132 réponses à ce sujet

[HolyAvenger]

She's also has no history of, you know, trying to kill you in an ambush. In fact she joins in on your side in a fight. While she does lie to you, she hardly give you a reason to kill her. Unlike Zev. Who gives you plenty of reason to just dispose of him and move on.

My first Warden was a nice guy who spared Zev. But I've subsequently RP'd Wardens who've killed him. Including a Dalish who would've become great friends with him, but it would've massively OOC for him to spare Zev at that moment.

[ejoslin]

HolyAvenger wrote...

She's also has no history of, you know, trying to kill you in an ambush. In fact she joins in on your side in a fight. While she does lie to you, she hardly give you a reason to kill her. Unlike Zev. Who gives you plenty of reason to just dispose of him and move on.

My first Warden was a nice guy who spared Zev. But I've subsequently RP'd Wardens who've killed him. Including a Dalish who would've become great friends with him, but it would've massively OOC for him to spare Zev at that moment.

But what she does have is a history of using deception to get close to her marks and also of deceiving you.  Of course, we could also talk about the mass murderer you recruited who kills people when he loses his temper.  

Seriously, the only companion you really can trust is Alistair and perhaps Wynne (though Wynne I think shows herself badly in both the fade and when talking to Irving from the start).

Saying recruiting  Zevran is metagaming is just not true. I gave a perfectly good reason why a  warden would spare him.  You may not choose to do that, but it's not metagaming to decide to keep your assassin close rather than always on the looking for the unknown ones.  

Edit: Or to trust him.  You can tell Alistair at one point that you and Zevran have a connection (gossip converstion) if the romance is active.  Sometimes people just click.

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 février 2011 - 04:45 .

[HolyAvenger]

Agreed that a lot of the NPCs are questionable- I've had Wardens leave Sten at Lothering as they no wish to travel with a mass murderer too. One of things with Leliana is that it takes a long time to get her to reveal her secret past...not quite the same situation.

Don't forget Dog

I'm not saying recruiting Zev is metagaming, I was holding that up as a counter-example that knowing the Crows not sending more assassins after you is meta-gaming. You can't take one into account and not the other. I've RP'd plenty of Wardens who've kept him (heck, my current game is an FAmell who's romancing him) but I'm saying in many ways its an easy decision to kill him rather than recruit him.

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

He only leaves the fight if in a romance -- Taliesen was more than a friend. They were lovers. If he's above 26 (interested) but at 70 (care) or lower is when he'll walk away. It's between his old lover/friend/whatever and his new one -- last time he made a choice between two lovers was pretty disastrous for him. Once he hits 71+ (adore) there's no question for him.

Though if not romanced, he'll fight for his friend no matter what -- that's 26+ (warm).

I thought he would stay if friended and very high approval?  It's pretty hard to get either way- his approval shoots up really fast if romanced.  I had to deliberately hold out on the plot gifts to get it.

You also have to not choose the line "Zevran doesn't need the Crows anymore."  He stays if you say that.

BTW I made some videos of him leaving and the camp dialogue after.

I did say he'd stay with his friend no matter what and the approval he needs to be at.  I know about the line about not needing the crows  I was just sayign the circumstance where he would leave, but you're right, if you say that line he will fight as well.

I know that you know, of course.    I was posting for benefit of people who don't know.  But I mean I thought he would also leave the fight for someone friended but at very high approval- something I've never been able to test.

[ejoslin]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Agreed that a lot of the NPCs are questionable- I've had Wardens leave Sten at Lothering as they no wish to travel with a mass murderer too. One of things with Leliana is that it takes a long time to get her to reveal her secret past...not quite the same situation.

Don't forget Dog

I'm not saying recruiting Zev is metagaming, I was holding that up as a counter-example that knowing the Crows not sending more assassins after you is meta-gaming. You can't take one into account and not the other. I've RP'd plenty of Wardens who've kept him (heck, my current game is an FAmell who's romancing him) but I'm saying in many ways its an easy decision to kill him rather than recruit him.

You are told by Leliana that they will come after you, though -- so thnking that the crows will come after you again, and Zevran as well, if Leliana is in your party at the ambush, is believing what both she and Zevran tell you.  Morrigan talks about the crows coming after and torturing Zevran if he's caught in a banter.  Knowing that the crows don't actually come after you is metagaming -- there is no way your character in the game can know that.  And you don't know that he won't betray you (and in fact, if you don't get to know him, he will).  There's no metagaming involved with deciding to recruit him -- and trusting him is the same as trusting any of your other party members, really.  Either you do or do not.

I do bring up Leliana because her MO was actually the same as Zevran's usual MO -- get close to the mark by seduction and/or lying (Isabela is a good example of this -- he seduced her to get close to her husband).  Do you honestly trust someone who has killed or even just spied on in the past by doing exactly what she has done to you?  I do, because I like the character.  But trusting that this one time she used her skills in order to fight the darkspawn rather than to spy on you is a bit of a leap of faith.  But it's an ok one to take.

Hell, you don't know a LOT of what is going to happen in the story.  That doesn't make it metagaming.  It's what makes the characters interesting.  Alistair and how he plays out I find completely fascinating.  I would say the choice to harden him is, for most, metagaming.  Especially if you want to keep the romance going!  But trusting that the romance is going to work and all that isn't.

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 février 2011 - 06:05 .

[ejoslin]

Addai67 wrote...
I know that you know, of course.    I was posting for benefit of people who don't know.  But I mean I thought he would also leave the fight for someone friended but at very high approval- something I've never been able to test.

No, Zevran won't leave the fight if the romance isn't active.  That is definitely a romance action.  Look at it this way -- if the romance isn't active, it's a choice between his new path and his old path.  If the romance is active, he's a choice between his new lover and his former lover.  The last time he made that choice nearly broke him.  However, if he adores the warden, there's no question; his feelings are strong enough that he sides with the warden.  But if his approval is lower, he's torn.

But yeh, if you just want to look at it technically, that scene, the leaving is triggered by his being romanced and between 26+ interested and 70 care.  Adore gets it's own branch as does Warm.

[Jenova65]

klarabella wrote...

Jenova65 wrote...
So I let them go and if they attack again I have no problem killing them.

And of course you expect to kill them and not the other way round, right? Something your PC can never be sure of.
Would you really forgive everything if it may quite literally be your last mistake? I doubt that. ;-)

As much as I understand that level of immersion it is a game and there isn't a way to avoid metagaming really, when I see Zevran I already know that if I play my cards right he will be my best friend, he will! And as I pointed out, I can't separate myself from that (you only partly quoted me, and that bit of info was pertinent to my view as a whole) 

[war4n0th1n9]

To be honest, I never use Zevran or most characters in the game. Only for a foursome I'll take him out of the camp, other than that useless character. I think he only turned on me once don't regret the kill.

[ColaQueen]

@war4noth1n9 Harsh! He's pretty awesome in battle actually and after a couple of level ups I don't have to even think about him. Give him the highest invisibilty, max out his assasin tree and keep up his dual wields and rogue tree (I do ignore coup de grace for him though so I don't have to micromanage), make sure he always goes invisible before attacking and watch him not only massacre the enemy, but stick by your side and make sure you don't get dead.

Not to mention he has some excellent banter with all the other companions. Like Sten he comfronts their images of themselves and the world and challenges their ideas and beliefs. He and Oghren are quite a hillarious pairing.

He is hardly useless. No character is really useless in this game it's just that people don't take time to explore either their abilities and potential or their back stories, dialogue and quests.

[Eber]

ejoslin wrote...

Actually, it's not that difficult to justify.  Zevran doesn't have the contract -- the Crows do. You learn in that first conversation that the Crows will not just let it go; they'll send more after you (that that doesn't actually happen is metagaming). So you can have the known assassin right where you can keep an eye on him, or you can always be looking over your shoulder for more assassins.  Taking in Zevran, if nothing else, buys you some time where you can get things accomplished without having to worry about unknown assassins.

I don't think it buys more time. If Zevran disappears with you the Crows will assume he's a goner and start sending new men to fulfill the contract same as if he was dead. Someone who recruits Zevran would then have to keep an eye on him and watch over their shoulder for more assassins.

Modifié par Eber, 27 février 2011 - 10:21 .

[Addai]

war4n0th1n9 wrote...

To be honest, I never use Zevran or most characters in the game. Only for a foursome I'll take him out of the camp, other than that useless character. I think he only turned on me once don't regret the kill.

He's one of the deadliest, if not the deadliest, NPCs you pick up.  I'd rather have a well-built (no pun intended ) melee rogue than another warrior in my party if given the choice.

[Jenova65]

Eber wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Actually, it's not that difficult to justify.  Zevran doesn't have the contract -- the Crows do. You learn in that first conversation that the Crows will not just let it go; they'll send more after you (that that doesn't actually happen is metagaming). So you can have the known assassin right where you can keep an eye on him, or you can always be looking over your shoulder for more assassins.  Taking in Zevran, if nothing else, buys you some time where you can get things accomplished without having to worry about unknown assassins.

I don't think it buys more time. If Zevran disappears with you the Crows will assume he's a goner and start sending new men to fulfill the contract same as if he was dead. Someone who recruits Zevran would then have to keep an eye on him and watch over their shoulder for more assassins.

Not true, quite far from true.... If you do the missions for the crows they assure you that the crows are not interested in taking on a new contract for the Warden.
And Zevran IS one of the deadliest party members no mistake about that........ He is lethal.

[Eber]

Let me rephrase that. The natural assumption when making the decision is that the Crows will continue sending men after you in either case. Zevran's best argument for keeping him alive is that the Crows will come for you and that he would know what to look for.

"I could warn you should the Crows attempt something more sophisticated now that my attempts have failed"

[Collider]

thesuperdarkone wrote...

Collider wrote...

The Water God wrote...

Nearly half of your companions have been opportunists at one point or another. And besides that he likes Taliesen more than you.

You're calling him cruel for picking his best friend over a person he barely knows?

You spared his life, didn't you?

You saved Sten's life from Darkspawn and he wanted to die initially but he's still willing to attack and berate you

Sten didn't attack you before you recruited him, like Zevran did.
And the reason why Sten attacks you later on is different from Zevran's.

[Jenova65]

Eber wrote...

Let me rephrase that. The natural assumption when making the decision is that the Crows will continue sending men after you in either case. Zevran's best argument for keeping him alive is that the Crows will come for you and that he would know what to look for.

"I could warn you should the Crows attempt something more sophisticated now that my attempts have failed"

Maybe so  But it is only a game so I am prepared to take chances I wouldn't IRL, that's the point really, I am not really a dual weapon wielding instrument of death (sadly............... ) Why wouldn't I believe him? I am in a world of elves and dwarves my disbelief has already been suspended 

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Collider wrote...

Sten didn't attack you before you recruited him, like Zevran did.

Zevran didn't slaughter a family and children in a moment of blind panic before you recruited him, like Sten did.

And the reason why Sten attacks you later on is different from Zevran's.

True. Sten thinks your leadership is questionable, while Zevran decides he's going to die fighting by the side of the only friend he has.

[HolyAvenger]

ejoslin wrote...

You are told by Leliana that they will come after you, though -- so thnking that the crows will come after you again, and Zevran as well, if Leliana is in your party at the ambush, is believing what both she and Zevran tell you.  Morrigan talks about the crows coming after and torturing Zevran if he's caught in a banter.  Knowing that the crows don't actually come after you is metagaming -- there is no way your character in the game can know that.  And you don't know that he won't betray you (and in fact, if you don't get to know him, he will).  There's no metagaming involved with deciding to recruit him -- and trusting him is the same as trusting any of your other party members, really.  Either you do or do not.

Well, yes ok your companions speculate that their might more assassins coming after you but they've hardly been right all the time before. Its hardly meta-gaming to decide that you'd rather back your skills in a straight fight against them rather than wandering around with someone who has a prior record of trying to murder you. And you won't get the Morrigan comment if you kill him, so have very little evidence about whether the Crows will come after you or not, and then again even if they do some of my Wardens would prefer that frankly.

I agree with you on the trust issue actually- that's exactly how I RP that choice. My nice, believe-in-the-good-inside-all-of-us Wardens choose to take Zev at his words, trust him and recruit him. My suspicious, ruthless, its-not-paranoia-if-they're-really-out-to-get-you Wardens don't and kill him at the ambush.

ejoslin wrote...
I do bring up Leliana because her MO was actually the same as Zevran's usual MO -- get close to the mark by seduction and/or lying (Isabela is a good example of this -- he seduced her to get close to her husband).  Do you honestly trust someone who has killed or even just spied on in the past by doing exactly what she has done to you?  I do, because I like the character.  But trusting that this one time she used her skills in order to fight the darkspawn rather than to spy on you is a bit of a leap of faith.  But it's an ok one to take.

Leliana offers you personally no threat at all. That in itself is the biggest divergence from the Zev situation. I trust her because she has no motive and prior history of trying to kill me. Furthermore by the time she trusts you enough to reveal her secret of being a former spy and assassin there's a lot more history and common experience there to draw upon when judging her. Of course when she does you do get to decide whether to keep trusting her or not, but the whole story arc is much, much different from Zev's and leap of faith there is, for me, much smaller and easier to make than with Zevran.

[Jenova65]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Collider wrote...

Sten didn't attack you before you recruited him, like Zevran did.

Zevran didn't slaughter a family and children in a moment of blind panic before you recruited him, like Sten did.

And the reason why Sten attacks you later on is different from Zevran's.

True. Sten thinks your leadership is questionable, while Zevran decides he's going to die fighting by the side of the only friend he has.

I think it is one of those things, like everyone is ''Ooooh, Anders is digusting, how can you still like him now he is a cannibal''............... Ummm, the same way I like Spike in Buffy and the way girls swoon over (urgh) whatsisface in Twilight (<_<) What's the difference? they are sexy, hiding a beast and are passionate............... I personally find werewolves a real turn on like Jason Behr in Skinwalkers, wouldn't fancy one IRL, it is fantasy and we all love to be a bit scared, don't we.  People forget it is not real, lol 
Zev actually has a deep loyalty to the warden, far more than most of the rest of the party imo... 

[sylvanaerie]

Jenova65 wrote...

Eber wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Actually, it's not that difficult to justify.  Zevran doesn't have the contract -- the Crows do. You learn in that first conversation that the Crows will not just let it go; they'll send more after you (that that doesn't actually happen is metagaming). So you can have the known assassin right where you can keep an eye on him, or you can always be looking over your shoulder for more assassins.  Taking in Zevran, if nothing else, buys you some time where you can get things accomplished without having to worry about unknown assassins.

I don't think it buys more time. If Zevran disappears with you the Crows will assume he's a goner and start sending new men to fulfill the contract same as if he was dead. Someone who recruits Zevran would then have to keep an eye on him and watch over their shoulder for more assassins.

Not true, quite far from true.... If you do the missions for the crows they assure you that the crows are not interested in taking on a new contract for the Warden.
And Zevran IS one of the deadliest party members no mistake about that........ He is lethal.

Only half true.  Ignacio will tell you that the Crows, once they accept a contract never cancel it.  He can't call off the other Crows, but doing those odd jobs for him might mean that when Taliesan (or the rest of his cell) go looking for help to complete it, they won't get it.
So yea, you have to watch out for Crows coming at you plus watch the guy in your camp.  If you do spare him and bring him along, it's just stupid NOT to get on his good side as quickly as you can as he may make a good warning system as to when Crows may strike. 
That he doesn't till the actual attack comes is just game mechanics.  He WILL turn up in that alley regardless of what the approval level is, to either side with the PC, side with the Crows or (in the case of a lower level of romantic feelings) walk away from the fight.  One of the many reasons I like him better as a friend and not a lover.
Ahh well, no one said love was easy...and in the case of Bioware love that seems to hold true too.

[Addai]

HolyAvenger wrote...
Leliana offers you personally no threat at all. That in itself is the biggest divergence from the Zev situation. I trust her because she has no motive and prior history of trying to kill me. Furthermore by the time she trusts you enough to reveal her secret of being a former spy and assassin there's a lot more history and common experience there to draw upon when judging her. Of course when she does you do get to decide whether to keep trusting her or not, but the whole story arc is much, much different from Zev's and leap of faith there is, for me, much smaller and easier to make than with Zevran.

Zevran, however, never tries to be something he's not.  Leliana OTOH even hints that she'll be whatever you want her to be... just like she used to do when she was a bard.  So I find her creepy and untrustworthy.  My PCs don't start out trusting Zevran, either, but there's never a time where I feel like he's not straight up with you.

[HolyAvenger]

Addai67 wrote...

Zevran, however, never tries to be something he's not.  Leliana OTOH even hints that she'll be whatever you want her to be... just like she used to do when she was a bard.  So I find her creepy and untrustworthy.  My PCs don't start out trusting Zevran, either, but there's never a time where I feel like he's not straight up with you.

Fair enough. I agree that if you take Zev and become friendly with him he's very honest and truthful with you. The choice with my Wardens come before they even get to know him, at the ambush itself. Hence why I find the comparison between the situations quite difficult to make.

[nos_astra]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
Zevran didn't slaughter a family and children in a moment of blind panic before you recruited him, like Sten did.

But he comes very close. He's an assassin after all. It's safe to assume that he has spend his life killing people.

[ejoslin]

klarabella wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
Zevran didn't slaughter a family and children in a moment of blind panic before you recruited him, like Sten did.

But he comes very close. He's an assassin after all. It's safe to assume that he has spend his life killing people.

And there starts the debate -- were Zevran's actions before he met the warden justified?  Yes, he was an assassin.  He does say, regretfully, that accidents happen and innocents are occasionally killed.  He was a slave.  He was raised from the age of 7 to be a murderer.  His life before 7 sounds pretty awful as well.  His choice, all his life, was kill or be killed.  Torture was par for the course.  He talks about weeks in an oubliette, festering wounds, slavery.  He talks about being taught how to give a massage he learned in a wh*rehouse -- the one he left when he was 7, where he learned about sex (there were both male and female wh*res there).

Going with the warden was his first chance to escape all of that, and he jumped on it.

Really, I think the most risky companion to take with you is Shale.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

klarabella wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
Zevran didn't slaughter a family and children in a moment of blind panic before you recruited him, like Sten did.

But he comes very close. He's an assassin after all. It's safe to assume that he has spend his life killing people.

Oh, I'm not defending Zevran's past, or the fact he ambushed the Wardens. I'm just pointing out that there aren't many people the PC can recruit who doesn't have the potention to turn on him/her. Zev possibly just has the most overtly shown reason--all the other companions it's done more softly, through dialogue. "I killed a family, including the children," doesn't pack the same kind of punch as a trap and combat.

Or a pile of corpses.

Edit: I should point out, lest it was overlooked, that I used the words 'blind panic' in my previous post. Even Sten seems to think his temporary blood-frenzy is reason enough to remain caged, lest others be harmed. Zevran may be a killer, but he's a deliberate killer. I suppose it's debatable which is the more dangerous.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 28 février 2011 - 09:50 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

So is Zevran only involved with Talisan if he is romancing the Warden at that time in the game? Because watching the videos that is what it looked like. I got him to fight by my side against Talisan when I was just friends with him. It seems weird that "Warm" gets you better loyalty response from him than a romance approval level.,