992 réponses à ce sujet

[Mykel54]

Galad22 wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Galad22 wrote...

Why is it improvement that you can't tell what YOUR character is saying exactly. Can't really grasp my head around this.

Because you know the sort of thing being said, and that's fine. If you're surrounded by darkspawn, and you pick the sarcastic line with the paraphrase "Let's go", I can make a pretty accurate guess about what I'm going to say.

But it is not fine to me. I want to know exactly what I am saying, not have some sort of surprise every now and then.

I agree completely, i don´t understand how anyone can think that paraphrases are better than the actual text. So now in the DA2 demo you are saying that "Do it" is a lot clearer than "It´s all your sister/brother". And that the later phrase would be too long for people to read. I will never understand why it is so hard to just put the dialogue writed down and let the player choose, and not guess, what is hawke going to say. To me it looks like the priorities of the people creating the dialogue system are a bit odd, it seems to take more importance on the surprise as in "oh look i picked this option and hawke said something very smart/funny i didn´t expect!" than the actual decision-making of roleplay games.

[Burdokva]

David, I read you responses, maybe you're right - though admittedly the demo didn't present some detailed and complex dialogue like those available at the party camp in Origins; maybe such will come later on.

However, I still stand by my point that paraphrasing is actually more confusing than fully written sentences.

Let me give you an example - I pick the line "I have no opinion on the matter". The character who I'm talking with may get offended by it, even though it's a clearly neutral rensonse... but that's what was great about it! Characters acted like real people, they responded to you in their own terms, not necessarily how you meant it to be. And the important thing is I know what exactly I wanted to say, whether or not it was understood by the other side is a different matter entirely.

Not that it couldn't happen with paraphrasing too, but another example from the demo - Carver dies, mother grieves, I pick up the line "He won't be alone". It's implied that it should comfort her, knowing that wherever her boy is, his spirit isn't lost (bla-bla-bla, not to get sentimental). Yet actual response is "Well, at least father won't be alone now".

Sure, it still fits, but I most certainly would not have picked up that line if I knew it; it made me feel like a wise-mouthed idiot, as a matter of fact. And isn't the point of roleplaying to project ourselves (the players) into our characters and say what we would in that situation?

To summarize, the wheel itself is fine, paraphrasing isn't. I wouldn't have minded wheel over a list if I could see the actual responses - then it would have been like Origins. And I stand by my opinion that it was done so simply because a large part of the players, esp. younger ones, are too lazy to read.

Modifié par Burdokva, 24 février 2011 - 06:24 .

[Wulfram]

Saibh wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Going to the chantry is hunting him down.  It's a fairly straightforward case of murder on Isabela's part.

They agreed to a duel to the death and he betrayed her by sending waves of men after her instead. It is absolutely not murder, because he wants her dead and they already agreed to duel. She's just forcing him to fulfill his part of the bargain.

Except she doesn't fight him in a duel.  She has Hawke and friends help her kill him.

To me, it seems like Hawke is hired as a bodyguard and ends up acting as a hitman.

[TGFKAMAdmaX]

BobSmith101 wrote...

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

actaully the new system is more true to life than the old system...

Maybe so if you are the type of person who speaks without thinking. Otherwise, not.

no it is more true to life. anyone who has gone into a convo with someone understands this. have you ever gone into a convo with someone with the intention of cheering them up but not exactly knowing what to say???? (this is directed at all who read it no just bob.) i bet most people have. which is what the new system captures. it lets the player know what hawke is trying to come across as. which is an improvementto the old system. the old system told you what you were going to say but not what intent you said it with. like how one person can say hi sincerely and another can say hi in a snarky unsincere way. both said the same thing with two different intents. no one comes into a convo knowing what they will say without intent. people usually enter with the mindset of " im going to give them a piece of my mind!!!" and the new system can capture that via the icons....

[JrayM16]

BobSmith101 wrote...

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...
are you an idiot?? i didnt say that the characters shouldnt misinterpret your dialouge choices on occassion. misunderstandings happen. i said that when i am given a set of dialouge options to choose from I SHOULDNT MISINTERPRET WHAT I AM GOING TO SAY. you know as i shouldnt be confused as to my talking......let me give you an example

Hi....how was that delivered??? you dont know....but it was conveyed with the old system...it should make more sense.......

Hi..... how was that delivered????? wait...waht is that???? it was easier to grasp because in the new system you knew that it was a happy sincere greeting as oppossed to one that could have been delivered sarcastically like so: Hi

I am objectively not an idiot.

You don't see the problem ? If the NPC knows your intent, then they can't misunderstand which means you need to think about what you say even less. Big shiny friends Icon wonder what that will do... dull red  Rival icon..See zero thought required and since you don't have a full dialogue to examine, clearly added to make up for the obvious weakness of the wheel system.

THe thought level is up to you.  If you want to not think, then that is an option.  However, if you want to think, then you can still do that. 

The fact that the wheel allows people to go through mindlessly if they wish does not inhibit your ability to think about choices.

[Adhin]

@Inzhuna: I think the options show up on the left side of the dialog wheel, based off your current dominant personality. There's no invisible bar you have to fill up, it just goes off most dominant. Plus like he was saying, there's other ways to get out of it then that.

I think one example they gave was these optional points aren't so much the deciding factor, as they just give a more impressive version. For instance in certain points you can be intimidating via the aggressive options. but if your prominent personality is aggressive already, an intimidation extra option shows up on the left and its more erm, aggressive. More like rewarding the player with extra content.

It's more of a replay/flavor thing, I think anyways. Wont know 100% for sure till games out, its just how I understand it from Dev responses.

[TGFKAMAdmaX]

JohnEpler wrote...

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

and it is always a predetermined script. writers wrote out everything in the first game as well. when you said something the writers still had an idea of what they wanted you to say in the old system. but you didnt necesarrily have an idea of what the dialouge meant.  in the new system they outline the intent so there will be no miscommunications between you and hawke. so now you can more effectively fil his shoes. there still can be miscommunications between you and other characters in the DA universe. just there is significantly less chance of misinterpreting what hawke will say. havent you ever said a compliment to someone and they take it the wrong way????

Yes i have, and it even happen in DA:O. Tell you what, if it happens in DA2 without the writers specifically writing it that way then i'll forget every negative thing i've ever said about the wheel and VO'd protag. But i'm pretty sure i have nothing to worry about so long as i can metagame my trusty pictograph.

[EDIT: Quote trees trimmed]

well than we have our stances and there is nothing more to discuss unless we want to spam...have a nice day...

[Threeparts]

Mr Gaider (or anyone else in the know), if you're still reading this, can you please answer a quick question? I know the toolset won't be ready for a while, but when/if it is, will it be physically possible for modders to transcribe the dialogue choices and replace the paraphrased text in the game? If so, I'm betting we'll see a new top download on mod sites before the year is out.

Modifié par Threeparts, 24 février 2011 - 06:31 .

[Anzer]

I love the new dialogue system.

In fact, I love it so much that my feelings negate everyone else's feelings on this system. Yes, my feelings are so strong that they make all of your feelings on this matter inadequate. I'm sorry if this fact offends you, but you're welcome to have a cookie!

(:

[ziloe]

 Have you actually played the demo?

I played through it several times utilizing the various dialogue options. It doesn't push you into a corner. It just depends on the situation you're currently dealing with. For instance, when you first meet Aveline's husband, picking the last option doesn't mean you're picking an evil path, it's just you protecting your sister. 

[Nomen Mendax]

BobSmith101 wrote...

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...
are you an idiot?? i didnt say that the characters shouldnt misinterpret your dialouge choices on occassion. misunderstandings happen. i said that when i am given a set of dialouge options to choose from I SHOULDNT MISINTERPRET WHAT I AM GOING TO SAY. you know as i shouldnt be confused as to my talking......let me give you an example

Hi....how was that delivered??? you dont know....but it was conveyed with the old system...it should make more sense.......

Hi..... how was that delivered????? wait...waht is that???? it was easier to grasp because in the new system you knew that it was a happy sincere greeting as oppossed to one that could have been delivered sarcastically like so: Hi

I am objectively not an idiot.

You don't see the problem ? If the NPC knows your intent, then they can't misunderstand which means you need to think about what you say even less. Big shiny friends Icon wonder what that will do... dull red  Rival icon..See zero thought required and since you don't have a full dialogue to examine, clearly added to make up for the obvious weakness of the wheel system.

I don't agree with this.  If the writers want the NPC to misunderstand your response then they can still misunderstand it reardless of the intent icon.  I also don't see the NPC's as misunderstanding your responses in DAO.  If you selected a response on the assumption that it was said in one tone but it was actually intended (by the writers) to be another tone then it is you who are misunderstanding the writers intent, not the NPC misunderstanding you.  Although, of course, you are free to imagine that it is the NPC misunderstanding you but that is a (presumably) unintended consequence on the part of the writers.

I really don't like the paraphrase system but I don't see anything wrong with trying to clarify the intent of responses.

[TGFKAMAdmaX]

BobSmith101 wrote...

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...
are you an idiot?? i didnt say that the characters shouldnt misinterpret your dialouge choices on occassion. misunderstandings happen. i said that when i am given a set of dialouge options to choose from I SHOULDNT MISINTERPRET WHAT I AM GOING TO SAY. you know as i shouldnt be confused as to my talking......let me give you an example

Hi....how was that delivered??? you dont know....but it was conveyed with the old system...it should make more sense.......

Hi..... how was that delivered????? wait...waht is that???? it was easier to grasp because in the new system you knew that it was a happy sincere greeting as oppossed to one that could have been delivered sarcastically like so: Hi

I am objectively not an idiot.

You don't see the problem ? If the NPC knows your intent, then they can't misunderstand which means you need to think about what you say even less. Big shiny friends Icon wonder what that will do... dull red  Rival icon..See zero thought required and since you don't have a full dialogue to examine, clearly added to make up for the obvious weakness of the wheel system.

so you are telling me that no one has ever misunderstood something nice that you have said??? what i am saying is that the player should have no miscommunication with hawke. i should know what intent hawke is saying lines with... i am not saying that chracters shouldnt misinterpret what hawke is saying. i am saying that i shouldnt misinterpret what hawke is saying.

[Merced652]

Zalekanzer wrote...

I love the new dialogue system.
In fact, I love it so much that my feelings negate everyone else's feelings on this system. Yes, my feelings are so strong that they make all of your feelings on this matter inadequate. I'm sorry if this fact offends you, but you're welcome to have a cookie!
(:

Expecto Patronummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[crotti]

wowpwnslol wrote...

It's worse. Made for ADD kids too lazy to read, so they even added pictures. I hate ME style dialogue "wheel" it screams console oversimplification.

I would agree with you, but why are there so many people talking about ADD? <_< I have ADD, but I loved the many choices we had - and I read everything (I think it doesn't count that I ordered the game in English, even though I'm German, does it? XD)
Oh well... I know ADHD kids that are really like that... It's annoying.

I liked the way it was done in the first game, but I also think that I will get used to the dialogue wheel. (As if I have a choice xD It would be a pretty stupid reason to cancel my pre-order because I don't like that) 

[Nomen Mendax]

Zalekanzer wrote...

I love the new dialogue system.
In fact, I love it so much that my feelings negate everyone else's feelings on this system. Yes, my feelings are so strong that they make all of your feelings on this matter inadequate. I'm sorry if this fact offends you, but you're welcome to have a cookie!
(:

So I guess you are a firm believer in utilitarianism.

[TGFKAMAdmaX]

Nomen Mendax wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...
are you an idiot?? i didnt say that the characters shouldnt misinterpret your dialouge choices on occassion. misunderstandings happen. i said that when i am given a set of dialouge options to choose from I SHOULDNT MISINTERPRET WHAT I AM GOING TO SAY. you know as i shouldnt be confused as to my talking......let me give you an example

Hi....how was that delivered??? you dont know....but it was conveyed with the old system...it should make more sense.......

Hi..... how was that delivered????? wait...waht is that???? it was easier to grasp because in the new system you knew that it was a happy sincere greeting as oppossed to one that could have been delivered sarcastically like so: Hi

I am objectively not an idiot.

You don't see the problem ? If the NPC knows your intent, then they can't misunderstand which means you need to think about what you say even less. Big shiny friends Icon wonder what that will do... dull red  Rival icon..See zero thought required and since you don't have a full dialogue to examine, clearly added to make up for the obvious weakness of the wheel system.

I don't agree with this.  If the writers want the NPC to misunderstand your response then they can still misunderstand it reardless of the intent icon.  I also don't see the NPC's as misunderstanding your responses in DAO.  If you selected a response on the assumption that it was said in one tone but it was actually intended (by the writers) to be another tone then it is you who are misunderstanding the writers intent, not the NPC misunderstanding you.  Although, of course, you are free to imagine that it is the NPC misunderstanding you but that is a (presumably) unintended consequence on the part of the writers.

I really don't like the paraphrase system but I don't see anything wrong with trying to clarify the intent of responses.

and as they have gone the other route in the sequel one could make the argument that the writers understood it was a failure on their part to convey the intent to the player via the old system as they have chosen a new system which effectively does convey the intent to the player. otherwise if it was really a problem with just a minority and it was our faults for not understanding then they would have kept the old system.

[Atmosfear3]

I for one like the new dialogue system. The hell with reading tiny little sentences on my screen. My eyes were so tired after every DA:O playthrough.

[Alexander1136]

i hate it. i prefered the origins style and silent character.

[David Gaider]

Threeparts wrote...
Mr Gaider (or anyone else in the know), if you're still reading this, can you please answer a quick question? I know the toolset won't be ready for a while, but when/if it is, will it be physically possible for modders to transcribe the dialogue choices and replace the paraphrased text in the game? If so, I'm betting we'll see a new top download on mod sites before the year is out.

The toolset warns you if you go over the length limit, but I don't believe it stops you. What effect that would have, however, I don't know. There is probably a practical limitation of what can actually fit onto the GUI, though it might still fit (and just look really bad). Assuming that any of that is possible, good luck with it.

[AkiKishi]

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

so you are telling me that no one has ever misunderstood something nice that you have said??? what i am saying is that the player should have no miscommunication with hawke. i should know what intent hawke is saying lines with... i am not saying that chracters shouldnt misinterpret what hawke is saying. i am saying that i shouldnt misinterpret what hawke is saying.

That's not really the point I was making. I was saying that by adding icons you remove even the need to read the keywords. And that reading the keywords is hit and miss anyway because of the dialogue missmatch.

In DA 3 they could just make a wheel of Icons (Im half joking but you never know). Then you would simply choose the intent and the rest would be up to the character. Even easier

[JamieCOTC]

ziloe wrote...

 Have you actually played the demo?

I played through it several times utilizing the various dialogue options. It doesn't push you into a corner. It just depends on the situation you're currently dealing with. For instance, when you first meet Aveline's husband, picking the last option doesn't mean you're picking an evil path, it's just you protecting your sister. 

Great example and to be honest I barely noticed the icons, but even so I like that they are there.  I don't know what the hell is going to come out of my Shepard's mouth sometimes and that can be very frustrating.

[Nomen Mendax]

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

and as they have gone the other route in the sequel one could make the argument that the writers understood it was a failure on their part to convey the intent to the player via the old system as they have chosen a new system which effectively does convey the intent to the player. otherwise if it was really a problem with just a minority and it was our faults for not understanding then they would have kept the old system.

In which case keep the intent icons (or use *gasp* words) and allow the player to see the full text.  If they did this then I'd be a lot happier.

[Nomen Mendax]

David Gaider wrote...

Threeparts wrote...
Mr Gaider (or anyone else in the know), if you're still reading this, can you please answer a quick question? I know the toolset won't be ready for a while, but when/if it is, will it be physically possible for modders to transcribe the dialogue choices and replace the paraphrased text in the game? If so, I'm betting we'll see a new top download on mod sites before the year is out.

The toolset warns you if you go over the length limit, but I don't believe it stops you. What effect that would have, however, I don't know. There is probably a practical limitation of what can actually fit onto the GUI, though it might still fit (and just look really bad). Assuming that any of that is possible, good luck with it.

Of course if you hadn't chosen such a constrained UI widget this wouldn't be a problem.  OK, shutting up about this now ...

[TGFKAMAdmaX]

BobSmith101 wrote...

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

so you are telling me that no one has ever misunderstood something nice that you have said??? what i am saying is that the player should have no miscommunication with hawke. i should know what intent hawke is saying lines with... i am not saying that chracters shouldnt misinterpret what hawke is saying. i am saying that i shouldnt misinterpret what hawke is saying.

That's not really the point I was making. I was saying that by adding icons you remove even the need to read the keywords. And that reading the keywords is hit and miss anyway because of the dialogue missmatch.

In DA 3 they could just make a wheel of Icons (Im half joking but you never know). Then you would simply choose the intent and the rest would be up to the character. Even easier

i am not saying that the new system is without its flaws. i am saying it better conveys intent which is a fundemental part to rping.  and it is there to reach a broader audience. but just because it is there doesnt mean that you specifically need to use it. maybe they should just not paraphrase but keep the intent icons....i think that would be a good compromise

[Kerethos]

Clonedzero wrote...

in all honesty, its not that different from what origins was like. its just not all listed out.

(nice continue option)
(snarky continue dialogue option)
(mean continue dialogue option)
(ask clarifying question dialogue option #1 i.e investigate)
(ask clarifying question dialogue option #2 i.e investigate)
(ask clarifying question dialogue option #3 i.e investigate)
(stab the dude dialogue option)

its just presented in a wheel this time.

This, with the addition that many dialogues are just 3 versions of (nice continue options) and 1 (snarky continue dialogue option). To me, that's better, since now I know what the clarifying questions are, and I can tell insults from jokes. I've accidently insulted so many people in Origins