132 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

So is Zevran only involved with Talisan if he is romancing the Warden at that time in the game? Because watching the videos that is what it looked like. I got him to fight by my side against Talisan when I was just friends with him. It seems weird that "Warm" gets you better loyalty response from him than a romance approval level.,

He and Taliesen were lovers no matter what.  He states it outright if he leaves the fight, especially if you question him about it later.  In order for him to leave the fight, he needs to be romanced and between 26-70.

Edit: His story doesn't change based on the romance with the warden -- it's just you learn different things depending on where your approval is.  And it makes sense.  It's only if he leaves the fight that he owes the warden an explanation.  He doesn't discuss it with a warden who is at "adore," either as it is no longer an issue for him.

Modifié par ejoslin, 28 février 2011 - 10:35 .

[Wulfram]

Addai67 wrote...
 My PCs don't start out trusting Zevran, either, but there's never a time where I feel like he's not straight up with you.

Apart from where he swears that he is your man, without reservation, then tries to kill you.

[Jenova65]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Jenova65 wrote...

Eber wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Actually, it's not that difficult to justify.  Zevran doesn't have the contract -- the Crows do. You learn in that first conversation that the Crows will not just let it go; they'll send more after you (that that doesn't actually happen is metagaming). So you can have the known assassin right where you can keep an eye on him, or you can always be looking over your shoulder for more assassins.  Taking in Zevran, if nothing else, buys you some time where you can get things accomplished without having to worry about unknown assassins.

I don't think it buys more time. If Zevran disappears with you the Crows will assume he's a goner and start sending new men to fulfill the contract same as if he was dead. Someone who recruits Zevran would then have to keep an eye on him and watch over their shoulder for more assassins.

Not true, quite far from true.... If you do the missions for the crows they assure you that the crows are not interested in taking on a new contract for the Warden.
And Zevran IS one of the deadliest party members no mistake about that........ He is lethal.

Only half true.  Ignacio will tell you that the Crows, once they accept a contract never cancel it.  He can't call off the other Crows, but doing those odd jobs for him might mean that when Taliesan (or the rest of his cell) go looking for help to complete it, they won't get it.
So yea, you have to watch out for Crows coming at you plus watch the guy in your camp.  If you do spare him and bring him along, it's just stupid NOT to get on his good side as quickly as you can as he may make a good warning system as to when Crows may strike. 
That he doesn't till the actual attack comes is just game mechanics.  He WILL turn up in that alley regardless of what the approval level is, to either side with the PC, side with the Crows or (in the case of a lower level of romantic feelings) walk away from the fight.  One of the many reasons I like him better as a friend and not a lover.
Ahh well, no one said love was easy...and in the case of Bioware love that seems to hold true too.

Ignacio *heavily indicates* that the crows aren't interested in pursuing the warden and that they realise the warden is the one to back to end the blight. And that they won't take any new contracts on the warden, even indicating that he/she would be a valuable asset to the crows. But as I said there is no reason to overthink this, the game (and it is only a game) makes sure that unless you fail at talking to party members there is no reason to sleep with a knife at your side for Zev unless you really don't want him sneaking into your tent 
Even if you sleep with the guy and dump him, you take an approval hit but he is STILL one of the best friends you will have in the game and the only one pretty much who will alter HIS plans to stay with or follow the Warden at the coronation..... I really like the character and I think he might be one of the most redeemable characters BioWare have written 

[Klidi]

In my first playtrough, I left Sten in Lothering, recruited Leliana only at the exist, because Alistair insisted on it, but never liked her - I always knew she was hiding something and that she chose to pretend she converted and became a devot sister, while in fact she liked "hunt" and killing, was something I couldn't get over. I asked her to leave after finding out about Marjolaine.
Zev, on the other hand, was frank from the beginning. He always asnwered whatever question openly. Yes, it could be lie, but if an assassin says he likes the act of killing, I don't know why should I suspect it's not true. I never agreed with him on that, and I WAS rather judgmental in my first game, but Dalish gloves (+13), Antivan boots (+15) and conversation on my plans with him, without flirting (+12) made up for that. His approval was around +40 when we met Taliesin, and he "proved to be a valuable asset". I only started the romance with him after that, with his "stare" line.
Since then, my problem is that I get his approval too fast... even when I decide I will try to romance someone else - somehow, all my Wardens always end up with Zev. ) I actually had to cheat (decreasing his approval via console) to get the scenes where he leaves the battle or betrays me.

[sylvanaerie]

Klidi wrote...

In my first playtrough, I left Sten in Lothering, recruited Leliana only at the exist, because Alistair insisted on it, but never liked her - I always knew she was hiding something and that she chose to pretend she converted and became a devot sister, while in fact she liked "hunt" and killing, was something I couldn't get over. I asked her to leave after finding out about Marjolaine.
Zev, on the other hand, was frank from the beginning. He always asnwered whatever question openly. Yes, it could be lie, but if an assassin says he likes the act of killing, I don't know why should I suspect it's not true. I never agreed with him on that, and I WAS rather judgmental in my first game, but Dalish gloves (+13), Antivan boots (+15) and conversation on my plans with him, without flirting (+12) made up for that. His approval was around +40 when we met Taliesin, and he "proved to be a valuable asset". I only started the romance with him after that, with his "stare" line.
Since then, my problem is that I get his approval too fast... even when I decide I will try to romance someone else - somehow, all my Wardens always end up with Zev. ) I actually had to cheat (decreasing his approval via console) to get the scenes where he leaves the battle or betrays me.

LOL he really does gain approval quickly doesn't he?  Usually I have NO problem keeping him in the friend zone (that one convo does it, proving for all his outrageous flirting, he IS a gentleman at heart).  My problem would be keeping his approval low enough to trigger the damn turn around in Denerim.  I solved it by ignoring him completely after recruiting him.  Even then he had 14 approval (I think I may have forgotten what i was doing and talked with him a couple times).  That was a larky playthrough anyway, as far from canon as I will ever get.  My Cousland boy was so damaged by what happened he didn't let anyone (except Leliana, whom I do like, and Wynne, because of all the companions she is the ONLY one who acknowleges the pain of what you went through in the origin and tries to comfort the PC) get close to him emotionally (IE made a friend or lover).  Alistair has one throwaway line about 'did you lose anyone close to you' during the Duncan conversation.  At least he has the good grace to apologize for forgettting what you went through. Roland even recruited Sten (though I planned on having him turn on me in Haven, and booting him after kicking his sorry butt) though because of his issues with trust/family, he almost didn't.
Zevran was recruited as well (keep your friends close, enemies closer) and that was sort of the mentality when Roland recruited Loghain as well.  He didn't hate Alistair or anything and was surprised when his fellow warden walked out on them at the Landsmeet but it didn't stop him from doing what he had to do.
I don't think I will ever make a PC who would kill Zev outright. For one the scene is absolutely wretched (killing a bound and unconscious man sticks bad in my craw).  For another, it makes sense to wake him, find out what he was doing and who he was working for (and if any more can be expected) but by the time comes you have to make a choice to kill him, let him go or recruit him, he's already won me over.  Cheesy come on's and really atrocious fake Antonio Banderas accent notwithstanding, he is one of the best written characters I've ever found in a Bioware game and depriving myself of his banters and conversations is more than I can tolerate.
Besides, failing the persuade with Alistair when you recruit him gets a really funny line from the ex-templar

Alistair's line: My current PC can't lie her way out of wet paper sack, failing most persuade and intimidate rolls except for the very simple ones.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 28 février 2011 - 02:07 .

[ColaQueen]

Basically, besides Oghren really Zev is the only one who will tell you the truth about themselves and the past fairly quickly and proves his loyalty right away. Whereas everyone else you have to dig to get the truth out of them or wait for something to happen which exposes things.

I remember the first time Alistair told my PC that she would only live another 30 years at most. I was just like "errr you couldn't have told me before the joining?" thanks!

To be honest in a world like Fereldon 30 years seems like a long time, but to know that you have an actual 'expiry date' and that either you can let it take you in a very nasty and prolonged way or you can go down into the deep roads and sacrifice yourself to Darkspawn doesn't exactly sound like the way any of my Wardens wants to go out.

My point is thate sure, if you leave Zev to his own devices he'll betray you but to be fair it's not any worsel than anything else the others are holding back on. So you're better off befriending him and getting a very useful friend and a very interesting companion.

[Addai]

Wulfram wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
 My PCs don't start out trusting Zevran, either, but there's never a time where I feel like he's not straight up with you.

Apart from where he swears that he is your man, without reservation, then tries to kill you.

He doesn't plan the ambush.  If you haven't earned his loyalty by then, you get what you put into him.

[Verly]

I've never had Zev betray me. When I played the game without visiting the forums I didn't even know it was possible. That might just be the way I've played the game. I saw no need to add companions if I wasn't expected  to talk to them or getting to know them better. I played first on the ps3 so I didn't even have the ability to see the score to know where I really was with each of my companions. Now, I play it on the PC and it's even easier.

Modifié par Verly, 28 février 2011 - 04:11 .

[Wulfram]

Addai67 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
 My PCs don't start out trusting Zevran, either, but there's never a time where I feel like he's not straight up with you.

Apart from where he swears that he is your man, without reservation, then tries to kill you.

He doesn't plan the ambush.  If you haven't earned his loyalty by then, you get what you put into him.

He didn't say "I hereby pledge my oath of loyalty to you, until such time as one of my old friends turn up and I decide you haven't given me enough gold, or been sympathetic about how much I enjoy killing people"

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
 My PCs don't start out trusting Zevran, either, but there's never a time where I feel like he's not straight up with you.

Apart from where he swears that he is your man, without reservation, then tries to kill you.

He doesn't plan the ambush.  If you haven't earned his loyalty by then, you get what you put into him.

He didn't say "I hereby pledge my oath of loyalty to you, until such time as one of my old friends turn up and I decide you haven't given me enough gold, or been sympathetic about how much I enjoy killing people"

Well he was at sword point, did you really expect he would stay true to his word if he doesn't have incentives to and after the sword is off his neck?

And for me, it makes no sense at all to keep an assassin with you, if you don't plan to butter him up and make him your assassin. Better to kill him than to keep him behind your back and antagonize him at the same time.  

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 28 février 2011 - 05:23 .

[Wulfram]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Well he was at sword point, did you really expect he would stay true to his word if he doesn't have incentives to and after the sword is off his neck?

The claim was that there's never a time when he's not straight with you.  That's obviously not true, since he swears an oath that he breaks unless you make friends with him.

And for me, it makes no sense at all to keep an assassin with you, if you don't plan to butter him up and make him your assassin. Better to kill him than to keep him behind your back and antagonize him at the same time.  

Not every warden is the sort of person who kills prisoners, and at least if he's at your camp you know where he is.  And you don't have to antagonise him for him to turn on you.

[Klidi]

Wulfram wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
 My PCs don't start out trusting Zevran, either, but there's never a time where I feel like he's not straight up with you.

Apart from where he swears that he is your man, without reservation, then tries to kill you.

He doesn't plan the ambush.  If you haven't earned his loyalty by then, you get what you put into him.

He didn't say "I hereby pledge my oath of loyalty to you, until such time as one of my old friends turn up and I decide you haven't given me enough gold, or been sympathetic about how much I enjoy killing people"

Heh. Zevran DID modify his oath later. As he put it, one assumes that you won't need an assassin after the Blight is over. And then, ever if he doesn't betray you, he will say that he could leave now...
and really, any Warden that would fully believe such oath coming from the assasin that just tried to kill him, must be either very naive and gullible, or have a death wish.

[metalcraze33]

You can be neutral about him killing people and still keep his approval as long as you don't scream you're a nasty murderer at him or things to that effect
.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...
The claim was that there's never a time when he's not straight with you.  That's obviously not true, since he swears an oath that he breaks unless you make friends with him.

Agreed.
He also does not mention his, supposedely, true intentions in trying to kill you. Had you known that Zevran does not mind dying, one could have known that he is more dangerous.

Not every warden is the sort of person who kills prisoners, and at least if he's at your camp you know where he is.  And you don't have to antagonise him for him to turn on you.

I would not consider them wise. Unless they tie him up in camp, but the option isn't there.
And that warden failed to butter him up. So either antagonized, or did not change his attitude towards them much.
I think it's partially a failure on their part. But yes I agree, Zevran is not always straight with you.  

[Addai]

Wulfram wrote...
He didn't say "I hereby pledge my oath of loyalty to you, until such time as one of my old friends turn up and I decide you haven't given me enough gold, or been sympathetic about how much I enjoy killing people"

Ok, granted, if you assume his oath is like a slave bond, you will find out he chooses death instead.  Of course, if you had bothered to talk to him at all, you'd know he doesn't see it that way.

Once again you're making interaction with him to be something it's not, but I expect it's just how you see the character so no sense in arguing it.

[Wulfram]

I think his oath should extend to not killing the person he swore it to - particularly when that person has treated him perfectly decently.  I don't think that is assuming it is a slave bond.

[ejoslin]

Wulfram wrote...

I think his oath should extend to not killing the person he swore it to - particularly when that person has treated him perfectly decently.  I don't think that is assuming it is a slave bond.

I'm pretty sure Zevran knows he'll lose that fight.  If he leaves the fight, if you confront him about that, he tells you that he knew Taliesen would lose -- that he was leaving him to his fate.

[Klidi]

yes, not killing the person he swore it to would be honourable.
but that is exactly the problem. you expect an assasin to have that kind of honor. Zev is not a chantry boy, Zev is a survivor and will always choose the option he thinks is best for his survival. hardly surprising, with his background, I'd think.
if you are harsh towards him, or if you ignore him completely, why wouldn't he have doubts if you are the the best option? why wouldn't he think if it perhaps wasn't better if he returned to Crows? I know I would. And given the chance, by person closest to a friend he ever had, why wouldn't he use it?
It doesn't take that much to reassure him, to win him to your side, however - Zev wants to be free from Crows and will reward even the slightest kindness with high approval.

[Wulfram]

ejoslin wrote...

I'm pretty sure Zevran knows he'll lose that fight.  If he leaves the fight, if you confront him about that, he tells you that he knew Taliesen would lose -- that he was leaving him to his fate.

Well, I'm pretty sure I've lost that fight at least once, so I don't think his confidence in the Warden is entirely justified.

[Jenova65]

Wulfram wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

I'm pretty sure Zevran knows he'll lose that fight.  If he leaves the fight, if you confront him about that, he tells you that he knew Taliesen would lose -- that he was leaving him to his fate.

Well, I'm pretty sure I've lost that fight at least once, so I don't think his confidence in the Warden is entirely justified.

Not really the *Warden's* fault, that, is it? 

[Joy Divison]

Wulfram wrote...

Not every warden is the sort of person who kills prisoners, and at least if he's at your camp you know where he is.  And you don't have to antagonise him for him to turn on you.

Umm...yeah you know where he is: armed and about 50 feet away from your sleeping, helpless body.  I fail to see how "knowing where he is" is an adequate or realisitc solution.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

My own Wardens usually spare Zevran, but like KoP suggested, they do so initially because they are suspicous of him and the crows, and feel it is a far better idea to keep their enemy close, and try to sway him or convince him to go pull a hit on Loghain or Howe. So it does not require metagame knowledge, nor an idiotic and naieve trust in Zevran, to want to spare him.

Killing him would be a waste, since it is the crow organization who is after you, not him specifically. Thus, in saving him, you could RP it with the intent of grilling him for intelligence on the Crows and their methods, to be better prepared for a future ambush. You could kill him, but that would not stop the crows, they would send someone else. Which is why it seems wiser to keep him alive and grill him.

None of my Wardens who spared him trusted him in the slightest initially, and were watching him closely. Nor did they really take his oath seriously, as they were wise enough not to trust the word of a man who just tried to kill them. This changed, naturally, as in their attempts to discern information on the crows, they got to know him, and came to respect him as a good friend and ally, as well as a source of endless amusement.

So yeah, while trusting Zevran initially is pretty risky and silly, there are very logical reasons not to kill him, but keep him close and bribe him with gifts of gold, silver, and leather. You can RP these gifts as bribes, hoping to buy Zevran's loyalty enough that he might be convinced to assasinate your enemies, if you really can't think of a reason why you would want to become friendly with the assassin.

In fact, me personally, I think there are more RP reasons to take Zevran into your party over leliana. Beyond her heloping you out in a fight, she initially comes off as a crazy religous nut who is hearing voices from the Maker, not exactly a burning endorsement for her companionship. About the only reason to take her along at that stage is because you are in desperate need of help and allies, and leliana is practically throwing herself on your cause. Though that in itself could be viewed with great suspicion by a Warden.

[Addai]

Wulfram wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

I'm pretty sure Zevran knows he'll lose that fight.  If he leaves the fight, if you confront him about that, he tells you that he knew Taliesen would lose -- that he was leaving him to his fate.

Well, I'm pretty sure I've lost that fight at least once, so I don't think his confidence in the Warden is entirely justified.

He knows that the Crows are going to lose.  If he walks away, he tells Taliesen "you're going to lose, and lose badly."  Even on his initial mission, he was committing suicide by Warden.  I doubt he rates his chances any higher the second time.

[Addai]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

My own Wardens usually spare Zevran, but like KoP suggested, they do so initially because they are suspicous of him and the crows, and feel it is a far better idea to keep their enemy close, and try to sway him or convince him to go pull a hit on Loghain or Howe. So it does not require metagame knowledge, nor an idiotic and naieve trust in Zevran, to want to spare him.

I did rp my city elf as being pretty trustful of him from the beginning.  She was a cunning rogue herself, and I figure she saw the badly planned ambush, heard his story and figured out right away what he was trying to do.

By the time you've seen him run to save your life a few dozen times, it becomes hard to imagine that he's still got it in for you.  Of course, that would require having him in your party, and if you do that then you're likely also to acquire his loyalty.

[Satyricon331]

Interesting thread.  

It's always been difficult for me to RP accepting Zevran into my party as opposed to just letting him walk since the tale he tells is so self-serving and thus less plausible, given his circumstances (and his response about why you should believe him - that he has no reason to lie since you have no reason to believe - doesn't make sense since the Warden's propensity to believe couldn't be his only consideration in the matter).  I've just taken to imagining extra dialog where my Wardens ask about some of the Crows' internal organizational structure and uncover that they have very high recruitment rates, which they need to whittle down as a result.  It's only with that extra piece of information that the claim they kill their failed assassins makes any sense from an organizational design perspective, and upon receiving that knowledge Zev's tale seems less ridiculous since org design is something an assassin would probably not know much about.  (I also imagine having the party keep a close eye on him at first).  

edit:  to put it another way, your life is on the line and you don't really have a reason to believe that the risk to Zevran (given the chance he's lying about killing failed assassins and the chance he could evade them (an issue where Zevran's description is self-serving as well)) is greater than the risk to your own life, even if you were to weigh those lives equally.  

Modifié par Satyricon331, 01 mars 2011 - 10:18 .