Jowan is weak (which is forgivable) whiny (which is not) and self-centered. Jowan is the kind of guy who makes home made bombs for fun, blows up his house, kills his parents and then asks for mercy because he didn't mean to and he's now an orphan. The Original Poster has him pegged.
Jowan...
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, nov. 14 2009 11:51
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#52
Posté 16 novembre 2009 - 07:46
MBirkhofer
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As many mentioned, Jowan is the exemplar of why some mages should be made tranquil.
He is completely incapable of taking any responsibility for his actions.
He is weak minded, but has the power of a mage.
He makes many mistakes. Turning to blood magic. As if he needed more power, with his incredibly poor judgment. Kills templars, lies about it. Poisons the Arl, provoking Connor's temptation by the desire demon.
My rogue made the mistake of giving him a second chance to redeem himself after meeting him, but after going to Denerim and finding the templar in the prison, its clear she should have killed him. Appearently, making amends doesn't involve mentioning having killed them, or getting a few of them sent to be tortured to death.
Jorwan would not be able to stand up to any demon. given time, he will become an abomination.
He is completely incapable of taking any responsibility for his actions.
He is weak minded, but has the power of a mage.
He makes many mistakes. Turning to blood magic. As if he needed more power, with his incredibly poor judgment. Kills templars, lies about it. Poisons the Arl, provoking Connor's temptation by the desire demon.
My rogue made the mistake of giving him a second chance to redeem himself after meeting him, but after going to Denerim and finding the templar in the prison, its clear she should have killed him. Appearently, making amends doesn't involve mentioning having killed them, or getting a few of them sent to be tortured to death.
Jorwan would not be able to stand up to any demon. given time, he will become an abomination.
#53
Posté 16 novembre 2009 - 08:08
JamesX
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There seems to be some confusing about what Jowan did.
1) He didn't study Blood Magic for power. He studied it because well everyone else is dabble in it so he tried it. The extra curricular activity has been going on for a very long time. In the Circle of Tower Quest it seems that alot of blood mages didn't do it for "more power" they did it for the power to destroy the templars and gain their freedom. Unfortunately their movement happens to be usurped/controlled by an powerful abomination.
2) Killing Templars, I got the impression that he was convinced by Al Howe's men he had to kill the templars to prove himself to them - with the lure that Al Hawe will arrange it for him to be accepted to the tower.
Keep in mind as far as Jowan is concerned the Templars are evil and are the enemy. They destroyed his life, they wanted to tranquil him for no reason other than because they are ignorant bigots. Plus these Templars are out to kill him - so it is a life and death struggle. Add to that the Templars (as far as he can imagine) probably also killed/hurt/destroyed the love of his life.
3) While Jowan did dabble in Blood Magic because everyonelse id doing it, Connor willingly entered a pact with a demon for the power to protect his family. The responsibility of knowledge should not be rested upon the teacher but on what the student do with it. By the same method you condemn Jowan you should also condemn Conner.
4) Jorwan at the end tried to do good with his blood mage powers. If you let him live you get random encounter where he tries to save the villagers from being killed. If you kill him because he is a blood mage, (I think, I never tried), the villagers turn hostile and try to defend him.
1) He didn't study Blood Magic for power. He studied it because well everyone else is dabble in it so he tried it. The extra curricular activity has been going on for a very long time. In the Circle of Tower Quest it seems that alot of blood mages didn't do it for "more power" they did it for the power to destroy the templars and gain their freedom. Unfortunately their movement happens to be usurped/controlled by an powerful abomination.
2) Killing Templars, I got the impression that he was convinced by Al Howe's men he had to kill the templars to prove himself to them - with the lure that Al Hawe will arrange it for him to be accepted to the tower.
Keep in mind as far as Jowan is concerned the Templars are evil and are the enemy. They destroyed his life, they wanted to tranquil him for no reason other than because they are ignorant bigots. Plus these Templars are out to kill him - so it is a life and death struggle. Add to that the Templars (as far as he can imagine) probably also killed/hurt/destroyed the love of his life.
3) While Jowan did dabble in Blood Magic because everyonelse id doing it, Connor willingly entered a pact with a demon for the power to protect his family. The responsibility of knowledge should not be rested upon the teacher but on what the student do with it. By the same method you condemn Jowan you should also condemn Conner.
4) Jorwan at the end tried to do good with his blood mage powers. If you let him live you get random encounter where he tries to save the villagers from being killed. If you kill him because he is a blood mage, (I think, I never tried), the villagers turn hostile and try to defend him.
Modifié par JamesX, 16 novembre 2009 - 08:17 .
#54
Posté 16 novembre 2009 - 08:29
Svest
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I'm starting to wonder if that templar in Howe's dungeon says different things based on what has happened in the game. There have been a couple people who have reported similar stories to what I saw and others are saying something different.
In my game, it was very clear that Jowan did that to him before the events at Redcliffe. That's how Howe was able to get him to poison the Arl. Howe got rid of witnesses, cleaned up the mess, and helped Jowan hide in exchange for poisoning Eamon.
Other people are saying he escaped while being escorted back to the circle. So does the templar say different things, or is someone mistaken?
Just for the record, in my game I was a mage and turned Jowan in to Irving (though Jowan never knew that), did not use his blood magic ritual to enter the fade, and convinced Eamon to turn him over to the Circle.
In my game, it was very clear that Jowan did that to him before the events at Redcliffe. That's how Howe was able to get him to poison the Arl. Howe got rid of witnesses, cleaned up the mess, and helped Jowan hide in exchange for poisoning Eamon.
Other people are saying he escaped while being escorted back to the circle. So does the templar say different things, or is someone mistaken?
Just for the record, in my game I was a mage and turned Jowan in to Irving (though Jowan never knew that), did not use his blood magic ritual to enter the fade, and convinced Eamon to turn him over to the Circle.
Modifié par Svest, 16 novembre 2009 - 08:31 .
#55
Guest_imported_beer_*
Posté 16 novembre 2009 - 08:34
Guest_imported_beer_*
Guest_imported_beer_*
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Ferelden Karaoke Nights.
Jowan: I am just a little boy, no body loves me.
PC : He is just a poor boy, from a poor family. Spare him his life from this monstrosity.
Jowan: Easy come, easy go. Will you let me go?
Templars: Bismillah! No, we will not let you go.
PC: Let him go!
Templars: No, no, no, no, no, no, no
Jowan: (Oh mama mia, mama mia) Mama mia, let me go
Beelzebub has a devil put aside for me, for me, for me
So you think you can stone me and spit in my eye
So you think you can love me and leave me to die
Oh, baby, can't do this to me, baby,
Just gotta get out, just gotta get right outta here
Jowan: I am just a little boy, no body loves me.
PC : He is just a poor boy, from a poor family. Spare him his life from this monstrosity.
Jowan: Easy come, easy go. Will you let me go?
Templars: Bismillah! No, we will not let you go.
PC: Let him go!
Templars: No, no, no, no, no, no, no
Jowan: (Oh mama mia, mama mia) Mama mia, let me go
Beelzebub has a devil put aside for me, for me, for me
So you think you can stone me and spit in my eye
So you think you can love me and leave me to die
Oh, baby, can't do this to me, baby,
Just gotta get out, just gotta get right outta here
Modifié par imported_beer, 16 novembre 2009 - 08:35 .
#56
Posté 16 novembre 2009 - 08:39
CoarseDragon
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I feel sorry that he lost his love and I wonder if he is foolishly and perhaps unconsciously using Blood Magic to ease his own pain. Kind of a split personality then he realizes what he has done and is sorry for it.
#57
Posté 16 novembre 2009 - 08:46
Ottakar
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I think some people seem to believe the templar in Howe's dungeon is talking about events that happen after redcliffe, as in he was hurt escorting Jowan back to the mage tower from redcliffe. I'm almost certain he is actually refer to events before that, I think the templars tracked down Jowan after the mage origin but were ambushed by Howe's men and this particular one captured. They then convinced Jowan to poison the Arl. We dont hear what happend to Jowan after redcliffe I dont think.
#58
Posté 21 novembre 2009 - 03:50
AKofC
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Yeah. Jowan is cool and is a good written NPC.He would make an excellent companion really.
#59
Posté 21 novembre 2009 - 03:54
Varenus Luckmann
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You cannot define people in the manner of "the elves are a lithe, pointy eared people who excel at poverty".ComTrav wrote...
"Whiny little turd" is accurate but maybe a little simplistic. I think he uses the Whiny Little Turd act to get out of trouble to continue his Evil Blood Magic.
#60
Posté 21 novembre 2009 - 04:15
MisterGrizz
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I had the Arl Eamon execute him, "D****** him with faint praise." I believe was what he told me.
If I there had been an option to, my Human Noble Rogue would have slit his throat himself (I didn't notice the murder him in his cell option earlier may not have took that though as I wouldn't have had the true picture just yet). My characters a good enough fellow but he doesn't suffer dangerous fools such as that by any means. No amount of naivete can simply wash away the harm done, besides there's no point giving him to the circle he'd probably just wig out and escape again. I'm just sad I didn't get to see his execution to be sure he was done for.
And yes that means I should feel the same way about Connor except there is one large difference, Connor is a small boy manipulated into a pact with a demon, I mean seriously we routinely cause children to believe truly in several silly things Santa, Easter Bunny, how unique and special they are, etc. Whereas Jowan is a full grown man that has merely fooled himself.
Are you sad there wasn't an option to straight up murder the girl in recruiting Shale even if you did get the demon to appear and not possess her, after all she also talked with demons?
I'm sure some of my other characters might be more sympathetic my Commoner Dwarf will probably do that or just murder him in his cell, he's funny that way.
If I there had been an option to, my Human Noble Rogue would have slit his throat himself (I didn't notice the murder him in his cell option earlier may not have took that though as I wouldn't have had the true picture just yet). My characters a good enough fellow but he doesn't suffer dangerous fools such as that by any means. No amount of naivete can simply wash away the harm done, besides there's no point giving him to the circle he'd probably just wig out and escape again. I'm just sad I didn't get to see his execution to be sure he was done for.
And yes that means I should feel the same way about Connor except there is one large difference, Connor is a small boy manipulated into a pact with a demon, I mean seriously we routinely cause children to believe truly in several silly things Santa, Easter Bunny, how unique and special they are, etc. Whereas Jowan is a full grown man that has merely fooled himself.
Are you sad there wasn't an option to straight up murder the girl in recruiting Shale even if you did get the demon to appear and not possess her, after all she also talked with demons?
I'm sure some of my other characters might be more sympathetic my Commoner Dwarf will probably do that or just murder him in his cell, he's funny that way.
#61
Posté 21 novembre 2009 - 05:23
Tankenminnet
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I decided to let the Arl decide his fate since it was he who had suffered the most from his hand. It resulted in execution and Jowan took it like a man.
#62
Posté 23 mai 2010 - 01:50
Emerald Melios
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imported_beer wrote...
Jowan was awesome. Here was this guy who grew up with his own parents resenting him, whose buddy (you) got to do your harrowing way before he did, and whose only romantic love is a fobidden thing and doesn't last long. No wonder the guy is messed up- he thinks the world OWES him because it didn't even give him the things to which most people would believe they were entitled. And then he gets petulant when he gets caught because- by gum, can't he get SOMETHING?!!
He is far more nuanced than any NPC I have met in the recent past- most of them are so.singular in purpose. Jowan was very..human. He was awesomely written. Sometimes I felt like flinging a heavy object on his head. Other times I wanted to sympathize with him because I was starting to feel like Jowan there for a bit.
They really should've let you conscript him as a companion. It's not like he would've been any worse than Morrigan or Wynne.
#63
Posté 23 mai 2010 - 05:57
old book
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I liked the writing and voice acting, hated the character.
Yes, he whines.
In the Mage origin, he's your "friend" who asks you to help him do something that will almost certainly get you killed or made tranquil yourself. He lies to your face, several times, after asking you to risk your life for him. Is he naive enough to think no one will figure out you helped him escape? Does he think you're a chump and won't realize what the Templars will do to you if you help him?
Of course, your character never gets a chance to say "You're asking me to throw away my life for you", so maybe your character is a chump.
He does grow up eventually. He agrees to help save Connor, and to submit to judgement. He doesn't attack the Templars on the way back to the tower; the Templar in Howe's dungeon has been there since the first time Jowan was captured. If you set him free, he tries to do good, at least for a while.
He's still a liar, and a user, at least before Redcliff. And I'd still like to have seen him as a companion, so long as my Mage characters got a chance to tell him off.
Yes, he whines.
In the Mage origin, he's your "friend" who asks you to help him do something that will almost certainly get you killed or made tranquil yourself. He lies to your face, several times, after asking you to risk your life for him. Is he naive enough to think no one will figure out you helped him escape? Does he think you're a chump and won't realize what the Templars will do to you if you help him?
Of course, your character never gets a chance to say "You're asking me to throw away my life for you", so maybe your character is a chump.
He does grow up eventually. He agrees to help save Connor, and to submit to judgement. He doesn't attack the Templars on the way back to the tower; the Templar in Howe's dungeon has been there since the first time Jowan was captured. If you set him free, he tries to do good, at least for a while.
He's still a liar, and a user, at least before Redcliff. And I'd still like to have seen him as a companion, so long as my Mage characters got a chance to tell him off.
#64
Posté 23 mai 2010 - 07:26
Chuvvy
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Rattleface wrote...
Hah, I love Jowan. He's probably one of my favorite characters in the game.
This I like him, apperently I'm one of the few.
@old book
He got cut as a companion, he was meant to be on early on in development.
Modifié par Slidell505, 23 mai 2010 - 07:28 .
#65
Posté 23 mai 2010 - 07:30
Chuvvy
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imported_beer wrote...
Ferelden Karaoke Nights.
Jowan: I am just a little boy, no body loves me.
PC : He is just a poor boy, from a poor family. Spare him his life from this monstrosity.
Jowan: Easy come, easy go. Will you let me go?
Templars: Bismillah! No, we will not let you go.
PC: Let him go!
Templars: No, no, no, no, no, no, no
Jowan: (Oh mama mia, mama mia) Mama mia, let me go
Beelzebub has a devil put aside for me, for me, for me
So you think you can stone me and spit in my eye
So you think you can love me and leave me to die
Oh, baby, can't do this to me, baby,
Just gotta get out, just gotta get right outta here
Epic.
#66
Posté 23 mai 2010 - 11:28
Mikka-chan
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He's a good character. Likeable? Well, that's something else entirely, and I don't think he's really meant to be likeable. He's not even all that sympathetic: pitiful, definitely, but sympathetic? I'm not sure. The thing is, the order of the events is muddled.
From what we can understand, Uldred (who I am sure I spelled wrong) was sussing out potential recruits in the blood-magic ways. Ones he thought were controllable/useful later on, he kept quiet about, ones he didn't got turned in to the Templers. Was Jowan approached by Uldred like that? Was he going to be turned in to a Tranquil because he was weak willed and they didn't think he could do the Harrowing, because he was suspected of dabbling in blood magic, because Uldred didn't think he could be used in his later taking-over-the-circle plots? Did he turn to Blood Magic before or after he heard he was going to be made Tranquil?
I don't blame him for wanting to get away from the tower- I wouldn't blame any mage, particularly one with being made Tranquil being held over his head. I don't even really blame him for going malefactor: I can sit here and say 'well, not a good decision!' but what the hell else was he supposed to do? It's the only way he got out, really. His life just seems to sprawl out in a long rolling ball of bad decisions, though. You're either going to die or have your emotions taking away from you, so you turn your back on your bff and girlfriend and run. You're hunted down and you're either going to go back to situation A or be killed right there, so you kill first. You're blackmailed that you'll end up in situation A unless you do a spineless coward move, so you poison. The best one can say is at least he entered his end gracefully, consenting to the tower or execution without real complaint.
Reminds me of the worst part of my teenage years, really. Bad decisions spiral.
From what we can understand, Uldred (who I am sure I spelled wrong) was sussing out potential recruits in the blood-magic ways. Ones he thought were controllable/useful later on, he kept quiet about, ones he didn't got turned in to the Templers. Was Jowan approached by Uldred like that? Was he going to be turned in to a Tranquil because he was weak willed and they didn't think he could do the Harrowing, because he was suspected of dabbling in blood magic, because Uldred didn't think he could be used in his later taking-over-the-circle plots? Did he turn to Blood Magic before or after he heard he was going to be made Tranquil?
I don't blame him for wanting to get away from the tower- I wouldn't blame any mage, particularly one with being made Tranquil being held over his head. I don't even really blame him for going malefactor: I can sit here and say 'well, not a good decision!' but what the hell else was he supposed to do? It's the only way he got out, really. His life just seems to sprawl out in a long rolling ball of bad decisions, though. You're either going to die or have your emotions taking away from you, so you turn your back on your bff and girlfriend and run. You're hunted down and you're either going to go back to situation A or be killed right there, so you kill first. You're blackmailed that you'll end up in situation A unless you do a spineless coward move, so you poison. The best one can say is at least he entered his end gracefully, consenting to the tower or execution without real complaint.
Reminds me of the worst part of my teenage years, really. Bad decisions spiral.
#67
Posté 23 mai 2010 - 11:52
Rhys Cordelle
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It's his voice. It just... drives me nuts. And then there are characters all over Ferelden that sound exactly like him!
#68
Posté 24 mai 2010 - 01:57
Hyper Cutter
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One of the PC voices, too.Rhys Cordelle wrote...
It's his voice. It just... drives me nuts. And then there are characters all over Ferelden that sound exactly like him!
#69
Posté 24 mai 2010 - 02:14
Rhys Cordelle
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Hyper Cutter wrote...
One of the PC voices, too.Rhys Cordelle wrote...
It's his voice. It just... drives me nuts. And then there are characters all over Ferelden that sound exactly like him!
Yeah, I can't use that voice. Or the Anora sounding female voiceset for that matter.
