992 réponses à ce sujet

[FieryDove]

Vicious wrote...

Bioware makes the games THEY want to make.

Take it or leave it.

Do they have drive thru? If not forget it.

[Blastback]

David Gaider wrote...

Nomen Mendax wrote...
So let's make everyone happy.  For DA3

• Get rid of the dialogue wheel (because it doesn't easily allow the display of multiple sentences of a reasonable length) and use a standard old-fashioned dialogue tree
  
• Allow the user the option of toggling intent icon's on and off
  
• Allow the user the option of showing paraphrase or full response text

OK so that should say "everyone happy except Bioware" (because of all of the extra work putting in the options).

Yeah... sorry, but a toggle is not the answer to every design issue. Sometimes doing both means inheriting the weaknesses of both.

 
How would this scenario potentially work?  Keep the dialoge wheel and intent icons as they are, however, if you uh, highlight a paraphrase and let it sit for a certain length of time, then the exact line that the character will say will appear above the dialoge wheel.  Allow for the more natural flow of conversation provided by the wheel, and the more delibrate approach that some others like.  You'd still have people complaining about the voiced PC, but yeah.  Just an idea for a toggleless solution.  So no kitten kicking required.  Unless you just wanted to.

[marshalleck]

Steks25 wrote...

Mass effect, eventually I just stopped reading the options and just went with
"top, middle or bottom" i.e. "good, neutral or evil" based on what character I was playing.

I suppose that works if your character concepts are as varied and nuanced as good, neutral, and evil. 

It amuses me how often I am seeing this argument voiced in this thread as though it's an incrimination of the wheel and not the player simply going always top, always middle, always bottom, herp derp!

Modifié par marshalleck, 24 février 2011 - 10:16 .

[wulfsturm]

Galad22 wrote...

They make games they think PEOPLE want. Very different.

Judging by their track record so far, I think they generally know what people want.

[Morroian]

BobSmith101 wrote...

DA2 is very different because it completely removes the character building. You get one character and that's it.

The problem I have with Biowares system DA2/ME is that you get all the negatives, but no positives. Your characters development is non existent. That is the only good reason to have a pregenerated character like they do in JRPGs so they can grow along with the plot.

Hawke isn't pre-generated you can build him into your character as you want him to be, via character development. Sure we got 6 origins in DAO but each of those origins was just as fixed as Hawke is. And as has been said many times after the origin story there was very little difference in the way the character was treated. 

[Galad22]

wulfsturm wrote...

Galad22 wrote...

They make games they think PEOPLE want. Very different.

Judging by their track record so far, I think they generally know what people want.

I don't disagree. They totally messed with neverwinter nights but othervise their track record have been quite clean.

It just little sad.

[AkiKishi]

marshalleck wrote...
I suppose that works if your character concepts are as varied and nuanced as good, neutral, and evil. 

Any of the options work for a pre-gen character.

[foam]

Thank you, Gaider, for reassuring us.

I'm still afraid a lot of the RPG experience will vanish along with the silent protagonist, but it makes me happy to know that the wheel works just fine. I'm positive I'll enjoy DA2, though not, perhaps, in the same way as I did DAO.

[Morroian]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Trying to figure out which wheel option produces the response I want requires a ton of thought right now, because the paraphrases don't correspond even to the sentence type of the actual line, and the icons haven't been defined for us (and the icons also constrain what each line can be).  We're basically being asked to solve a puzzle with each dialogue option, unless we're willing to accept the simplistic trichotomy you describe.

Well yeah but you will know what the icons represent when you get the game.

As for the paraphrases like 1 of the devs said in a previous thread on this you have to treat the paraphrase as the beginning phrase of what Hawke says. Its a bit of a paradigm shift.

[AkiKishi]

Morroian wrote...

Hawke isn't pre-generated you can build him into your character as you want him to be, via character development. Sure we got 6 origins in DAO but each of those origins was just as fixed as Hawke is. And as has been said many times after the origin story there was very little difference in the way the character was treated. 

Umm no. You get one Hawke. You can change the appearence, but do you think that even matters? It makes zippo difference in game.
You can pick different options and see different endings, but it's still Hawke. Just how ME is still Shepard.

The orginis were background nothing more. Each character could come out differently based on what happened. The outcome was fixed, but there were plenty of variable events to shape a persona from.
There were some big differences in how characters were treated. That's why the dwarf noble was so popular.
But being a Grey Warden supercedes that anyway.

[Sylvius the Mad]

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

and other games are doing this as well. look at most shooters today. they usually have a class system implemented to encourage replayability and for players to fulfill certain roles...they are borrowing from rpgs....stop crying and get over it.....it is still an rpg at heart.

For the record, I don't like class systems.  That's why GURPS was better than D&D.

The-Sapient wrote...

I enjoy Bioware games because they allow me to participate in great story telling.

That isn't a terribly helpful answer, because that's what I want, too.  I just don't think that the dialogue wheel games let me do that.

Maria Caliban wrote...

They have them all listed in the manual. I believe they have over 12 icons altogether.

Until I get that manual, I can't even begin to enjoy the demo.

What is the demo actually supposed to be showing us?

[Steks25]

marshalleck wrote...

I suppose that works if your character concepts are as varied and nuanced as good, neutral, and evil. 

It amuses me how often I am seeing this argument voiced in this thread as though it's an incrimination of the wheel and not the player simply going always top, always middle, always bottom. 

Because you cant NOT do that...
They basically tell you:

-good (usually something to do with avoiding a fight)
-Neutral (simply advancing the conversation)
-evil (starting a fight or killing the person)

And you ONLY have those 3 options, how can I do things differently.
I liked the DA1 system, you had alot of choices and you could basically pick something close to what you actually wanted to say, and it wasnt labelled as "good" "neutral" "evil"

Say a beggar comes up to my hawke and asks him if he could spare some change, I can choose:

1.But of course, here you go poor man.
2.Avoid the conversation so you dont get any "good" or "bad points"
3.Kill him

What If I wanted to tell him to get the hell away from me and not kill him?
Or something else that was not covered in those 3 oversimplified choices.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Morroian wrote...

As for the paraphrases like 1 of the devs said in a previous thread on this you have to treat the paraphrase as the beginning phrase of what Hawke says. Its a bit of a paradigm shift.

I remember.

I'll give that a shot at some point, I'm sure, but I expect that will annoy me even more.  If the paraphrase encapsulates what it is I want Hawke to say, I don't want him to keep talking about other things.  Sometimes he even changes topics.

[Duelingk]

I dislike the new system. Its now even easier to just choose the "good/paragon/diplomatic" option without much thought or reasoning behind it. Before I had to actually choose the option I wanted and think about how it would effect my character and if I would like the outcome. Some choices were obvious even in the first one, but there was some depth to it.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Steks25 wrote...

Say a beggar comes up to my hawke and asks him if he could spare some change, I can choose:

1.But of course, here you go poor man.
2.Avoid the conversation so you dont get any "good" or "bad points"
3.Kill him

What If I wanted to tell him to get the hell away from me and not kill him?

Choose option #2 in a dismissive way.

See, that's what DA2 won't let us do.  DA2 won't let us choose an option and then deliver it in a way the writers didn't foresee.  DAO did let us do that.  The game never acknowledged that we'd done it, but we had still done it.  They couldn't take that away from us.

DA2 doesn't give us that option.

[Maria Caliban]

marshalleck wrote...

Steks25 wrote...

Mass effect, eventually I just stopped reading the options and just went with
"top, middle or bottom" i.e. "good, neutral or evil" based on what character I was playing.

I suppose that works if your character concepts are as varied and nuanced as good, neutral, and evil. 

It amuses me how often I am seeing this argument voiced in this thread as though it's an incrimination of the wheel and not the player simply going always top, always middle, always bottom, herp derp!

You needed high paragon or high renegade for certain dialogue options. Typically the best dialogue options.

Also, the difference between paragon and renegade were more than tone. A paragon option might be 'get off my station' while a renegade one would be to blast the person's head off.

I stuck to mostly paragon because the renegade options weren't just aggressive but racist, murderous, and brutish on occasion.

[Galad22]

double post

Modifié par Galad22, 24 février 2011 - 10:29 .

[Galad22]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Until I get that manual, I can't even begin to enjoy the demo.

What is the demo actually supposed to be showing us?

Someone helpfully taught me that it propably was supposed to show us combat and dialogue wheel, since those were the big changes.

Someone else helpfully taught me that I didn't know a thing about marketing since I assumed there would be side quest or at least hints of them in a demo if those things were in a full game.

[foam]

Morroian wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

DA2 is very different because it completely removes the character building. You get one character and that's it.

The problem I have with Biowares system DA2/ME is that you get all the negatives, but no positives. Your characters development is non existent. That is the only good reason to have a pregenerated character like they do in JRPGs so they can grow along with the plot.

Hawke isn't pre-generated you can build him into your character as you want him to be, via character development. Sure we got 6 origins in DAO but each of those origins was just as fixed as Hawke is. And as has been said many times after the origin story there was very little difference in the way the character was treated. 

I agree with you about Hawke not being pre-generated, but the difference is the illusion of freedom and playing as your own character. Of course the choices will be limited, but as long as they feel endless they might as well be. We have yet to see if DA2 pulls this off. Though I must say, as someone who loves to roleplay, DA2 rubs me the wrong way with the voiced protagonist. I don't think I'll be able to think of Hawke as my character.

[Morroian]

Duelingk wrote...

I dislike the new system. Its now even easier to just choose the "good/paragon/diplomatic" option without much thought or reasoning behind it.

So? Thats up to the player, you can put more thought into it if you want.

[AkiKishi]

Maria Caliban wrote...

You needed high paragon or high renegade for certain dialogue options. Typically the best dialogue options.

Also, the difference between paragon and renegade were more than tone. A paragon option might be 'get off my station' while a renegade one would be to blast the person's head off.

I stuck to mostly paragon because the renegade options weren't just aggressive but racist, murderous, and brutish on occasion.

Renegade Shepard is a massive tool. From what I've seen of the demo DA2 is less extreme in any direction, but thats only a small selection of conversations.

[AlanC9]

Steks25 wrote...
And you ONLY have those 3 options, how can I do things differently.
I liked the DA1 system, you had alot of choices and you could basically pick something close to what you actually wanted to say, and it wasnt labelled as "good" "neutral" "evil"

This is just false. In DAO most of the time you had three choices, if that. While thse choices weren't labeled, they typically were good-neutral-evil, or diplomativ-neutral-violent, or whatever you want to call them. And in that order.

Maybe you were able to fool yourself into thinking there was something else going on in DAO, bu there really wasn't.

[Steks25]

Morroian wrote...

So? Thats up to the player, you can put more thought into it if you want.

But no, you cant...thats the point.

[AkiKishi]

foam wrote...

I agree with you about Hawke not being pre-generated, but the difference is the illusion of freedom and playing as your own character. Of course the choices will be limited, but as long as they feel endless they might as well be. We have yet to see if DA2 pulls this off. Though I must say, as someone who loves to roleplay, DA2 rubs me the wrong way with the voiced protagonist. I don't think I'll be able to think of Hawke as my character.

Don't worry about it just accept that Hawke is pre-generated personality. It's much easier to enjoy these games once you accept that.