992 réponses à ce sujet

[Dsentinel]

I love the new options. My choices still effect the outcome, they still effect my relationships and how other characters view me, and I can still make sarcastic jokes.



The only difference is there is no illusion of having more options, that end up with the same exact outcome.



DA:O : 2 good guy options, same exact outcome. 2 joking options, same exact outcome. 2 mean guy option, same exact outcome.



DA 2: 1 good guy option, 1 sarcastic, 1 bad guy. Without the false illusions of a slightly different option. I like this better.

[rob_k]

Merced652 wrote...

I kind of figured writers would appreciate people using their work in any way they found enjoyable so long as it wasn't abusive. Kind of like the whole fanfic sensation. Saibh just makes them sound like complete douchebags.

You'd be surprised. I imagine it feels odd someone taking 'your' characters and having them do something completely unnatural. Or even something that is natural, but it's not something you intended.

Ever read the Harry Potter fanfic by any chance? *shudders*

And I'm not saying it's something that would get writers worked up. But err... I think I'd rather avoid fanfic etc. because people are essentially messing around with a writer's baby or babies.

Modifié par rob_k, 24 février 2011 - 08:32 .

[Marionetten]

Dsentinel wrote...

I love the new options. My choices still effect the outcome, they still effect my relationships and how other characters view me, and I can still make sarcastic jokes.

Beyond reputation points I didn't see anything actually effect the outcome. Regardless of what you said or did, you had to pick up Aveline and Wesley. Regardless of what you said or did, you still had to help Flemeth. Regardless of what you said or did, Isabela still killed Hayder. Perhaps things get better later on but the illusion of choice remains strong in the demo.

[Nomen Mendax]

 So let's make everyone happy.  For DA3

• Get rid of the dialogue wheel (because it doesn't easily allow the display of multiple sentences of a reasonable length) and use a standard old-fashioned dialogue tree
• Allow the user the option of toggling intent icon's on and off
• Allow the user the option of showing paraphrase or full response text

OK so that should say "everyone happy except Bioware" (because of all of the extra work putting in the options).

[StormbringerGT]

elearon1 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...
If that is the truth, then I'll just say your standards of what roleplaying means are very broad.

He probably just isn't hinging his definition on the one or two mechanics that you're tying your tugboat to.  Believe me, having seen the hobby transform as it has over the last few decades I can tell you that I have heard so many variations on the "the sky is falling" cry uproar that it just doesn't phase me anymore.  (both in the crpg and the PnP world ... in fact, probably more often in the PnP world)  

Games change, they evolve ... sometimes they move away and then come back, sometimes smaller companies come into assendance who do things the old fashioned way and gain support ... sometimes people forget the old ways and move on.  The hobby doesn't vanish simply because it becomes different ... it just becomes different.

EXACTLY!

And what seem people seem to fail to understand is the reasons behind these changes. PnP, Video games, they are all companies. As a company it needs money to grow. When I company tries to appeal to that broader audience people on far left side and far right side are going to feel left out. Thats just how it is.

Like the above poster I've seen a lot of changes as well, and some I were not happy with yet I live. They were business decesions or even sometimes, creative decisions. A company can't cater to the 15,000 people anymore and still maintain its health and growth. It has to try and cater to the 15,000,000 million other potential customers.

As a matter of fact falling into a minority is a world issue, that goes far beyond the borders of video games. It goes as far as president choice, to laws to everything. On a very basic level it always makes more sense to make the majority of people happy as oppose to the minority, it sucks for the minority but its a lesson has happened and will continue to happen.

[Icinix]

I thought it was OK the first item around. The more I played through the demo though..the less I like it.



It feels very Alpha Protocol, where the only way it seems to make sense is when you pick a style of conversation and stick with it the whole game (might be different, but in the demo if you flick between, your Hawke has a weird mood swing thing going on).



I'm liking it less and less..but meh...we'll see in the full game when there is a lot more dialogue and choices to be made....



Reserving final judgement.

[Marionetten]

Nomen Mendax wrote...

 So let's make everyone happy.  For DA3

• Get rid of the dialogue wheel (because it doesn't easily allow the display of multiple sentences of a reasonable length) and use a standard old-fashioned dialogue tree
• Allow the user the option of toggling intent icon's on and off
• Allow the user the option of showing paraphrase or full response text

OK so that should say "everyone happy except Bioware" (because of all of the extra work putting in the options).

Sounds like a good start. As an addendum, I'd like them to get rid of personality tracking. It's far too similar to alignment.

[StormbringerGT]

rob_k wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

I kind of figured writers would appreciate people using their work in any way they found enjoyable so long as it wasn't abusive. Kind of like the whole fanfic sensation. Saibh just makes them sound like complete douchebags.

You'd be surprised. I imagine it feels odd someone taking 'your' characters and having them do something completely unnatural. Or even something that is natural, but it's not something you intended.

Ever read the Harry Potter fanfic by any chance? *shudders*

And I'm not saying it's something that would get writers worked up. But err... I think I'd rather avoid fanfic etc. because people are essentially messing around with a writer's baby or babies.

Most fanfics make me shudder, but not all. But thats alright. There are a ton of people who enjoy them, sometimes even more so than the source material. Who am I to condem their harmless fun?

[DraCZeQQ]

Nomen Mendax wrote...

 So let's make everyone happy.  For DA3

• Get rid of the dialogue wheel (because it doesn't easily allow the display of multiple sentences of a reasonable length) and use a standard old-fashioned dialogue tree
• Allow the user the option of toggling intent icon's on and off
• Allow the user the option of showing paraphrase or full response text

OK so that should say "everyone happy except Bioware" (because of all of the extra work putting in the options).

/agree

[rob_k]

One other thing people tend to forget as well is that the more money companies like BioWare make, they can theoretically make better games. (Again, in theory)

[TGFKAMAdmaX]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

its not. just the name itself shows that. its a game first and formost. the terms "role playing" are modifiers.

There's a name for that fallacy.  I can't seem to think of it right now.

so you dont have a response...other than you cant think of one??? and obviously you are looking for a simulator...not a game...go play sims.....

[Galad22]

Marionetten wrote...

Nomen Mendax wrote...

 So let's make everyone happy.  For DA3

• Get rid of the dialogue wheel (because it doesn't easily allow the display of multiple sentences of a reasonable length) and use a standard old-fashioned dialogue tree
• Allow the user the option of toggling intent icon's on and off
• Allow the user the option of showing paraphrase or full response text

OK so that should say "everyone happy except Bioware" (because of all of the extra work putting in the options).

Sounds like a good start. As an addendum, I'd like them to get rid of personality tracking. It's far too similar to alignment.

Sounds good!

Modifié par Galad22, 24 février 2011 - 08:35 .

[StormbringerGT]

DraCZeQQ wrote...

Nomen Mendax wrote...

 So let's make everyone happy.  For DA3

• Get rid of the dialogue wheel (because it doesn't easily allow the display of multiple sentences of a reasonable length) and use a standard old-fashioned dialogue tree
• Allow the user the option of toggling intent icon's on and off
• Allow the user the option of showing paraphrase or full response text

OK so that should say "everyone happy except Bioware" (because of all of the extra work putting in the options).

/agree

And everyone happy except for me.
And as far as everyone being "happy" the sales of the game will be what they use as a judge for happiness.

[rob_k]

StormbringerGT wrote...

rob_k wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

I kind of figured writers would appreciate people using their work in any way they found enjoyable so long as it wasn't abusive. Kind of like the whole fanfic sensation. Saibh just makes them sound like complete douchebags.

You'd be surprised. I imagine it feels odd someone taking 'your' characters and having them do something completely unnatural. Or even something that is natural, but it's not something you intended.

Ever read the Harry Potter fanfic by any chance? *shudders*

And I'm not saying it's something that would get writers worked up. But err... I think I'd rather avoid fanfic etc. because people are essentially messing around with a writer's baby or babies.

Most fanfics make me shudder, but not all. But thats alright. There are a ton of people who enjoy them, sometimes even more so than the source material. Who am I to condem their harmless fun?

No-one should really. But I'm just looking at it from the perspective of a writer, which I am. Albeit an unpublished one.

[David Gaider]

Nomen Mendax wrote...
So let's make everyone happy.  For DA3

• Get rid of the dialogue wheel (because it doesn't easily allow the display of multiple sentences of a reasonable length) and use a standard old-fashioned dialogue tree
• Allow the user the option of toggling intent icon's on and off
• Allow the user the option of showing paraphrase or full response text

OK so that should say "everyone happy except Bioware" (because of all of the extra work putting in the options).

Yeah... sorry, but a toggle is not the answer to every design issue. Sometimes doing both means inheriting the weaknesses of both.

[AlanC9]

elearon1 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...
If that is the truth, then I'll just say your standards of what roleplaying means are very broad.

He probably just isn't hinging his definition on the one or two mechanics that you're tying your tugboat to.  Believe me, having seen the hobby transform as it has over the last few decades I can tell you that I have heard so many variations on the "the sky is falling" cry uproar that it just doesn't phase me anymore.  (both in the crpg and the PnP world ... in fact, probably more often in the PnP world)  

Games change, they evolve ... sometimes they move away and then come back, sometimes smaller companies come into assendance who do things the old fashioned way and gain support ... sometimes people forget the old ways and move on.  The hobby doesn't vanish simply because it becomes different ... it just becomes different.

Over on the ME2 board someone -- IIRC Walker White, who sometimes posts here -- pointed out that while there's a lot of chatter about how Bio's now catering to all the new players who don't really like RPGs, the real long-term RPG fans are fairly likely to approve of Bio is experimenting with different mechanics. Probably because we've seen mechanics come and go over the decades. It's the gamers a bit younger than us who are more committed to mechanics circa 2000 as The Way RPGs Ought To Be.

[TGFKAMAdmaX]

Nomen Mendax wrote...

 So let's make everyone happy.  For DA3

• Get rid of the dialogue wheel (because it doesn't easily allow the display of multiple sentences of a reasonable length) and use a standard old-fashioned dialogue tree
• Allow the user the option of toggling intent icon's on and off
• Allow the user the option of showing paraphrase or full response text

OK so that should say "everyone happy except Bioware" (because of all of the extra work putting in the options).

ur also going to have to have alot of different voice actors and a toggle for voices for those who dont want any....o and different voice actors for all characters. and have alot of decisions from the first significantly impact the 2nd. did i miss any more complaints from the outspoken of the bioware community???

[marshalleck]

Marionetten wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

Wrong. In Bioware games you almost always play a pretty clearly pre-defined character. They don't do sandboxes. That's more Bethesda style.

Plenty of BioWare games are terrific roleplaying experiences. This doesn't include Mass Effect as that's more of a cinematic experience. You sit back and watch Shepard do the roleplaying for you. It's very passive and it doesn't require much player participation. I think some of you need to realize that these games offer wildly different experiences when it comes to roleplaying.

I think some people need to realize that it's practically impossible to deliver a PNP RPG experience with a computer (or console, whatever, for this discussion they are the same). It's simply not possible--at least not yet--to account for the innumerable different ways a player may wish their character to approach a situation. Maybe when voice recognition and generation is vastly improved, along with text parsing and artificial intelligence that can take a verbal response from the player, process it, and react according to a set of parameters that define the character with whom the player is interacting. Sorry, technology is just not there yet, so that's still where PNP games with other human players and a GM dominate. 

So given the limitations of the technology we have, I'm in favor of a more structured narrative. A more defined player character allows the writers to take the story in certain directions that hopefully will be more interesting than those which must accomodate for knight in shining armor paladin types, or sarcastic rogues, wasteland tribal medicine men with asperger's, post-structuralist existentialists, etc. etc.  and as a result have to be written out in a bloated line list with numerous options which all tend to inevitably lead in the same direction regardless. Meh. Whatever, I don't really care to convince anyone, I just think it's a bit ridiculous to act as though you can't roleplay in a Bioware game because it has a wheel instead of a line list. 

[aries1001]

I'm one of the old time Bioware players (played since BG1 and BG2) and I absolutely love the dialogue wheel, especially the way it is done in DA2. And to those who want to read what you're saying - you can go into the menu options and turn the option for -subtitles- always on.

[StormbringerGT]

Nomen Mendax wrote...

 So let's make everyone happy.  For DA3

• Get rid of the dialogue wheel (because it doesn't easily allow the display of multiple sentences of a reasonable length) and use a standard old-fashioned dialogue tree
• Allow the user the option of toggling intent icon's on and off
• Allow the user the option of showing paraphrase or full response text

OK so that should say "everyone happy except Bioware" (because of all of the extra work putting in the options).

I'm not a big fan of the "old-fasnioned" dialogue tree.

The icon doesn't bother me, but a toggle seems harmless enough.

Full response just cannot work in some instances. Either the response would span the length of teh screen and sometimes more ot ir would shrink to a tiny paragraph if your character said anything more than few sentences.

[AkiKishi]

StormbringerGT wrote...

And what seem people seem to fail to understand is the reasons behind these changes. PnP, Video games, they are all companies. As a company it needs money to grow. When I company tries to appeal to that broader audience people on far left side and far right side are going to feel left out. Thats just how it is.

Like the above poster I've seen a lot of changes as well, and some I were not happy with yet I live. They were business decesions or even sometimes, creative decisions. A company can't cater to the 15,000 people anymore and still maintain its health and growth. It has to try and cater to the 15,000,000 million other potential customers.

As a matter of fact falling into a minority is a world issue, that goes far beyond the borders of video games. It goes as far as president choice, to laws to everything. On a very basic level it always makes more sense to make the majority of people happy as oppose to the minority, it sucks for the minority but its a lesson has happened and will continue to happen.

I already posted words to that effect further up. But regardless that does not make the wheel better for roleplaying. It just dumbs it down so more people can buy the game. I've never disagreed with that premise anyway. It's clear that Bioware are hoping for a ME-ME2 sales leap with DA2.

Complaining is like voting. If you don't do it when you see something wrong, then you lose the right to complain

[AntiChri5]

Nomen Mendax wrote...

 So let's make everyone happy.  For DA3

• Get rid of the dialogue wheel (because it doesn't easily allow the display of multiple sentences of a reasonable length) and use a standard old-fashioned dialogue tree
• Allow the user the option of toggling intent icon's on and off
• Allow the user the option of showing paraphrase or full response text

OK so that should say "everyone happy except Bioware" (because of all of the extra work putting in the options).

It sure as hell doesn't make me happy. And the wheel could easily have decent sentences, they simply decided not to.

[JohnCena94]

I prefer the changes.It's VO so I prefer a simple few words to get the idea of what Im saying and then hear it. The real disscussion goes back to silent vs voiced pc which has seemingly the community split so either way Bioware couldn't win.

[David Gaider]

Marionetten wrote...
Sounds like a good start. As an addendum, I'd like them to get rid of personality tracking. It's far too similar to alignment.

Personality tracking that not only doesn't have anything in common with alignment but which you also haven't seen the effects of.

Not that there's any pre-judging going on here, right? Just a bunch of people who approached the demo with an open mind and are now extrapolating what the entire game will be like from that? Yep.

[AkiKishi]

marshalleck wrote...

I think some people need to realize that it's practically impossible to deliver a PNP RPG experience with a computer (or console, whatever, for this discussion they are the same). It's simply not possible--at least not yet--to account for the innumerable different ways a player may wish their character to approach a situation. Maybe when voice recognition and generation is vastly improved, along with text parsing and artificial intelligence that can take a verbal response from the player, process it, and react according to a set of parameters that define the character with whom the player is interacting. Sorry, technology is just not there yet, so that's still where PNP games with other human players and a GM dominate. 

But games like BGI/II have come a lot closer to it. Which means the only reason it's not being done today is money.

I blame FF VII