171 réponses à ce sujet

[masseffect706]

Perhaps we could put mages in control, but ban blood magic?

[earl of the north]

Doesn't Varric say the Chantry is breaking rather than broken?

If you begin the break up of the Chantry in DA2, then its likely that you'll get separate successor Chantries......."taking the world to the brink of war", might be due to a religious war as the Andrastians nations battle to put their Divine on the Chantry 'throne', with the Tevinters and Qunari taking advantage of the conflict.

Backing the Chantry will probably lead to a mage revolt,  which may also cause the Chantry to fracture as local rulers/Divines fight their own Chantry vs Mages conflicts.


As for DA2, I will decide who to back depending on what character i'm playing.

Modifié par earl of the north, 25 février 2011 - 11:03 .

[Red Templar]

masseffect706 wrote...

Perhaps we could put mages in control, but ban blood magic?

Which would just mean the blood mages would practice in secret and have to rely more in mind control. Banning something isn't a fix without a practical way to enforce the ban and police violations.

earl of the north wrote...

Doesn't Varric say the Chantry is breaking rather than broken?

If
you begin the break up of the Chantry in DA2, then its likely that
you'll get separate successor Chantries......."taking the world to the
brink of war", might be due to a religious war as the Andrastians
nations battle to put their Divine on the Chantry 'throne', with the
Tevinters and Qunari taking advantage of the conflict..

It would probably be more like the Reformation, with various branches of the Andrastian faith breaking away from the Divine, than a war of succcession over the Divine's job I think.

Modifié par Red Templar, 25 février 2011 - 11:02 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

masseffect706 wrote...

Perhaps we could put mages in control, but ban blood magic?

How would that change anything?

Instead of a dick templar killing a apostate mage, it will be a dick mage killing an apostate mage.
Not to mention that the populace wouldn't like that idea.

[DKJaigen]

perhaps something in the line of catholic vs protestant schism. perhaps some new facts about the andrastian religion is revealed that cause people to question the current chantry's edicts and decision.

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

masseffect706 wrote...

Perhaps we could put mages in control, but ban blood magic?

How would that change anything?

Instead of a dick templar killing a apostate mage, it will be a dick mage killing an apostate mage.
Not to mention that the populace wouldn't like that idea.

no that wouldn't happen. a mage isn't bound by religious edicts and can see the world in grey tones instead of black and white like the templars. templars will kill any bloodmage regardless of intentions. a bloodmage with good intentions will only receive a boot on his ass with a stern warning from the mage-judge not to use bloodmagic again.

what the population thinks isn't relevant as they are extremely ignorant. as soon as templars are out of the picture the mages can easily create their own chantry and convince the common population in that their fews are the correct ones

[Augustei]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Making moral (or ANY decisions for that matter) without keeping in mind that Thedas is a medieval-like setting with ALL that it implies - is ill advised.


Some hate the Chantry/templars because they can judge mages based soley on what someone said.
Those same people forget that witness accounts is pretty much THE main type of evidence that was avilable at that time. It's not only the templars that judge based on witness testimony - EVERYONE does it. There is no CSI, no DNA analysis, no fingerprint ID. Heck, such a thing as "human rights" or "rules of engagment" didn't exist.

The people of Thedas work with what they have - the Landsmeet pretty much proves it, as practicly all evidence you brought was testimonies (except that paper signed by Loghain, but it was considered the weakest piece of evidence!). The number of weight of your witnesses was what won the case.

Similar thing with DSims and Aenerin. There is little that can be done NOW about such things, let alone back then. A smart police officer can kill in the field and avoid getting caught, even with all our modern forensic marvels. Resources and time are limited, there's plenty of cases to go around. Most cases will have only a basic forensic check.
With military matter, even with all of our rules, oversight and modern sensibilities, in war, horrible things continue to happen.
And yet some of us are appaled when something like this happens in medieval times?

Again, TheDAs is a setting that is technologicly, culturally and in many other ways different from our own. And too many people are too quick to judge without taking that into account.
By their own standards, they'd have to not only destroy the Chantry, but the whole worlds of Thedas.

The problem lies with the fact that mages are locked up as soon as they are discovered and not permitted the humans rights others are given and the true reasoning behind it is just rediculous. Not because they are dangerous or anything.. No its because they defyed the Emperor and had a protest. So the true reasoning behind why they are locked up is not a good one.

As for the whole getting possessed by demons thing.. Everyone can be possessed by demons in Thedas its just that since mages are powerful they are considered the ones who should be locked up... But then, what about Political leaders and Millitant Leaders.. They are even more powerful not in raw power but Political power and command over numeral forces power. If one of them was possessed by say... a pride demon. they would be considered far more dangerous then any Mage. So shouldn't they be locked up and guarded by the templars as well?

Mages should only be forced to learn basic discipline so they dont fall prey to demons. Then released from the tower and given proper rights and freedoms if you ask me.,


Back on topic though, Siding with the Templars and Chantry seems to both have its "evils" and downsides. Idk maybe its just me but Orsino seems like a very shady charecter. He is a Blood Mage, which in itself isn't bad.. but like I said when people are willing to use blood magic they have a habit of not placing limitations on themselves.. its not necessarily bad.. But people will begin to try out more fobidden practices if they practice one forbidden practice. (Just my opinion anyway).. And the particular people Orsino has following him... Well to put it lightly. Alot of them are nutters. Making sacrifices etc. Due to the fact that he is possibly the ruling body of said blood mages he should be responsable for their actions and they are representing him.. I mean back then, if a squad of Orlesian soldiers say.. were to cross the border into Nevarra and attack merchant caravans.. Who would the blame fall upon do you think? The squads commander or the nation of Orlais?

[Augustei]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

masseffect706 wrote...

Perhaps we could put mages in control, but ban blood magic?

How would that change anything?

Instead of a dick templar killing a apostate mage, it will be a dick mage killing an apostate mage.
Not to mention that the populace wouldn't like that idea.

The populance follows blindly they are rather foolish.. One day the world followed the tevinter gods, the next they follow Andreste.. One day Fereldan distrusted the Grey Wardens and agreed with Loghain that they were responsable for the kings death.. Then as soon as one is King they follow him.

There will be some initial resentment of the mages being in control but eventually they will come to terms with it and be like "That damned chantry, can't believe they did that those evil bastards!" or something like that... and if the mages fail then it will be "Those darn mages.. we should kill them all for what they tried on us"

[Augustei]

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

masseffect706 wrote...

Perhaps we could put mages in control, but ban blood magic?

How would that change anything?

Instead of a dick templar killing a apostate mage, it will be a dick mage killing an apostate mage.
Not to mention that the populace wouldn't like that idea.

no that wouldn't happen. a mage isn't bound by religious edicts and can see the world in grey tones instead of black and white like the templars. templars will kill any bloodmage regardless of intentions. a bloodmage with good intentions will only receive a boot on his ass with a stern warning from the mage-judge not to use bloodmagic again.

what the population thinks isn't relevant as they are extremely ignorant. as soon as templars are out of the picture the mages can easily create their own chantry and convince the common population in that their fews are the correct ones

Thats pretty much true.. The problem with the Templars is that majority of them are stuck in the belief that the divines word is the word of the maker and that what she says is fact and has to be done.. However the possible problem with putting mages in power is the tevinter situation where they will elevate themselves complete above society and politics will be decided by Mages etc.. Which frankly is worse Imo. Hopefully that doesn't happen

[Shinimas]

Bioware has a habit of portraying large political organizations as incompetent, both in particular members and as a whole.



But have we actually met any "good" blood mage so far? Nope. Practical impications of blood magic pretty much require sacrifices of living beings, cutting yourself has a limit and doesn't let you to get into it's full potential.



So it's safe to assume that any serious blood mage has the intention to cause harm to others in order to use his abilities.

[LobselVith8]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Making moral (or ANY decisions for that matter) without keeping in mind that Thedas is a medieval-like setting with ALL that it implies - is ill advised.


Some hate the Chantry/templars because they can judge mages based soley on what someone said.
Those same people forget that witness accounts is pretty much THE main type of evidence that was avilable at that time. It's not only the templars that judge based on witness testimony - EVERYONE does it. There is no CSI, no DNA analysis, no fingerprint ID. Heck, such a thing as "human rights" or "rules of engagment" didn't exist.

The people of Thedas work with what they have - the Landsmeet pretty much proves it, as practicly all evidence you brought was testimonies (except that paper signed by Loghain, but it was considered the weakest piece of evidence!). The number of weight of your witnesses was what won the case.

Similar thing with DSims and Aenerin. There is little that can be done NOW about such things, let alone back then. A smart police officer can kill in the field and avoid getting caught, even with all our modern forensic marvels. Resources and time are limited, there's plenty of cases to go around. Most cases will have only a basic forensic check.
With military matter, even with all of our rules, oversight and modern sensibilities, in war, horrible things continue to happen.
And yet some of us are appaled when something like this happens in medieval times?

Again, TheDAs is a setting that is technologicly, culturally and in many other ways different from our own. And too many people are too quick to judge without taking that into account.
By their own standards, they'd have to not only destroy the Chantry, but the whole worlds of Thedas.

The problem lies with the fact that mages are locked up as soon as they are discovered and not permitted the humans rights others are given and the true reasoning behind it is just rediculous. Not because they are dangerous or anything.. No its because they defyed the Emperor and had a protest. So the true reasoning behind why they are locked up is not a good one.

As for the whole getting possessed by demons thing.. Everyone can be possessed by demons in Thedas its just that since mages are powerful they are considered the ones who should be locked up... But then, what about Political leaders and Millitant Leaders.. They are even more powerful not in raw power but Political power and command over numeral forces power. If one of them was possessed by say... a pride demon. they would be considered far more dangerous then any Mage. So shouldn't they be locked up and guarded by the templars as well?

Mages should only be forced to learn basic discipline so they dont fall prey to demons. Then released from the tower and given proper rights and freedoms if you ask me.,


Back on topic though, Siding with the Templars and Chantry seems to both have its "evils" and downsides. Idk maybe its just me but Orsino seems like a very shady charecter. He is a Blood Mage, which in itself isn't bad.. but like I said when people are willing to use blood magic they have a habit of not placing limitations on themselves.. its not necessarily bad.. But people will begin to try out more fobidden practices if they practice one forbidden practice. (Just my opinion anyway).. And the particular people Orsino has following him... Well to put it lightly. Alot of them are nutters. Making sacrifices etc. Due to the fact that he is possibly the ruling body of said blood mages he should be responsable for their actions and they are representing him.. I mean back then, if a squad of Orlesian soldiers say.. were to cross the border into Nevarra and attack merchant caravans.. Who would the blame fall upon do you think? The squads commander or the nation of Orlais?

DA has been fairly good at creating multi-faceted characters. Just look at Loghain. I don't think the leaders of the Circle of Magi or the Order of Templars will be one-note or evil, but it'll likely have to do with where we stand on the issue. Clearly people are as divided on the issues between templars and mages as they are on whether Loghain is a good guy or a bad guy. If the devs are smart, there won't be an evil or bad choice in choosing to side with either the Chantry and its templars or the Circle and its mages. I'm certainty eager to see how an apostate Hawke is going to engage the mages of the Circle of Magi, and what difficulties will be addressed to emancipate the mages of Kirkwall.

XxDeonxX wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

masseffect706 wrote...

Perhaps we could put mages in control, but ban blood magic?

How would that change anything?

Instead of a dick templar killing a apostate mage, it will be a dick mage killing an apostate mage.
Not to mention that the populace wouldn't like that idea.

The populance follows blindly they are rather foolish.. One day the world followed the tevinter gods, the next they follow Andreste.. One day Fereldan distrusted the Grey Wardens and agreed with Loghain that they were responsable for the kings death.. Then as soon as one is King they follow him.

There will be some initial resentment of the mages being in control but eventually they will come to terms with it and be like "That damned chantry, can't believe they did that those evil bastards!" or something like that... and if the mages fail then it will be "Those darn mages.. we should kill them all for what they tried on us"

If the refugees aren't getting the help from the current establishment, I can imagine that the mages can easily change their perspective by making positive changes in their lives through providing food and healing. It's not like we don't already see how the Hero of Ferelden can command admiration and respect from the people regardless of being a mage of the Circle of Ferelden, even when the opportunity to become the new Arl of Amaranthine arises. A mage becoming a high noble, governing an entire arling, and still retaining his popularity with the people. I don't see why Hawke couldn't accomplish the same if he does something important enough to warrant being named the Champion of Kirkwall. A mage outside the reign of the Chantry and its templars being recognized as a hero would likely be the first step to having the power to make a real change in how the people of Kirkwall view mages.

XxDeonxX wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

masseffect706 wrote...

Perhaps we could put mages in control, but ban blood magic?

How would that change anything?

Instead of a dick templar killing a apostate mage, it will be a dick mage killing an apostate mage.
Not to mention that the populace wouldn't like that idea.

no that wouldn't happen. a mage isn't bound by religious edicts and can see the world in grey tones instead of black and white like the templars. templars will kill any bloodmage regardless of intentions. a bloodmage with good intentions will only receive a boot on his ass with a stern warning from the mage-judge not to use bloodmagic again.

what the population thinks isn't relevant as they are extremely ignorant. as soon as templars are out of the picture the mages can easily create their own chantry and convince the common population in that their fews are the correct ones

Thats pretty much true.. The problem with the Templars is that majority of them are stuck in the belief that the divines word is the word of the maker and that what she says is fact and has to be done.. However the possible problem with putting mages in power is the tevinter situation where they will elevate themselves complete above society and politics will be decided by Mages etc.. Which frankly is worse Imo. Hopefully that doesn't happen

I think it should be possible to emancipate the mages without turning Kirkwall into another Tevinter.

[LexXxich]

So, the choice goes between Blood Mages gunning for power, Chantry with it's Templars gunning for power, and Qunari gunning for power.

Can't we just sell all the DLC stuff and go back to Ferelden? It's a great place now, with Blight gone and Mother dead.

[Lotion Soronarr]

XxDeonxX wrote...
The problem lies with the fact that mages are locked up as soon as they are discovered and not permitted the humans rights others are given and the true reasoning behind it is just rediculous. Not because they are dangerous or anything.. No its because they defyed the Emperor and had a protest. So the true reasoning behind why they are locked up is not a good one.

No, the reasoning is not redicolous. Mages are exceptionally dangerous to others and themselves.
And I say again - such a thing like "basic human rights" does not exist as a concept back then. And if it does, the mages have a few - tehy are restricted with rights that would cause problems.
We do things like that today in our modern, sensible world too. We restrict rights if we think i'ts necessary.

As for the whole getting possessed by demons thing.. Everyone can be possessed by demons in Thedas its just that since mages are powerful they are considered the ones who should be locked up... But then, what about Political leaders and Millitant Leaders.. They are even more powerful not in raw power but Political power and command over numeral forces power. If one of them was possessed by say... a pride demon. they would be considered far more dangerous then any Mage. So shouldn't they be locked up and guarded by the templars as well?

Mages should only be forced to learn basic discipline so they dont fall prey to demons. Then released from the tower and given proper rights and freedoms if you ask me.,

Non-mages can ONLY be possesed under specialy circumstances, and when they are, they are nowhere near as powerfull as posessed mages. Hence, the chance of nbeing possesed and the danger that comes wiht it, is FAR greater with mages.

Just training won't fix the problem. No training makes one immune to possession or corruption.
No world leader or noble would want mages running around free (ESPECIALLY blood mages) - they are a threat to their power and popularity among the people.
In other words "let the mages free" is not a realistic solution.

[Lotion Soronarr]

XxDeonxX wrote...
The populance follows blindly they are rather foolish.. One day the world followed the tevinter gods, the next they follow Andreste.. One day Fereldan distrusted the Grey Wardens and agreed with Loghain that they were responsable for the kings death.. Then as soon as one is King they follow him.

There will be some initial resentment of the mages being in control but eventually they will come to terms with it and be like "That damned chantry, can't believe they did that those evil bastards!" or something like that... and if the mages fail then it will be "Those darn mages.. we should kill them all for what they tried on us"

No actually. You believe people mistrust mages only because of the Chantry. But that is a very limited and narrow view.
As DG himself pointed out, the pesants have completley legitimate reasons to mistrust and fear mages.

You also believe all people are sheep. Some are. but not all. There was struggle in Ferelden, civil war. And most didnt even believe the Grey Wardens were involved in the kings death.
There really is no massive population pressure or will to change anything. The poeple are happy with the way it is. Tehre are even plenty of mages who are happy wiht the way things are.
You cannot lead a revolution when only 2% of the populace wants that revolution. It is doomed to fail.

[Lotion Soronarr]

XxDeonxX wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
How would that change anything?

Instead of a dick templar killing a apostate mage, it will be a dick mage killing an apostate mage.
Not to mention that the populace wouldn't like that idea.

no that wouldn't happen. a mage isn't bound by religious edicts and can see the world in grey tones instead of black and white like the templars. templars will kill any bloodmage regardless of intentions. a bloodmage with good intentions will only receive a boot on his ass with a stern warning from the mage-judge not to use bloodmagic again.

what the population thinks isn't relevant as they are extremely ignorant. as soon as templars are out of the picture the mages can easily create their own chantry and convince the common population in that their fews are the correct ones

Thats pretty much true.. The problem with the Templars is that majority of them are stuck in the belief that the divines word is the word of the maker and that what she says is fact and has to be done.. However the possible problem with putting mages in power is the tevinter situation where they will elevate themselves complete above society and politics will be decided by Mages etc.. Which frankly is worse Imo. Hopefully that doesn't happen

No.

Both of you are starting from several false assumptions and forgetting some things.

1) That mages policing mages will be free to set up laws and rules as they see fit. No. They would be pressured by others to mantain certain laws. Blood magic will still be illegal - death of tranquilisation will be something everyone will demand. Blood Magic is like hand-held nuke and no sane individual wants to place that power in the hands of a single person.

2) That templars aren't black-and-white. Laws are laws. It's as simple as that. Police officers aren't bound by religious dogma, and they can still kill unjustly and get away with it. They still have to follow the law. If mages police themselves there WILL be dick mages among that force, and mages WILL suffer at hte hands of others mages, just like non-mages can suffer at the hands of non-mages.

3) What the population thinks matters. Always has and always will.Rulers have to follow hte will of the people or risk rebellion and civil war. You can call the population ignorant, but is that true? I'd argue they know more about living in TheDas than you. In fact, I'd call your views rather ignorant of the bigger picture.

[TheCreeper]

What I worry about is that supporting Mages in Kirkwall will led to the city being a pariah state within the free marches and Thedas.

[LobselVith8]

XxDeonxX wrote...

Poor chantry.. It has so much hate coming its way =/ lol

I imagine it'll likely come into play when we're dealing with an apostate Hawke or Bethany, and other apostates like Merrill and Anders. I don't think someone like Merrill, who was raised free of the Chantry and who likely holds a similar view to the Chantry and the templars (since templars are referenced in the Dalish codex) we'll possibly have at least two or three characters who don't think mages should be imprisoned simply because they have magical ability. I think it'll be a great precedent if Hawke can free the mages and allow Kirkwall to thrive as a city-state where mages are free, as Parlathan wanted.

Considering there's a refugee camp twice as big as the city, I can imagine mages can help the Ferelden people who fled their nation a great deal. Their actions can turn around the anti-mage stigma that's been promoted, and establish a haven where they don't have to be afraid of being who they are. I imagine Merrill and Anders would be in support of this, as well as Bethany. Mages establishing a safe and progressive home, and becoming the new power of eastern Thedas, would finally give them agency over their own lives.

[LobselVith8]

TheCreeper wrote...

What I worry about is that supporting Mages in Kirkwall will led to the city being a pariah state within the free marches and Thedas.

The mistrust of mages comes from the Chantry. We know the difference between how the Chasind and the people of Rivain see mages, and how Andrastian societies see them is because of how they're taught. We hear mages are "cursed" a few times in the Magi Origin by Andrastians, so I'd imagine mages acting as agents of change (in a beneficial way) would sway the opinions of the refugees who are living at Kirkwall. If the Qunari are planning on invading, or already doing so, mages will make all the difference in winning the war against them, as they did in the New Exalted Marches. If mages are instrumental in keeping the Qunari back, I can see some unexpected and transcendent change follow. It'll likely change people's views as the Hero of Ferelden from the Circle of Magi was able to be seen as a champion who had the Maker's blessing despite being a mage.

[Lotion Soronarr]

LobselVith8 wrote...
The mistrust of mages comes from the Chantry.

No.

[TheCreeper]

The misturst of mages goes back to the Tevinter Imperium and Andraste's rebellion (which is ironic when you consider Andraste herself was likely a mage)

[Maelora]

As long as we get the chance to kill lots and lots of Chantry fools I really don't care.

Everything about them in DAO filled me with hatred and loathing.

Modifié par Maelora, 27 février 2011 - 03:31 .

[swk3000]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
The mistrust of mages comes from the Chantry.

No.

Agreed. While we mainly see the Chantry as the bad guy in promoting mistrust of Mages, the fact is that they're not the only source. Consider:

1. Just about every Blood Mage of note has gotten his power from others. I can't remember the exact one, but I remember a Codex Entry mentioning that some Tevinter ritual was powered with the blood of over 100 slaves. Codex entries on the First Blight talk of rivers of blood flowing down Tevinter Altars. The fact is, the Blood Mage's that the average Fereldan citizen hears of are the ones that get their power by harming or killing others. This has nothing to do with the Chantry. Are there Blood Mage's who keep their power quiet, and only use their own blood to power their spells? Maybe. However, this is a case of a few bad apples spoiling the bunch.

2. When you can use blood to power spells, suddenly people seem a lot less like people. Probably the only Blood Mage that we've met that hasn't been all-out evil is Jowan. Under normal circumstances, he keeps it quiet and doesn't use others to power his spells. However, when confronted after destroying his Phylactery, the only weapon he had that could get him free was Blood Magic, and he willingly used it. When you meet up with him again in Redcliffe, and Isolde is begging you not to kill Connor, Jowan immediately steps forward with a spell that would basically kill Isolde to save Connor, and does so with no problem. Jowan's attitude towards people starts off just like anyone else's, but as time goes on, he starts seeing people more as power sources than as people. And he was just 'dabbling'!

3. The Tevinter Imperium was basically built on Blood Magic. Since Andraste fought to free the Alamarri tribes (that would later unite to become Ferelden) from the Tevinter Imperium, there's a lot of bad blood there (no pun intended). Especially since the Tevinters had a slave trade for the sole purpose of having a ready source of blood to power their spells. The Tevinter Imperium is widely seen as evil by the average Ferelden, so anything that is endorsed by the Tevinter Imperium is viewed with mistrust.

4. Demons are a danger to anyone who dreams, but the will of a demon with the power of a Mage makes them a greater threat. This is a fact of life in Dragon Age, not something the Chantry came up with. Because a Mage taps into the Fade so readily ('Mana' is described as a measure of how well a Mage taps into the Fade to power their spells), they can easily attract the attention of Demons. Demons have shown an unusual fascination with the mortal world, and many of the more intelligent ones seek to experience it for themselves. Mage's are the easiest for a Demon to spot, and if successfully possessed, offer greater power than a non-mage could offer, so they are prime targets. In many cases, the only thing keeping a mage from being posessed is their own will. When the only thing standing between you and destruction is the will of a single person, you're going to be more than a little scared. What if the demon is stronger? Or can decieve the mage? Suddenly Magic seems more bad than good.

As Lotion Soronnar has said, the Chantry is not the only source promoting mistrust of Mage's; the very nature of Magic itself promotes even more mistrust.

[LobselVith8]

swk3000 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
The mistrust of mages comes from the Chantry.

No.

Agreed. While we mainly see the Chantry as the bad guy in promoting mistrust of Mages, the fact is that they're not the only source.

When we consider that the nation of Rivain and the Chasind tribes don't treat mages like the Andrastians do, I don't see how it's wrong to point out that calling mages cursed (Magi Origin) and blaming them for the Andrastian version of "original sin" doesn't cause mistrust.

swk3000 wrote...

Consider:

1. Just about every Blood Mage of note has gotten his power from others. I can't remember the exact one, but I remember a Codex Entry mentioning that some Tevinter ritual was powered with the blood of over 100 slaves. Codex entries on the First Blight talk of rivers of blood flowing down Tevinter Altars. The fact is, the Blood Mage's that the average Fereldan citizen hears of are the ones that get their power by harming or killing others. This has nothing to do with the Chantry. Are there Blood Mage's who keep their power quiet, and only use their own blood to power their spells? Maybe. However, this is a case of a few bad apples spoiling the bunch.

There are also Grey Warden mages who use blood magic and don't use slaves to power spells. The Hero of Ferelden can use blood magic. The fact is that simply because the Tevinter Magisters abused the abilities of magic doesn't mean "every Blood Mage of note" has done the same.

swk3000 wrote...

2. When you can use blood to power spells, suddenly people seem a lot less like people. Probably the only Blood Mage that we've met that hasn't been all-out evil is Jowan. Under normal circumstances, he keeps it quiet and doesn't use others to power his spells. However, when confronted after destroying his Phylactery, the only weapon he had that could get him free was Blood Magic, and he willingly used it. When you meet up with him again in Redcliffe, and Isolde is begging you not to kill Connor, Jowan immediately steps forward with a spell that would basically kill Isolde to save Connor, and does so with no problem. Jowan's attitude towards people starts off just like anyone else's, but as time goes on, he starts seeing people more as power sources than as people. And he was just 'dabbling'!

This is an inaccurate statement. Jowan doesn't simply see people as "power sources." He's remorseful over the actions he's done, and if he leaves Redcliffe, he devotes his time to protecting refugees as Master Levyn. When you reveal what happened to Connor, Jowan admits that the only way to save Connor would be to sacrifice Isolde so a mage can go into the Fade. Unless the Warden takes the risk of heading to the Circle and abandoning Redcliffe in the endeavor, Jowan's method is the only means of going into the Fade.

swk3000 wrote...

3. The Tevinter Imperium was basically built on Blood Magic. Since Andraste fought to free the Alamarri tribes (that would later unite to become Ferelden) from the Tevinter Imperium, there's a lot of bad blood there (no pun intended). Especially since the Tevinters had a slave trade for the sole purpose of having a ready source of blood to power their spells. The Tevinter Imperium is widely seen as evil by the average Ferelden, so anything that is endorsed by the Tevinter Imperium is viewed with mistrust.

And the Chantry of Andraste is built around a woman who fought Tevinter, who is viewed as the Bride of the Maker, and whose teachings have lead to mages being viewed as "cursed" and what amounts to imprisoning innocent people for what they might do. Considering the elves also fought Tevinter and didn't establish a stigma against mages, it's fair to point out that the Chantry is responsible for the mistrust we see in Andrastian societies that differs from the alternative societies out there that don't share their religious views.

swk3000 wrote...

4. Demons are a danger to anyone who dreams, but the will of a demon with the power of a Mage makes them a greater threat. This is a fact of life in Dragon Age, not something the Chantry came up with. Because a Mage taps into the Fade so readily ('Mana' is described as a measure of how well a Mage taps into the Fade to power their spells), they can easily attract the attention of Demons. Demons have shown an unusual fascination with the mortal world, and many of the more intelligent ones seek to experience it for themselves. Mage's are the easiest for a Demon to spot, and if successfully possessed, offer greater power than a non-mage could offer, so they are prime targets. In many cases, the only thing keeping a mage from being posessed is their own will. When the only thing standing between you and destruction is the will of a single person, you're going to be more than a little scared. What if the demon is stronger? Or can decieve the mage? Suddenly Magic seems more bad than good.

The fact is that the Andrastian societies have a negative attitude towards mages while we see other societies that don't share such a view. As for demons, anyone can be possessed - people, corpses, animals, and even trees. If you're concerned about possession, isn't that a point for mages to be properly trained in the use of their abilities, rather than subjugated to the point where they would make a deal with a demon rather than live under templar rule?

swk3000 wrote...

As Lotion Soronnar has said, the Chantry is not the only source promoting mistrust of Mage's; the very nature of Magic itself promotes even more mistrust.

That comment ignores the fundamental difference between the mistrust of mages in Andrastian nations and the completely different attitude towards magic we see and hear about in alternative societies that aren't part of the Chantry of Andraste. Clearly, magic doesn't automatically promote mistrust.

[DKJaigen]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

XxDeonxX wrote...
The problem lies with the fact that mages are locked up as soon as they are discovered and not permitted the humans rights others are given and the true reasoning behind it is just rediculous. Not because they are dangerous or anything.. No its because they defyed the Emperor and had a protest. So the true reasoning behind why they are locked up is not a good one.

No, the reasoning is not redicolous. Mages are exceptionally dangerous to others and themselves.
You keep assuming that. what evidence do you bring? most mages:  apostate or circle mage never turn into an abomination

And I say again - such a thing like "basic human rights" does not exist as a concept back then. that the mages rebel to their oppressors is simply a natural part of human society

Indeed thats why rebellion and the destruction of the old orders in our past let to democracy and human rights.


And if it does, the mages have a few - tehy are restricted with rights that would cause problems.
We do things like that today in our modern, sensible world too. We restrict rights if we think i'ts necessary.

As for the whole getting possessed by demons thing.. Everyone can be possessed by demons in Thedas its just that since mages are powerful they are considered the ones who should be locked up... But then, what about Political leaders and Millitant Leaders.. They are even more powerful not in raw power but Political power and command over numeral forces power. If one of them was possessed by say... a pride demon. they would be considered far more dangerous then any Mage. So shouldn't they be locked up and guarded by the templars as well?

Mages should only be forced to learn basic discipline so they dont fall prey to demons. Then released from the tower and given proper rights and freedoms if you ask me.,

Non-mages can ONLY be possesed under specialy circumstances, and when they are, they are nowhere near as powerfull as posessed mages.

Unfortunately we dont know this to be true . their is to few evidence in the game to support this. but their are cases that  possession happened even without a tear in the veil

Just training won't fix the problem. No training makes one immune to possession or corruption.
No world leader or noble would want mages running around free (ESPECIALLY blood mages) - they are a threat to their power and popularity among the people.

Thats a form of needless oppression mate. convincing ignorant people that they should follow you because you are the only one who can protect them from some imaginary enemy is the oldest trick of  tyrants
In other words "let the mages free" is not a realistic solution.

[DKJaigen]

swk3000 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
The mistrust of mages comes from the Chantry.

No.

Agreed. While we mainly see the Chantry as the bad guy in promoting mistrust of Mages, the fact is that they're not the only source. Consider:

1. Just about every Blood Mage of note has gotten his power from others. I can't remember the exact one, but I remember a Codex Entry mentioning that some Tevinter ritual was powered with the blood of over 100 slaves. Codex entries on the First Blight talk of rivers of blood flowing down Tevinter Altars. The fact is, the Blood Mage's that the average Fereldan citizen hears of are the ones that get their power by harming or killing others. This has nothing to do with the Chantry. Are there Blood Mage's who keep their power quiet, and only use their own blood to power their spells? Maybe. However, this is a case of a few bad apples spoiling the bunch.

2. When you can use blood to power spells, suddenly people seem a lot less like people. Probably the only Blood Mage that we've met that hasn't been all-out evil is Jowan. Under normal circumstances, he keeps it quiet and doesn't use others to power his spells. However, when confronted after destroying his Phylactery, the only weapon he had that could get him free was Blood Magic, and he willingly used it. When you meet up with him again in Redcliffe, and Isolde is begging you not to kill Connor, Jowan immediately steps forward with a spell that would basically kill Isolde to save Connor, and does so with no problem. Jowan's attitude towards people starts off just like anyone else's, but as time goes on, he starts seeing people more as power sources than as people. And he was just 'dabbling'!

3. The Tevinter Imperium was basically built on Blood Magic. Since Andraste fought to free the Alamarri tribes (that would later unite to become Ferelden) from the Tevinter Imperium, there's a lot of bad blood there (no pun intended). Especially since the Tevinters had a slave trade for the sole purpose of having a ready source of blood to power their spells. The Tevinter Imperium is widely seen as evil by the average Ferelden, so anything that is endorsed by the Tevinter Imperium is viewed with mistrust.

4. Demons are a danger to anyone who dreams, but the will of a demon with the power of a Mage makes them a greater threat. This is a fact of life in Dragon Age, not something the Chantry came up with. Because a Mage taps into the Fade so readily ('Mana' is described as a measure of how well a Mage taps into the Fade to power their spells), they can easily attract the attention of Demons. Demons have shown an unusual fascination with the mortal world, and many of the more intelligent ones seek to experience it for themselves. Mage's are the easiest for a Demon to spot, and if successfully possessed, offer greater power than a non-mage could offer, so they are prime targets. In many cases, the only thing keeping a mage from being posessed is their own will. When the only thing standing between you and destruction is the will of a single person, you're going to be more than a little scared. What if the demon is stronger? Or can decieve the mage? Suddenly Magic seems more bad than good.

As Lotion Soronnar has said, the Chantry is not the only source promoting mistrust of Mage's; the very nature of Magic itself promotes even more mistrust.

True, magi have a bad rep because of the old tevinter imperium. but the chantry activly uses this to create mistrust for magi. if you look at anders story or ask jowan why issolde didn't send her son to the circle you will quickly see their is a social stigma attached to being a mage.