992 réponses à ce sujet

[Adhin]

Oh man I love how Zig just blatantly 'ignores' how the writers actually write the dialog thats spoken and then have to write the paraphases too. But hey! All you can see is the text right? so that must be the extent the writers put into the game, the voice actors just made random **** up.

This thread needs a stab face option.

[AkiKishi]

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

actaully the new system is more true to life than the old system...

Maybe so if you are the type of person who speaks without thinking. Otherwise, not.

[Saibh]

Wulfram wrote...

Going to the chantry is hunting him down.  It's a fairly straightforward case of murder on Isabela's part.

They agreed to a duel to the death and he betrayed her by sending waves of men after her instead. It is absolutely not murder, because he wants her dead and they already agreed to duel. She's just forcing him to fulfill his part of the bargain.

[MasterSamson88]

JohnstonMR wrote...

keginkc wrote...

It's hard to tell with so little to go on, but I think it might be an improvement over the Mass Effect system. I like it because it leaves some mystery in terms of what the character is going to say. You know the jist, the tone of it, but you don't quite know for sure what he's (you're) going to say. It makes the cinematic sequences a little more interesting, and to me makes the game more engrossing.

And you can call me an ADD kid if you want, but I'm almost 40, have been playing BioWare games for literally years and have always found blocks of text in video games somewhat tedious. I find that I'm much less likely to lose interest/tune out/get bored and think it's time for a break with a system like this.

What I'm curious about is how noticeable the lack of a persuasion skill will be.

QFT

I like the way you think.

[TGFKAMAdmaX]

BobSmith101 wrote...

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

that does break the roleplaying. There were times in the game where i would make a dialouge choice and apparently my chracter (that i was role playing as) would say the given dialouge in a diifferent manner than i intended. Now i dont know about you, but in the real world i have full control over my mind. so when i say something i know the intent of what im saying. i understand what i am trying to convey to the person i am talking to. Which means that if i am playing as a character in a rpg i should understand the intent of all chocies in order to effectively role play.

That's never happened to you in real life ?

You know what it is you want to say. But you don't know how the other person will react.
The point in DA2 Is we don't know what we are going to say before we say it. Because the keywords don't always match the dialogue.

Someone knowing your intent is very bad RP. I'll show you why (don't take this seriously it's just an example).

Your a tool
Your a tool.

Which one would someone find more offensive?

are you an idiot?? i didnt say that the characters shouldnt misinterpret your dialouge choices on occassion. misunderstandings happen. i said that when i am given a set of dialouge options to choose from I SHOULDNT MISINTERPRET WHAT I AM GOING TO SAY. you know as i shouldnt be confused as to my talking......let me give you an example

Hi....how was that delivered??? you dont know....but it was conveyed with the old system...it should make more sense.......

Hi..... how was that delivered????? wait...waht is that???? it was easier to grasp because in the new system you knew that it was a happy sincere greeting as oppossed to one that could have been delivered sarcastically like so: Hi

[Galad22]

JohnstonMR wrote...

keginkc wrote...

It's hard to tell with so little to go on, but I think it might be an improvement over the Mass Effect system. I like it because it leaves some mystery in terms of what the character is going to say. You know the jist, the tone of it, but you don't quite know for sure what he's (you're) going to say. It makes the cinematic sequences a little more interesting, and to me makes the game more engrossing.

And you can call me an ADD kid if you want, but I'm almost 40, have been playing BioWare games for literally years and have always found blocks of text in video games somewhat tedious. I find that I'm much less likely to lose interest/tune out/get bored and think it's time for a break with a system like this.

What I'm curious about is how noticeable the lack of a persuasion skill will be.

QFT

Why is it improvement that you can't tell what YOUR character is saying exactly. Can't really grasp my head around this.

[Adhin]

Merc wrote : "But without that, the NPC will never misinterpret what you're saying unless the writer specifically writes it that way."

Ahh man, all I can say is 'no ****'. That's the point, like I said being delusional doesn't equal roleplaying. Now im wondering if your specifically saying things just to see if we'll catch on you've been joking this whole time. Gods I hope you've been joking.

[belwin]

Do you like the 3 path 'RPG' system?

[Saibh]

Galad22 wrote...

Why is it improvement that you can't tell what YOUR character is saying exactly. Can't really grasp my head around this.

Because you know the sort of thing being said, and that's fine. If you're surrounded by darkspawn, and you pick the sarcastic line with the paraphrase "Let's go", I can make a pretty accurate guess about what I'm going to say.

[Nomen Mendax]

MasterSamson88 wrote...

Nomen Mendax wrote...

MasterSamson88 wrote...

 Threads like these I usually just click the Bioware tag to see what the developers are saying and I must say I'm pleased with how Gaider has been handling things. I also agree with him on the conversation wheel.

I just don't see how it's been dumbed down at all. 

I agree with you (and DG) that it's not dumbing down.  But I still would much prefer a non-paraphrase version.

While I don't really see the point since your character would un-paraphrase it anyway, I will say that if they didn't paraphrase on the wheel then they would have to shrink the font to fit it all on the screen.

Thus making more people complain about how they've alienated standard definition television sets. 

Which is why I don't think the dialogue wheel is a very good piece of UI.  As I mentioned in an earlier post, a rectangular control does everything the dialogue wheel does and can accomadate either paraphrase or full response text.

[JohnstonMR]

Threeparts wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

in all honesty, its not that different from what origins was like. its just not all listed out.

(nice continue option)
(snarky continue dialogue option)
(mean continue dialogue option)
(ask clarifying question dialogue option #1 i.e investigate)
(ask clarifying question dialogue option #2 i.e investigate)
(ask clarifying question dialogue option #3 i.e investigate)
(stab the dude dialogue option)

its just presented in a wheel this time.

Exactly this. the dialogue options are essentially the same system we had in DA:O, but because it's presented differently (A wheel? Instead of a list? MASS EFFECT!) and incorporates paraphrasing, people seem to be panicking.

If they'd kept the old list and used paraphrasing with a (dialogue type) next to it, I don't think it would cause this much fuss.
1. We should go. (curt)
2. Shall we press on, then? (pleasant)
3. Stop wasting my time with your prattle, Leliana. (aggressive)
4. That's enough. (stab her)

It's exactly the same, except the words are placed in two coloumns in the center of the screen and there are icons instead of text. And yet... so much fuss. Weird.

The gripes are the same with Hawke's story being "plotted out for you". Your Origins character had a set history with parents and siblings, or the tower, or your clan, and there was no way to finish the game but to kill the Archdemon and become the Hero of Ferelden. It was how you got from point A to point X that made the game fun.
We have the same set-up with Hawke - you start as a refugee with parents and siblings and you will become the Champion of Kirkwall - but, for some reason, it has people in a tizzy.

Some folks just need to complain about something.   I'm in full agreement with you. 

[Galad22]

Adhin wrote...

Merc wrote : "But without that, the NPC will never misinterpret what you're saying unless the writer specifically writes it that way."
Ahh man, all I can say is 'no ****'. That's the point, like I said being delusional doesn't equal roleplaying. Now im wondering if your specifically saying things just to see if we'll catch on you've been joking this whole time. Gods I hope you've been joking.

Do you know how easy it is to misinterpret other people in real life?

[Merced652]

Adhin wrote...

Merc wrote : "But without that, the NPC will never misinterpret what you're saying unless the writer specifically writes it that way."
Ahh man, all I can say is 'no ****'. That's the point, like I said being delusional doesn't equal roleplaying. Now im wondering if your specifically saying things just to see if we'll catch on you've been joking this whole time. Gods I hope you've been joking.

Yes, anyone that makes active us of this is a ****ing idiot and insane.

[falconlord5]

Galad22 wrote...

JohnstonMR wrote...

keginkc wrote...

It's hard to tell with so little to go on, but I think it might be an improvement over the Mass Effect system. I like it because it leaves some mystery in terms of what the character is going to say. You know the jist, the tone of it, but you don't quite know for sure what he's (you're) going to say. It makes the cinematic sequences a little more interesting, and to me makes the game more engrossing.

And you can call me an ADD kid if you want, but I'm almost 40, have been playing BioWare games for literally years and have always found blocks of text in video games somewhat tedious. I find that I'm much less likely to lose interest/tune out/get bored and think it's time for a break with a system like this.

What I'm curious about is how noticeable the lack of a persuasion skill will be.

QFT

Why is it improvement that you can't tell what YOUR character is saying exactly. Can't really grasp my head around this.

Perhaps because we don't need exact dialogue spelled out for us?  Perhaps 'cause this is much easier to read on standard definition?

[Galad22]

Saibh wrote...

Galad22 wrote...

Why is it improvement that you can't tell what YOUR character is saying exactly. Can't really grasp my head around this.

Because you know the sort of thing being said, and that's fine. If you're surrounded by darkspawn, and you pick the sarcastic line with the paraphrase "Let's go", I can make a pretty accurate guess about what I'm going to say.

But it is not fine to me. I want to know exactly what I am saying, not have some sort of surprise every now and then.

[Adhin]

@Galad: The intent icons is the improvement. The Quips and voice over for the PC is just a preference. That's what it comes down to. having fully written out stuff with no way to be 100% sure what your 'intent' was can lead to a lot of 'ok did they just not like that, or did I not say what I meant to'. And the game never gives you an option to try and re-explain your self like you can IRL.

So with the intent icons, if you pick something and they have the same horrible reaction you at least now know, 100% sure, its just cause they didn't agree with you. And you don't have to make up in your head some delusional 'oh they just didn't get it' when the writers obviously had a different intent in mind for said line.

As for why I personally like ME voiced wheel style over listed out (voiced or otherwise) I've explained before. It's more inline with real life conversations, if you pick your options quickly anyways and don't sit there having a hard time deciding.

[TGFKAMAdmaX]

Merced652 wrote...

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

Threeparts wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

Threeparts wrote...

I'd say this is actually a good example of how much it hasn't changed. To me, I would consider option 1 to be agressive, 2 to be snarky, 3 to be polite, and 4 to be Investigate. And the fact that we perceive the tones of each line so differently means that there is already a case for having intent icons. 

But then you're metagaming based on intent instead of roleplaying your charc... nvm. No one RPs.

I do RP, actually. Quite a lot, both in DA and other games.
But how do you see it as metagaming? If I have a City Elf character whose personality dictates that she would make an aggressive response to a human, but I choose a line that turns out to be more humourous than I'd like, is it really metagaming to reload and choose a different option the next time around? I'd consider it being more true to the character, since I had no voice to indicate if she was saying something I thought would be aggressive in a tone that was actually just sarcastic.
With the intent icons I don't need to go through that process of "oh, crap, I wasn't trying to be funny, I was trying to threaten you!", I can already tell that the tone my character will take is the one I intend, regardless of how other characters respond to her.

Yes it is metagaming. You RP like as i described in another thread. With one overreaching event or attitude in mind. Your sole point of reference is "yo i was a slave" so therefore everything is done by your character because you were a slave and its apparently had some huge effect on everything.

Far be it for me to tell you how to RP, but this system forces you in to picking lines not by content(because LOLWHEEL) but by intent because you'll never know what you're actually saying. Thats pretty criminal to me because maybe my character might make an aggressive comment but wouldn't say it so horribly. At least when the intent is unknown and the NPC takes what you thought was an aggressive comment as a joke your character would have to react to that misunderstanding.

That is overlooking the problems with the old system. because you never knew the intent of the old lines some gamer would make chocies they never intended to which would effectively break the roleplaying.

LOL. That doesn't break the roleplaying, THAT MAKES IT. This is why i'm utterly convinced no one RPs because if so then there is absolutely no way you can say that.

that does break the roleplaying. There were times in the game where i would make a dialouge choice and apparently my chracter (that i was role playing as) would say the given dialouge in a diifferent manner than i intended. Now i dont know about you, but in the real world i have full control over my mind. so when i say something i know the intent of what im saying. i understand what i am trying to convey to the person i am talking to. Which means that if i am playing as a character in a rpg i should understand the intent of all chocies in order to effectively role play.

So no one has every missunderstood something you were saying to them or misintepreted your intentions? Wondering what planet you live on.

i never said that i have never been misinterpreted by someone. i said i never misinterpreted MYSELF. i should not be confused by the intent of the protaginist i am trying to role play. i should be allowed to try and convey my intent as best as possible. which the new system is much better at.

But without that, the NPC will never misinterpret what you're saying unless the writer specifically writes it that way.

and it is always a predetermined script. writers wrote out everything in the first game as well. when you said something the writers still had an idea of what they wanted you to say in the old system. but you didnt necesarrily have an idea of what the dialouge meant.  in the new system they outline the intent so there will be no miscommunications between you and hawke. so now you can more effectively fil his shoes. there still can be miscommunications between you and other characters in the DA universe. just there is significantly less chance of misinterpreting what hawke will say. havent you ever said a compliment to someone and they take it the wrong way????

[Nomen Mendax]

Saibh wrote...

Galad22 wrote...

Why is it improvement that you can't tell what YOUR character is saying exactly. Can't really grasp my head around this.

Because you know the sort of thing being said, and that's fine. If you're surrounded by darkspawn, and you pick the sarcastic line with the paraphrase "Let's go", I can make a pretty accurate guess about what I'm going to say.

That's fine for you.  Other people are bothered by the disconnect between what they imagine their charater will say when they pick a paraphrase and what they actually do say.

I'd prefer that players be able to choose between full text and paraphrase.  That isn't going to happen with the dialogue wheel because it's a horribly constraining UI control.

Modifié par Nomen Mendax, 24 février 2011 - 06:21 .

[Inzhuna]

David Gaider wrote...


The lack of non-combat skills does not mean you can't talk your way out of fights.

You get bonus dialogue options based on your personality choices-- so someone who's diplomatic most often will occasionally have such options appear. And that's when you aren't already getting choices that can lead to a peaceful resolution regardless of your personality.

But you're free to jump to conclusions, if you wish.

David, will these bonus options be clearly marked as such? Do they have their own unique icon? Thanks.

[JamesX]

When I saw the Templer heavily wounded, I was expecting Hawke to have the "Knife" option. E.g. the time you see the wounded scout in the Wild....

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

and it is always a predetermined script. writers wrote out everything in the first game as well. when you said something the writers still had an idea of what they wanted you to say in the old system. but you didnt necesarrily have an idea of what the dialouge meant.  in the new system they outline the intent so there will be no miscommunications between you and hawke. so now you can more effectively fil his shoes. there still can be miscommunications between you and other characters in the DA universe. just there is significantly less chance of misinterpreting what hawke will say. havent you ever said a compliment to someone and they take it the wrong way????

In DAO there are situations where 2 lines have maybe 4 word difference, but the nuiances are huge.  A Wheel simply does not condone such details - and details is what makes a good game great.

Modifié par JamesX, 24 février 2011 - 06:21 .

[Adhin]

Merced: No no, that doesn't make you insane. I'm just saying blatantly deciding the writers are wrong and your write because you will it to be so doesn't actually make it right. Nor does that make it roleplaying or better roleplaying. It just means you so bullheaded your incapable of working with in someone else work.

It's a game, no matter what you do every conversation will have pre-defined responses to everything. Pretending it DOESN'T isn't roleplaying, its just that. Pretending. Making up your own stuff. So I'll agree its imagination... that's all it is though. Try doing that with in the confines of the game its self though, that also requires some imagination. One you seem to clearly hate using.

[Merced652]

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

and it is always a predetermined script. writers wrote out everything in the first game as well. when you said something the writers still had an idea of what they wanted you to say in the old system. but you didnt necesarrily have an idea of what the dialouge meant.  in the new system they outline the intent so there will be no miscommunications between you and hawke. so now you can more effectively fil his shoes. there still can be miscommunications between you and other characters in the DA universe. just there is significantly less chance of misinterpreting what hawke will say. havent you ever said a compliment to someone and they take it the wrong way????

Yes i have, and it even happen in DA:O. Tell you what, if it happens in DA2 without the writers specifically writing it that way then i'll forget every negative thing i've ever said about the wheel and VO'd protag. But i'm pretty sure i have nothing to worry about so long as i can metagame my trusty pictograph.

[EDIT: Quote trees trimmed]

Modifié par JohnEpler, 24 février 2011 - 06:23 .

[AkiKishi]

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...
are you an idiot?? i didnt say that the characters shouldnt misinterpret your dialouge choices on occassion. misunderstandings happen. i said that when i am given a set of dialouge options to choose from I SHOULDNT MISINTERPRET WHAT I AM GOING TO SAY. you know as i shouldnt be confused as to my talking......let me give you an example

Hi....how was that delivered??? you dont know....but it was conveyed with the old system...it should make more sense.......

Hi..... how was that delivered????? wait...waht is that???? it was easier to grasp because in the new system you knew that it was a happy sincere greeting as oppossed to one that could have been delivered sarcastically like so: Hi

I am objectively not an idiot.

You don't see the problem ? If the NPC knows your intent, then they can't misunderstand which means you need to think about what you say even less. Big shiny friends Icon wonder what that will do... dull red  Rival icon..See zero thought required and since you don't have a full dialogue to examine, clearly added to make up for the obvious weakness of the wheel system.

[Saibh]

Nomen Mendax wrote...

That's fine for you.  Other people are bothered by the disconnect between what they imagine their charater will say when they pick a paraphrase and they actually do say.

I'd prefer that players be able to choose between full text and paraphrase.  That isn't going to happen with the dialogue wheel because its a horribly constraining UI control.

Oh well. That's not what they're doing. The game is finished, and you haven't even played it. It's up there with complaining about a voiced protagonist. This is what they're doing. This is the game they are making. You don't like the game they are making. That's fine for you. But complaining that you don't like it is needless, because many more are probably going to be fine with it, and it comes down to your personal preference, not it being any worse or better.

[John Epler]

Cut it out with the giant quote trees, please.