245 réponses à ce sujet

[Zerakus]

Wulfram wrote...

Of course, Fergus Cousland took the whole of DA:O to get to Denerim.

Yeah, no kidding, I'd almost forgot about him at that point, and was like. "Yay, I'll be a Teyrn! Waitaminute..".

[DreGregoire]

David Gaider wrote...

(1.) "Running since Ostagar" is not the same as "we ran directly here after the battle".

(2.) while evading darkspawn, and arrived well after the Warden (who, at this point in time, would have been completing his/her first major world quest).

1. Exactly!

2. If they had to avoid fighting I would think they might have had to do a lot of back tracking and going around areas. I'm exhausted thinking about it. LOL

Note: LOL I answered before reading responses to the original post and then I realized I could have just used David's response, so you all get two responses from me.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 24 février 2011 - 08:29 .

[David Gaider]

Lilacs wrote...
Just a side note: we have a choice to either kill Flemeth or let her live during Morrigan's quest. In my play-throughs I almost always let her live. Just a thought.

And it's impossible to receive Morrigan's quest until after Lothering is destroyed.

[Icinix]

David Gaider wrote...

Lilacs wrote...
Just a side note: we have a choice to either kill Flemeth or let her live during Morrigan's quest. In my play-throughs I almost always let her live. Just a thought.

And it's impossible to receive Morrigan's quest until after Lothering is destroyed.

Pfft. Like it matters. We all know Flemeth can't really die....

She'll always find a way to reverse the shield polarity or create a rift in time space and bring across an alternate version of herself...and if that fails...there is always Q..

[Darkeus]

See, I am of the opinion that what the demo showed is NOT the real beginning of the game. I may be wrong, but I don't think I am.

[jheise4321]

DarthCaine wrote...

I choose to believe that Hawke and Carver spent some time hiding from the darkspawn and avoiding them and Hawke arrived at the same the Warden did. I also choose to believe the darkspawn attacked right after the Warden left

This is the reason.  The warden was whisked away or whatever to flemeth's hut then left shortly after for Lothering.  Looking at the map on DA:O, Flemeth's hut is also closer than Ostagar to Lothering.  During this time Hawke was in hiding and trying to get to Lothering while making it past lines of darkspawn.  That could take awhile.  Hiding in bushes for days at a time watching darkspawn march by.  Like behind enemy lines type movies.  The protagonist doesnt crash and then is back at base the next day.

Modifié par jheise4321, 24 février 2011 - 08:47 .

[darklordpocky-san]

we in the writing circles call this a retcon

[bd223437]

Wulfram wrote...

Of course, Fergus Cousland took the whole of DA:O to get to Denerim.

This is pretty much how I took that exchange.  The Hawke(s) at Ostagar was not in the main battle proper, but rather a scouting party like the Ash warriors and/or Fergus Cousland that got cut off from the Battle of Ishal slaughter.  The third company had to pick its way back home after the disaster rather than retreating with Loghain's group.  That assumption allows Carver's interpretation of the battle to differ from Aveline's.  He didn't experience the betrayal, just the aftermath of the loss, while she saw the army retreat through Lothering.  This makes her view more in line with the farmer at the edge of Lothering's account minus the farmer's acceptance of Loghain's explanation for the withdrawl.

As for Flemeth's appointment I took that more as support for Morrigan's suspicion about her mother's intent.  Flemeth's appointment, to me, seemed likely to be giving herself time to prepare for possessing Morrigan and giving Morrigan time to successfully complete her mission to become a god baby incubator.

[Darkhour]

Varrics version of events. He wasn't there and in his mind the land should've been full blighted. 

Of course in truth they didn't want to dedicate resources to an area that is only about 15 minutes of gameplay. Grass, trees, lakes and Lothering itself would have been a waste.

[AllThatJazz]

jheise4321 wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

I choose to believe that Hawke and Carver spent some time hiding from the darkspawn and avoiding them and Hawke arrived at the same the Warden did. I also choose to believe the darkspawn attacked right after the Warden left

This is the reason.  The warden was whisked away or whatever to flemeth's hut then left shortly after for Lothering.  Looking at the map on DA:O, Flemeth's hut is also closer than Ostagar to Lothering.  During this time Hawke was in hiding and trying to get to Lothering while making it past lines of darkspawn.  That could take awhile.

Exactly. The Korcari Wilds must be a pretty big area. Especially if you're just stumbling through them, terrified, at least one of you (Carver) injured and therefore travelling at a slower pace, with no-one who has any clear idea of where they're going. Plus, like you say, they'd have had to hide a lot more because darkspawn are a lot more threatening to non wardens. Unlike in Origins - 2 grey wardens, potentially a trained mabari and a witch who knows exactly the right route to take, as she has travelled to Lothering plenty of times through the wilds. It makes total sense to me that it takes the Hawke(s) a lot longer to get home, by which time the Darkspawn are at the door, so to speak.x

[GODzilla]

Riloux wrote...

I think they ran from Ostagar to Lothering, stayed there a while hence "Why didn't we run sooner!?" then Lothering was attacked and somehow instantly destroyed while they were just getting out.

This. You can see the conflict in the demo. I guess when the younger Hawke brother returned from Ostagar he pressed to flee Lothering. But Hawke (player character) somehow stalled, thus the arguing at the beginning of the real prologue.

This caused their late withdrawal from Lothering, nearly being caught and...well the events that play out in the demo.

And about the landscape: How much did we see of the surroundings at Lothering in DAO? Next to nothing. Yes I agree that it does not fit many of what we've seen of Ferelden in DAO. And yes it's probably a continuity problem.

We could harp on about it, or use a little goodwill and imagination.

[Zalocx]

GODzilla_GSPB wrote...

And about the landscape: How much did we see of the surroundings at
Lothering in DAO? Next to nothing. Yes I agree that it does not fit many
of what we've seen of Ferelden in DAO. And yes it's probably a
continuity problem.

The words of a Bann in the Dererim tavern during the Landsmeet quests on the Blightlands:

"Its like the ground rotted beneath your feet, pestilence and darkspawn stalk the land  until even the crows grow sick with the stench of carrion"

The reason the Area looks radically different is probably because thats what true Blightlands look like. We never saw those in Origins, always being just north of the Horde or fighting in places (Ostragar/Denerim) where the Horde had just arrived and not had time to properly corrupt the land

[AlexXIV]

Lilacs wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Lilacs wrote...
Just a side note: we have a choice to either kill Flemeth or let her live during Morrigan's quest. In my play-throughs I almost always let her live. Just a thought.

And it's impossible to receive Morrigan's quest until after Lothering is destroyed.

All of my posts, Lead Writer, why must you choose this one, lol? 

The power of intuitive thinking at play here:  Here we go.

Okay, Lead writer, based on  that comment, I would assume Lothering is destroyed, and the warden speaks to
Morrigan  and accepts her quest.  Then our warden pays Flemeth a visit.  She (my warden) then decides to let her live (My dalish elf warrior did just that).  

Let's supposed Flemeth is alive (the warden chooses not kill her and lie to Morrigan) ).  Could it be that's  when she meets with Hawke (male or female) and give him or her  the amulet to take to the Dalish Keeper?*  If that is the case, then I would think the appointment she mentions is something else, thus making the news you mentioned earlier in this thread, more interesting.  

Edit:* (added ?)

The appointment she is talking about is not the Warden. If the Warden dislikes Morrigan he/she might never even trigger the quest, and in that case the Warden would never go back to Flemeth.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 24 février 2011 - 09:25 .

[Wulfram]

GODzilla_GSPB wrote...

Riloux wrote...

I think they ran from Ostagar to Lothering, stayed there a while hence "Why didn't we run sooner!?" then Lothering was attacked and somehow instantly destroyed while they were just getting out.

This. You can see the conflict in the demo. I guess when the younger Hawke brother returned from Ostagar he pressed to flee Lothering. But Hawke (player character) somehow stalled, thus the arguing at the beginning of the real prologue.

My reading of that conversation was that they were late leaving because they were waiting for Carver (and non-mageHawke) to return.

[Vicious]

The Blight eats the land as it goes. The reason you didn't see it in DA2?

Too time consuming. But suck it up, because the dead landscape of the beginning of DA2 is exactly how the blighted lands looked all along.

Bioware doesn't have unlimited resources. At least they won't until Old Republic comes out and they make millions.

Modifié par Vicious, 24 février 2011 - 09:44 .

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Insom wrote...

I figure they arrived in lothering right after the warden left and got out of there. The destruction of lothering begins right when you leave for your first main quest I think and by the time you're done it's wiped out.

Exactly,  until the warden's first main quest is finished Lothering is still standing.  Carver was at Ostagar and seems to be a chicken **** and ran.  I knew I wasn't going to like him.   Loghain also went through Lothering before the warden ever arrived, so there was time to get from Ostagar back to Lothering for Hawke or Carver to gather their family and get out of dodge. 

Or Carver and Hawke were part of Loghain's troops?  Also did all of you catch 'Captain Varel' which Aveline mentions.  I was like what?

[JensenBakura]

David Gaider wrote...

tuejmccoy wrote...

for me at least.

I mean both Hawke(if not mage) and the Warden were at Ostagar. While Warden was incapacitated, woke up next morning (or evening, cant tell for sure) and then went to Lorthering from the Korcari Wilds, which are further away from Lothering than Ostagar.
She arrived in Lothering in no hurry, killed some bandits, who misstook her mage robes for the uniform of the local brothel, killed more bandits, bears, spiders, darkspawn, made some traps, some posion, some health potions, intimdated nuns, started a bar fight, recruited Ms. Stabbity and sten a.s.o. And at this point the occupants of Lothering were still uncertain about their options, discusing them in front of the chantry. Noone was in a hurry to leave, some were more concerned about some pests on their fields more than bout the darkspawn. Hell the nuns were still preaching in the chantry.

Meanwhile Hawke was RUNNING since Ostagar, arrived barely in time to grab his/her mother and sister and flee the immidiate darkspawn danger. The darkspawn didnt only had time to flatten Lothering but also to blight-o-form the lands.

TL;DR: The timelines of events in both stories seem to diiffer quiet much

"Running since Ostagar" is not the same as "we ran directly here after the battle".

They (or simply Carver) got there as soon as they could, while evading darkspawn, and arrived well after the Warden (who, at this point in time, would have been completing his/her first major world quest). I suppose we could have Carver and/or the player stop and outline exactly what they've been up to since Ostagar, but I'm not sure who that would be of interest to aside from people who like to call everything that isn't explicitly explained to them a plothole.

Yeah that all makes sense - oh well, I was almost right.  

I'm sure some people enjoy whining or the sake of whining, but I honestly do over-think these things, partially because I have a time line fetish, and enjoy it when a cool story stays true to a believable time line (as in this case).

I love trying to figure out when something happened in relation to other events.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

SkyWard20 wrote...

silver-crescent wrote...

Really? That's pretty stupid. I mean if he is a mage he needs to stay and take care of his mother/sister, but if he is a rogue/warrior they don't need him anymore?

it's not smart to go to ostagar as an apostate.

You'd think apostate mages would have figured out by now to steal a few circle tower mage robes!!!  The mage from the tower is missing a grand business opportunity right here along with his illegal lyrium trade.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Wulfram wrote...

The Hawkes say the Templars already left, who were showing no signs of imminent departure when the Warden was there.

If I remember right, Ser Bryant says he is there to defend refugess until they all leave and then the Templars would be leaving.  The wardens arrive just after Loghain passes through and he orders the Bann of Lothering to march with him.  The only explanation is that Hawke/Carver were with Loghain's troops.

[Mr. Gerbz]

NiHau wrote...

mjharper wrote...

Ah, but do you remember Morrigan saying that we shouldn't go back to Ostagar to look for survivors, because they had all been dragged underground?

So obviously Hawke and Carver were taken to a distant deep roads prison and staged a brilliant (and time-consuming) escape. Which we will be able to play through in a DLC.

Problem solved ;-)

aint you some dev friend or someting ?

It's a spy! GET 'IM!

[tuejmccoy]

DreGregoire wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

(1.) "Running since Ostagar" is not the same as "we ran directly here after the battle".

(2.) while evading darkspawn, and arrived well after the Warden (who, at this point in time, would have been completing his/her first major world quest).

1. Exactly!

2. If they had to avoid fighting I would think they might have had to do a lot of back tracking and going around areas. I'm exhausted thinking about it. LOL

Note: LOL I answered before reading responses to the original post and then I realized I could have just used David's response, so you all get two responses from me.

I still have my problems to wrap my mind around this whole idea, but fine, lets speculate, what happened. Maybe someone gets the whole thing right in the end.

The sole purpose of Ostagar is to defend the fertile Hinterlands north of it from the Chasind Wilders coming from the Korcari Wilds south of it. Except now it's the darkspawn, not the wilders. The Hinterlands lay between Lothering and Ostagar. So as long as Ostagar stands there shouldn't be any darkspawn or at least not many in the Hinterlands. Surely some straglers can bypass Ostagar, but not any major groups of darkspawn.

Now if u are inside the fortress and decide to flee, the moment the king has fallen, if u can leave the Fortress to the north and reach the Hinterlands you should be relatively safe, since the horde probably wouldn't have surrounded the fortress yet at this point and would be too busy with the fortress itself to send anyone after you. In fact I believe that is the way Wynne got out of Ostagar and was able to reach the Circle before its lockdown and Wardens arrival.

So here is what i think happened after the king died: the battle took place in the valley in front of the gates of Ostagar(I think you could see the gates behind the army in the cutscene), so the defenders should be able to let some survivors of the initial battle inside and then close the gates stopping the horde or at least slowing it down. Thereafter the horde would probably start surrounding the fortress, since otherwise their whole assault would be kinda pointless, when they are finished there should be only 3 groups of survivors left:
 
Group A: The ones, who managed to escape the fortress before it got surrounded, they shouldn't  have any major roblems surviving it, and should probably be on the way to Lothering.

Group B: The ones, that are now defending the fortress, caught between the darkspawn pressing from the gates and the ones pressing from the tower of Ishal's basements. If these guys dont find some extremely convinient secret passage out of the fortress, they are pretty much all dead meat in the near future.

Group C: Some lucky guys laying down in the valley, looking dead, praying to the maker, that the darkspawn don't get the idea of checking their life signs or making sure they are dead.

I've got no idea if the darkspawn would concetrate all their efforts on killing the remaining defenders or would allready dispatch some groups to hunt the Hinterlands, lets assume the later.

So basicaly Hawke(= Carver from now on, so i don' have to write down all the possibilities every time) is in one of the groups. If he was in group A he would probably reach Lothering before Warden and we wouldn't have any prologue, guess its not the case.

He could be in Group B, so he defended Ostagar for some hours, maybe even days, and got out of it alive with some plot armor, deus ex machina or w/e. then got home way too late, evading all the darkspawn hunting parties and fled with his family.

He could also be in group C, but his flight here is even less likely than in group B. I mean, if we assume there are 2 Hawkes on the field both could feint death? both would be lucky enough to fool the darkspawn? both were lucky enough not to end up as food for the darkspawn or being dragged down to the deep roads? both could sneak out of there and avoid any darkspawn hunting parties?, kind of unlikely.

So my best bet is: Hawke stayed and ostagar, got out of there with a miracle(hmmm, Flemeth ex machina?), managed to get home and flee burning Lothering. For some reason the rest of the Hawkes didn't split up, but were waiting all together for the lost son. That is the exact reason, why it's so difficult to wrap my mind around this whole story, it seems so damn unlikely without any involvement of some major powers. Also how Aveline and Wesley fled Ostagar is completely beyond me.

So if anyone got more playusible ideas, let me know, because this one and the ones suggested bfore kinda aren't helping.

[GODzilla]

Zalocx wrote...

GODzilla_GSPB wrote...

And about the landscape: How much did we see of the surroundings at
Lothering in DAO? Next to nothing. Yes I agree that it does not fit many
of what we've seen of Ferelden in DAO. And yes it's probably a
continuity problem.

The words of a Bann in the Dererim tavern during the Landsmeet quests on the Blightlands:

"Its like the ground rotted beneath your feet, pestilence and darkspawn stalk the land  until even the crows grow sick with the stench of carrion"

The reason the Area looks radically different is probably because thats what true Blightlands look like. We never saw those in Origins, always being just north of the Horde or fighting in places (Ostragar/Denerim) where the Horde had just arrived and not had time to properly corrupt the land

Even better, thanks for the heads up.

[Kromex]

This seems to be alternate Thedas-for example Rogues have magic powers now.