992 réponses à ce sujet

[StormbringerGT]

[quote]TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

[quote]Nomen Mendax wrote...
ur also going to have to have alot of different voice actors and a toggle for voices for those who dont want any....o and different voice actors for all characters. and have alot of decisions from the first significantly impact the 2nd. did i miss any more complaints from the outspoken of the bioware community???[/quote]

Sadly as far as the outspoken community goes, of the 800,000 people who have downloaded the demo, it seems like we may have 10,000, probably far less, active posters here. Of that number, the amount of people who are unhappy with some decisions the game has taken seem to be far less (just very loud).

[Sylvius the Mad]

Melness wrote...

You've never complained about any aspect of DA:O?

I certainly didn't complain about this aspect of DAO, because DAO did it very well.

So did BG, and NWN, and KotOR.  Jade Empire did it pretty well, too.  But the ME games failed horribly.

If I were to give DAO a 9/10, I think I'd give ME2 4/10.

[Nomen Mendax]

David Gaider wrote...

Nomen Mendax wrote...
So let's make everyone happy.  For DA3

• Get rid of the dialogue wheel (because it doesn't easily allow the display of multiple sentences of a reasonable length) and use a standard old-fashioned dialogue tree
• Allow the user the option of toggling intent icon's on and off
• Allow the user the option of showing paraphrase or full response text

OK so that should say "everyone happy except Bioware" (because of all of the extra work putting in the options).

Yeah... sorry, but a toggle is not the answer to every design issue. Sometimes doing both means inheriting the weaknesses of both.

I was assuming that it was a somewhat implausible suggestion.  But I do hope that you recognize that paraphrase and intent icons negatively affect the game for some people (for me its the paraphrases).

On another note this discussion made me think about writing that leaves more space for the reader (or player) to put in their own interpretations.  Is this something that you guys think about because it seems like ME2, and at least the UI of DA2 (as I obviously cannot reasonably comment on the game itself) are moving away from this?

[marshalleck]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Complaining is like voting. If you don't do it when you see something wrong, then you lose the right to complain

That's incredibly naive. Refusing to choose one of a handful of options one considers repugnant is a valid decision. In fact, I personally wish more people would exercise their right to NOT indulge in games/activities/products/politicians they don't like. 

[Galad22]

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

its not. just the name itself shows that. its a game first and formost. the terms "role playing" are modifiers.

There's a name for that fallacy.  I can't seem to think of it right now.

so you dont have a response...other than you cant think of one??? and obviously you are looking for a simulator...not a game...go play sims.....

I would say your fallacy is

Irrevalant conclusion: diverts attention away from a fact in dispute rather than addressing it directly.


Example:
Argument: Billy believes that war is justifiable, therefore it must be justifiable.Problem: Billy can be wrong.


Of course I can be wrong, My English isn't perfect.

[TGFKAMAdmaX]

[quote]StormbringerGT wrote...

[quote]TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

[quote]Nomen Mendax wrote...
ur also going to have to have alot of different voice actors and a toggle for voices for those who dont want any....o and different voice actors for all characters. and have alot of decisions from the first significantly impact the 2nd. did i miss any more complaints from the outspoken of the bioware community???[/quote]

Sadly as far as the outspoken community goes, of the 800,000 people who have downloaded the demo, it seems like we may have 10,000, probably far less, active posters here. Of that number, the amount of people who are unhappy with some decisions the game has taken seem to be far less (just very loud).

[/quote]
thats wat i mean....those that hate the changes rank so few....at least the ones that voice it. im pretty sure that bioware didnt build itself up to wat it is today by not knowing what they are doing. you cant account for everyone...

[StormbringerGT]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Melness wrote...

You've never complained about any aspect of DA:O?

I certainly didn't complain about this aspect of DAO, because DAO did it very well.

So did BG, and NWN, and KotOR.  Jade Empire did it pretty well, too.  But the ME games failed horribly.

If I were to give DAO a 9/10, I think I'd give ME2 4/10.

Faied horribly for you? Or failed horribly from a business standpoint?

[Marionetten]

David Gaider wrote...

Personality tracking that not only doesn't have anything in common with alignment but which you also haven't seen the effects of.

Not that there's any pre-judging going on here, right? Just a bunch of people who approached the demo with an open mind and are now extrapolating what the entire game will be like from that? Yep.

Well, I'm going by what I saw in the demo. Is there truly such a massive difference between having sarcastic Hawke, angry Hawke and diplomatic Hawke versus having chaotic neutral Hawke, chaotic evil Hawke and chaotic good Hawke? We're still working with caricatures here. I don't particularly mind the system presented as much as the repercussions of it. Being sarcastic three times, angry two times and diplomatic one time shouldn't automatically relegate me to the role of sarcastic Hawke.

It's hard to say anything about how the system performs in the actual game as I've yet to experience it. But what I have experienced did not sit well with me and did indeed remind me of alignment tracking.

Modifié par Marionetten, 24 février 2011 - 08:46 .

[Vena_86]

I do agree with the people saying it is not as simple as in ME/ME2 and that it basicly is the same as in DA:O.
HOWEVER, I think it can not be denied that most people will choose their dialogue options according to the position and "tone" picture first, and the actual response second. Just like you would mainly look for the blue or red responses in ME first.
The system gives us more input, but as a nasty side effect, the audience loses attention to the dialogue, because the tone pictures and positions (top, middle, bottom) are faster to grasp than reading the text. Humans are lazy, and sometimes you have to make them work for their own good.

Modifié par Vena_86, 25 février 2011 - 12:03 .

[Drawn75]

Wish the Icon isn't there to make it interesting. Don't really mind the simplification of things, like others have brought up, it's not new. We used to have to type what we want to say, and what we want to ask. If you want to bring back the Monkey Island™ style dialogue selection might as well ask to bring back King's Quest style conversation where we actually have to ask questions ourselves.



As long as the game is immersible that's all I care for. Played way too many games now and have seen/done them all, it's really easy to loose interest if the game can't create an immersible atmosphere and interests me, DA:O sort of lost that toward the very end but ME2 was great throughout so hopefully DA2 can finish strong like ME2 did.

[StormbringerGT]

marshalleck wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Complaining is like voting. If you don't do it when you see something wrong, then you lose the right to complain

That's incredibly naive. Refusing to choose one of a handful of options one considers repugnant is a valid decision. In fact, I personally wish more people would exercise their right to NOT indulge in games/activities/products/politicians they don't like. 

Exactly. Not voting is still a vote. You voted for none of the above.

[Maria Caliban]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Do you like the 3 path "RPG" system?

Yes.

[Galad22]

David Gaider wrote...

Marionetten wrote...
Sounds like a good start. As an addendum, I'd like them to get rid of personality tracking. It's far too similar to alignment.

Personality tracking that not only doesn't have anything in common with alignment but which you also haven't seen the effects of.

Not that there's any pre-judging going on here, right? Just a bunch of people who approached the demo with an open mind and are now extrapolating what the entire game will be like from that? Yep.

Hey that is not fair, we aproached it with open mind. It just proved that some of our fears were completely true.

[Nomen Mendax]

David Gaider wrote...

Marionetten wrote...
Sounds like a good start. As an addendum, I'd like them to get rid of personality tracking. It's far too similar to alignment.

Personality tracking that not only doesn't have anything in common with alignment but which you also haven't seen the effects of.

Not that there's any pre-judging going on here, right? Just a bunch of people who approached the demo with an open mind and are now extrapolating what the entire game will be like from that? Yep.

Although, to be fair, that is kind of the danger of releasing a demo.

[StormbringerGT]

Maria Caliban wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Do you like the 3 path "RPG" system?

Yes.

I always find myself smiling at the stuff you say! (no not sarcastic)

[StormbringerGT]

Galad22 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Marionetten wrote...
Sounds like a good start. As an addendum, I'd like them to get rid of personality tracking. It's far too similar to alignment.

Personality tracking that not only doesn't have anything in common with alignment but which you also haven't seen the effects of.

Not that there's any pre-judging going on here, right? Just a bunch of people who approached the demo with an open mind and are now extrapolating what the entire game will be like from that? Yep.

Hey that is not fair, we aproached it with open mind. It just proved that some of our fears were completely true.

Speak for yourself not everyone approched it with an open mind.

Sounds like a lot of people approached as an expansion to Dragon Age Origins.

[falconlord5]

Galad22 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Marionetten wrote...
Sounds like a good start. As an addendum, I'd like them to get rid of personality tracking. It's far too similar to alignment.

Personality tracking that not only doesn't have anything in common with alignment but which you also haven't seen the effects of.

Not that there's any pre-judging going on here, right? Just a bunch of people who approached the demo with an open mind and are now extrapolating what the entire game will be like from that? Yep.

Hey that is not fair, we aproached it with open mind. It just proved that some of our fears were completely true.

To approach anything with any preconcieved notions, is to approach it with a closed mind.

So says a Buddhist friend, anyway.

[Sylvius the Mad]

David Gaider wrote...

Not that there's any pre-judging going on here, right? Just a bunch of people who approached the demo with an open mind and are now extrapolating what the entire game will be like from that?

I don't think it's fair to judge DA2's dialogue wheel based on the demo, because we don't know what those icons mean yet.

[WilliamShatner]

Razaroh wrote...

Mordaedil wrote...
I thought the point of any and all RPG's to be to tell your own story. But then again, I actually do roleplaying.

I thought the point of an RPG was to tell a story. The amount of control the player has vary from game to game, but one can never truly tell their own story within a game.

It's like writing a huge amount of Harry/Harmonie fanfiction, but then having the author pair Harry up with Ginny. You may be angry after all those hours of hard work rendered meaningless, but in the end the characters and the setting were never truly yours to begin with.

We are all but guests in The Dragon Age world. If someone wants to roleplay that the Blight was nothing but a dream, let him. Just understand that the writers are in no way obligated to twist all future stories around his version of Origins.

And what a load of bollox that was!  Harry should have been paired up with Hermione and Ron should have been paired up with Ginny.  Sometimes fans do know better.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Maria Caliban wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Do you like the 3 path "RPG" system?

Yes.

I deny that the 3 paths were there prior to ME.

[Galad22]

StormbringerGT wrote...

Speak for yourself not everyone approched it with an open mind.

Sounds like a lot of people approached as an expansion to Dragon Age Origins.

Which oddly enough it is not expansion to mass effect.

Modifié par Galad22, 24 février 2011 - 08:51 .

[Wulfram]

David Gaider wrote...

Personality tracking that not only doesn't have anything in common with alignment but which you also haven't seen the effects of.

Not that there's any pre-judging going on here, right? Just a bunch of people who approached the demo with an open mind and are now extrapolating what the entire game will be like from that? Yep.

I think you're gaining more sales than you're losing with pre-judging.  Doubt I'd buy the game based on the demo alone.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Razaroh wrote...

I thought the point of an RPG was to tell a story.

I think the point of an RPG is to let me tell a story.

[TGFKAMAdmaX]

Galad22 wrote...

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

its not. just the name itself shows that. its a game first and formost. the terms "role playing" are modifiers.

There's a name for that fallacy.  I can't seem to think of it right now.

so you dont have a response...other than you cant think of one??? and obviously you are looking for a simulator...not a game...go play sims.....

I would say your fallacy is

Irrevalant conclusion: diverts attention away from a fact in dispute rather than addressing it directly.


Example:
Argument: Billy believes that war is justifiable, therefore it must be justifiable.Problem: Billy can be wrong.


Of course I can be wrong, My English isn't perfect.

i believe you just argued against S the mad. take for instance: a tall man went to the store. who went to the store???it wasnt a tall...it was a man. tall is merely a modifier and although being tall is one of the characteristics of the man. he is first and foremost a man. just as a game that is roleplaying is a game first and foremost. we gamers pay money in order to play the games that bioware makes. it is there vision and if we so choose we can pay cash to experience it. any choices we make in the game are allowed to us by the creators. "the Mad" has a problem that he decided to create his own game in his head by using the lack of intent in the first. because it was not an intended feature however most people find it ridiculous to complain. now i addressed the issue.

[Sylvius the Mad]

AlanC9 wrote...

Over on the ME2 board someone -- IIRC Walker White, who sometimes posts here -- pointed out that while there's a lot of chatter about how Bio's now catering to all the new players who don't really like RPGs, the real long-term RPG fans are fairly likely to approve of Bio is experimenting with different mechanics. Probably because we've seen mechanics come and go over the decades. It's the gamers a bit younger than us who are more committed to mechanics circa 2000 as The Way RPGs Ought To Be.

The genre had already staerted to go wrong by 2000.