why I say that he doesn't want to kill the warden, even a warden he doesn't like.  He just doesn't attempt it.  However, that's why it's silly not to talk to him and get to know him.  Of course, if you always have someone watching him, it does make it more difficult for him to do anything.  

Edit: and to answer another post, Zevran is badly bugged on all three platforms.  He's not quite as bad as Leliana, but yeh, be careful of pitfalls, and you'll have to watch on YouTube to see the proper gate dialog if you take him with you.

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 février 2011 - 04:24 .

[HolyAvenger]

Or he could, you know, be lying in order to get a second shot at you. If your Warden is suspicious and ruthless sort, why take the chance. Knife in the throat solves that. Why believe anything a man trying to save himself who has just tried to kill you says.

Knowing that Zev won't betray you is also metagaming.

[ejoslin]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Or he could, you know, be lying in order to get a second shot at you. If your Warden is suspicious and ruthless sort, why take the chance. Knife in the throat solves that. Why believe anything a man trying to save himself who has just tried to kill you says.

Knowing that Zev won't betray you is also metagaming.

Leliana is the one who says that the crows are renouned for always getting  the job done, though.  And of course he could be lying.  That Orlesean bard, the one who DID lie to you about what she was?  Trusting her despite that is also metagaming by that definition.  I don't think it's metagaming, however; I certainly made the decision to spare Zevran my first game unspoiled.  

[frostajulie]

I have never played a suspicious ruthless sort of warden. Actually it is probably only game mechanics that keeps my wardens alive anyway becasue Zevran had me when he told me how he was raised in the ****house and then as an assassin he never had a choice. Even my gray Grey wardens are big softies when that happens. Suckers for a sob story every one of them.