215 réponses à ce sujet

[maselphie]

Felfenix wrote...

maselphie wrote...

Buffs are fighting. A heal spell is as much gameplay as a fireball spell.

Limited resources. Learn to manage them. RPG101. What's the point of the health or mana bars if you can just fill them up anytime you want as much as you want?

Balance. Learn to have it. Developer101.

Who's asking for instant heals? No one.

Modifié par maselphie, 24 février 2011 - 01:09 .

[Sabariel]

TwistedComplex wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Felfenix wrote...

Managing tight or limited resources has always been what's defined skill in an RPG. Faster combat means more things happening, more variables to consider, etc. This adds depth to the combat. Slower healing and limited buffs mean you have to pick and choose how and when to use those resources, and not squander them. This also adds depth. If you find that you "need" them more than you can afford, it means there's a flaw in your gameplay. Whereas in Origins, you didn't have to think, consider, or adjust at all... You just needed to hit the potion button.

But not every gamer is about the combat and its depth. I'm more of a "story gamer" and I'd like to live to see BioWare's lovely stories.

Then play on easy

I didn't notice much difference between casual and normal in DAO. If it's the same way in DA2 then I'm slightly screwed in the mage department.

[Maria Caliban]

Sabariel wrote...

But not every gamer is about the combat and its depth. I'm more of a "story gamer" and I'd like to live to see BioWare's lovely stories.

I found the demo easy but engaging. As I have no interest in a hard game unless there's a benefit, this is fine for me.

In the full release, there will be an easy mode, but as you obviously want to play the demo, why not talk about how to finish this fight. I know it can be done as many on this forum have done so.

What characters did you have?
What abilities did you give them?
How did you distribute their attribute points?
What tactics did you use?

[TwistedComplex]

maselphie wrote...

TwistedComplex wrote...

That depends. Do you enjoy fighting or managing buffs more?

Buffs are fighting. A heal spell is as much gameplay as a fireball spell.

I'm not gonna sit here and pretend that combat in Origins was fun or original. It was painful. Choices, characters, and story are what sat my ass down infront of it 8 times.

There was no stratagy in Origins. Not when you could litteraly chain heal. When heal was on cooldown, group heal was off cooldown, when group heal was on cooldown, regenerate was off cooldown, when every heal was (somehow) on cooldown, i had 5 different kinds of potions

There is no fun in pausing every 2 seconds just to see what healing spell i should use. In DA2 i pause to position my next attack, not guzzle my 80th potion

Modifié par TwistedComplex, 24 février 2011 - 01:12 .

[Felfenix]

maselphie wrote...

Felfenix wrote...

maselphie wrote...

Buffs are fighting. A heal spell is as much gameplay as a fireball spell.

Limited resources. Learn to manage them. RPG101. What's the point of the health or mana bars if you can just fill them up anytime you want as much as you want?

Balance. Learn to have it. Developer101.

Who's asking for instant heals? No one.

Balance is not catering to the lowest common denominator. Balance is not "Everybody wins, no matter what they do." The fact some think it's too easy and some think it's too hard just illustrates the obvious gap in player skill. If you want to adjust that "balance", then set the game on casual for yourself, and many others will set it at normal or higher.

You don't consider for a moment that maybe you're flawed. That it's not "too hard", as many claim the ENTIRE thing was "too easy". Maybe you're just not very good at the game.

Modifié par Felfenix, 24 février 2011 - 01:13 .

[TwistedComplex]

Sabariel wrote...

TwistedComplex wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

Felfenix wrote...

Managing tight or limited resources has always been what's defined skill in an RPG. Faster combat means more things happening, more variables to consider, etc. This adds depth to the combat. Slower healing and limited buffs mean you have to pick and choose how and when to use those resources, and not squander them. This also adds depth. If you find that you "need" them more than you can afford, it means there's a flaw in your gameplay. Whereas in Origins, you didn't have to think, consider, or adjust at all... You just needed to hit the potion button.

But not every gamer is about the combat and its depth. I'm more of a "story gamer" and I'd like to live to see BioWare's lovely stories.

Then play on easy

I didn't notice much difference between casual and normal in DAO. If it's the same way in DA2 then I'm slightly screwed in the mage department.

Well... Im sorry to say that DA2 will only get more difficult. If you're playing on PC I'm sure there's a "kill all enemies" console command or some mods maybe

[Sabariel]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

But not every gamer is about the combat and its depth. I'm more of a "story gamer" and I'd like to live to see BioWare's lovely stories.

I found the demo easy but engaging. As I have no interest in a hard game unless there's a benefit, this is fine for me.

In the full release, there will be an easy mode, but as you obviously want to play the demo, why not talk about how to finish this fight. I know it can be done as many on this forum have done so.

What characters did you have?
What abilities did you give them?
How did you distribute their attribute points?
What tactics did you use?

I appreciate your help, but I finished the demo (by luck) with a rogue archer. I'm not yet ready to relive my healer mage experience

[Purgatious]

Also notice how theres is 5-7 second defensive buffs like barrier. Its to promote tactical use of things, and it will make higher difficulties very interesting, coupled with the new speed of the game.

[Sabariel]

Felfenix wrote...

maselphie wrote...

Felfenix wrote...

maselphie wrote...

Buffs are fighting. A heal spell is as much gameplay as a fireball spell.

Limited resources. Learn to manage them. RPG101. What's the point of the health or mana bars if you can just fill them up anytime you want as much as you want?

Balance. Learn to have it. Developer101.

Who's asking for instant heals? No one.

Balance is not catering to the lowest common denominator. Balance is not "Everybody wins, no matter what they do." The fact some think it's too easy and some think it's too hard just illustrates the obvious gap in player skill. If you want to adjust that "balance", then set the game on casual for yourself, and many others will set it at normal or higher.

You don't consider for a moment that maybe you're flawed. That it's not "too hard", as many claim the ENTIRE thing was "too easy". Maybe you're just not very good at the game.

Would having a scaling cooldown time be just as offensive to you? Or would that make you happy? Because it would make me happy. And if it made you happy too then everyone could be happy.

...And then I could stop regretting ever opening my mouth

Modifié par Sabariel, 24 février 2011 - 01:18 .

[maselphie]

Felfenix wrote...

You don't consider for a moment that maybe you're flawed. That it's not "too hard", as many claim the ENTIRE thing was "too easy". Maybe you're just not very good at the game.

I'll repeat what I said a page or so ago: it is not about being hard or easy. I completed the game fine, and will play it on Hard when I get it. But I agree with everyone when they say that the Heal spell takes too damn long to recharge. I never noticed the potions recharge, so that may be fine, but I remember repeatedly looking at Bethany's queue going WTF why isn't it charged? That seems like a flaw in design to me, especially if it's been made repeatedly clear that I am not the only one thus not the "lowest common denominator". Maybe  "average", but I really don't care what you or others think. I played the game fine and enjoyed it, but I will instantly install a hack that lowers the recharge time, even if by a little bit.

Also, news flash, Bioware has been whoring themselves to the lowest common denominator for years now.

Modifié par maselphie, 24 février 2011 - 01:23 .

[kyles3]

Felfenix wrote...

You don't consider for a moment that maybe you're flawed. That it's not "too hard", as many claim the ENTIRE thing was "too easy". Maybe you're just not very good at the game.

A little harsh, but a fair point. I'm actually pretty excited that I got thrashed a little bit in the demo. The strategy I used to romp through DA:O (use tactics to have my party heal themselves and then almost never direct them to do anything) is not going to work in DA2, so it's basically going to be a whole new thing to learn. Rad.

Modifié par kyles3, 24 février 2011 - 01:24 .

[GuiltySource]

First time through the demo I played a rogue, nobody died once. Second run through I was a mage. Everyone died at the Ogre except Aveline. Bethany made a better mage than I did. I'm cool with that.

Modifié par GuiltySource, 24 février 2011 - 01:32 .

[NYG1991]

I don't think the longer cooldown is going to be much of an issue. While I enjoy playing this type of game I kinda suck when it comes to micro management of the squads abilities. I typically just stick with my main guy thru each battle.



That said, I'll probably be playing on casual or normal. I don't think the cooldown will be reduced but on lower difficulty it won't be as needed.

[LastFadingSmile]

I don't mind that there's a cooldown on the potions, my bigger gripe was that the UI on the demo didn't really make it obvious to me that they were on cooldown. It might have just been bugged out or my graphic/gamma settings might have been an issue.



Either way, I'm not too worried about it, and anything that forces me to play smarter is a good thing, in my opinion. There were times in Origins when my whole party would crap themselves because I did something stupid, but I was able to survive just be chain-potting Alistair and whittling them down with his gimp tank DPS. It wasn't the most glorious victory.

[Ryenke]

Wow, Sabariel - the reaction here is amazing. (not in a good way, either)

For the record, I'm with you. I think the lengthy cool down periods on healing make the game less enjoyable. Especially for those who enjoy playing mages. I had the same problem you did at the Ogre when I played the mage - it ate Aveline alive and Carver was ripped to pieces by the hordes. Repeatedly. I think on the 6 time or so I finally beat it with luck. I would have Aveline or Carter take a health potion when they were down to 25% health or so and they would die WAY before they could take another. (Odd thing, when I replayed as rogue, no one even needed healing during that fight - I don't know why it was SO hard for the mage team.)

Options/toggle would be really nice - that would make the game hard enough for those who thing Nightmare with a 1 minute cool down on healing is fun - but enjoyable enough for us who do not want to micro-manage each and every move by every team member in a fight (or who feel like kiting is stupid and a waste of time.)

[Loc'n'lol]

Ryenke wrote...

it ate Aveline alive

And there is your problem, Aveline is by far the strongest character in the party at that point.

EDIT: this isn't meant as in "you suck, ltp". It's not that obvious, but you definitely dont want to let Aveline die in this fight.

Modifié par _Loc_N_lol_, 24 février 2011 - 02:34 .

[Xewaka]

I'm noticing a trend here. I believe the problem you experienced with the difficult Ogre fight it requiring more healing than the cooldowns allow - comes not from the healing cooldowns, but rather from the low DPS output of Carver against the Ogre.
I played that combat with Archer Hawke, Beth with heal as the learned skill, and tanking Aveline. I healed Aveline once when her HP dropped below 50%, and the Ogre was dead before the cooldown expired. Playing with Shield Warrior Hawke, he and Aveline juggled the Ogre aggro a bit to allow more space between taking damage for a better potion cooldown timing. The fight was longer but again, no real problems.
Since the people complaining about long healing cooldown played as a mage with Carver as a twohander companion, I'd dare say the problem is not with the healing, but with the suboptimal ratio of endurance/damage dealing of Carver. Matter of fact, there's another thread which mentions this specific problem, and how it was addressed is explained here on Woo's post. 

Short version: The problem in the Ogre fight is Carver, not the healing, and it's been addressed in the final build.

Modifié par Xewaka, 24 février 2011 - 02:39 .

[PinkShoes]

all the heal cool downs are too long. If people are planing to play as a healer mage its gunna be hard, im hoping the healing spec wont be like this. I never pla as a healer mage cause i like to hurt things to much but i hope, if even possible, bioware can make the cool downs for heal a bit shorter. Like Heal be 20 seconds or something like that so we dont rely on them as much but we cant dying because of it.

[wowpwnslol]

Sabariel wrote...

Please, please, please tell me this won't be present in the actual game... or will at least be a toggle. Because with the much more frenetic combat having a health potion cooldown that long is... counterproductive to say the least

Edit: Forget the part asking about it not being in the game. I'll ask this instead: Is it a toggle? Or does it increase/decrease with difficulty? Or is it set?

You are not meant to spam potions. Game looks easymode enough as is. TIme to learn to play.

[wowpwnslol]

Sabariel wrote...



Good for you?

That strategy was the first thing I tried. The Ogre ate Aveline. The Hurlocks ripped Carver apart. My healer stood there and watched with her finger up her... nose.

Sounds like a player issue to me.

[Atmosfear3]

You guys know you can kite more effectively now right? If your heal is on cooldown as are your potions, just kite them around to buy time. You also have CC abilities to buy time as well. Theres much more to the combat now than just spam all available abilities and twiddle your thumbs until cooldowns are up.

[Grodash]

1) Tank the ogre with Aveline.

2) Tank and kill the darkspawn with Hawke/Carver (I used 2h warrior hawke for that).

3) Grab incoming darkspawn away from Aveline's back (she only gets damage reduction in front of her, which should be the Ogre only), make sure to stay away from the Ogre otherwise while killing the trash to avoid his AoE.

4) When the last spawn dies, 2h warrior goes behind the Ogre and hack him happily to pieces taking near to no damage, it's not a problem going there with ~15-20% hp at this point, Aveline should be still good at around 50 if you didn't screw up.

5) ...

6) No potions used, profit.



It makes me wonder how people can complain about lack of tactical play due to game being more action-rpg alike, and then complain about too long cooldown on potions.

[maselphie]

Just figured out why the cooldown bugs me.



In DA:O, the amount of heal was determined by a reasonable recharge time BUT was mostly limited to your Mana. Wynne was always running on empty for me. That is why this is frustrating, it's a more concrete out-of-your-control-cant-do-nothing-about-it gameplay decision than the mana cost. Make the cost higher and put it back down to a reasonable cooldown, is my suggestion.

[FieryDove]

The first patch will undoubtedly make difficulties easier (except Nightmare perhaps).
What they should do is add more toggles! Hehe
(Low potion/heal cooldown toggle)

I will have to see how the full game pans out. Currently the only one who died in my games is Carver. If he would listen to my commands maybe he wouldn’t but no, he has to be HE-MAN I don’t need potions! I don’t want to fight adds just the big ugly…I am invinci…err meep. Sigh

Modifié par FieryDove, 24 février 2011 - 03:25 .

[ReallyRue]

I agree about the cooldowns. They would be better lower.

Thankfully I'm playing a mage and intend to take Anders (though to be safe I might spec her as a Spirit Healer too), so I'll have more healing tools at my disposal. I didn't have too much trouble with the ogre in the demo, but I did need to keep an eye on when I was healing and do it more strategically, timing the Heal and Potion cooldowns so that I can use one when the other isn't available.

I think I might be investing in the barrier/shield spells of the arcane tree. They protect both you and party.