992 réponses à ce sujet

[Morroian]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Hawke isn't pre-generated you can build him into your character as you want him to be, via character development. Sure we got 6 origins in DAO but each of those origins was just as fixed as Hawke is. And as has been said many times after the origin story there was very little difference in the way the character was treated. 

Umm no. You get one Hawke. You can change the appearence, but do you think that even matters? It makes zippo difference in game.

After the origins the race made little difference in game in DAO.

BobSmith101 wrote...
You can pick different options and see different endings, but it's still Hawke. Just how ME is still Shepard.

What do you define as character development? Because to me getting choices of how to respond and interact via 12 different tones is character development. You can build him up into an aggressive bastard or be more of a diplomat. Which is pretty similar to DAO.

BobSmith101 wrote...

The orginis were background nothing more. Each character could come out differently based on what happened. The outcome was fixed, but there were plenty of variable events to shape a persona from.
There were some big differences in how characters were treated.

No there weren't, you've got rose coloured glasses on.

[Morroian]

Steks25 wrote...

Morroian wrote...

So? Thats up to the player, you can put more thought into it if you want.

But no, you cant...thats the point.

What, is the game controlling you to just pick 1 choice all the time.

[Galad22]

Morroian wrote...

After the origins the race made little difference in game in DAO.

But they made some difference. What is most important you didn't have to play as a human. Which should be granted in a fantasy game.

And anyway they should have improved about it to make it have more difference, instead they chose easy way and just got rid of all other races.

Modifié par Galad22, 24 février 2011 - 10:40 .

[Morroian]

Galad22 wrote...

Morroian wrote...

After the origins the race made little difference in game in DAO.

But they made some difference. What is most important you didn't have to play as a human. Which should be granted in a fantasy game.

There have been many threads on this pointing out that many great rpgs don't give you that choice. It is not some essential element of an rpg. Plus there are clearly very good ingame reasons why Hawke is restricted to human.

[foam]

Wyndham711 wrote...

I'm still very disappointed about paraphrasing and PC VO. I won't be able to roleplay in DA2 as I could in Origins, and that saddens me. Of cource I may well be able to enjoy DA2 from other standpoints than that of roleplaying - it is indeed my expectation.
If the world is half as enthralling and the characters half as charming as they were in Origins, I'm pretty sure I'll enjoy my stay in the Free Marches. Still, I'd very much like to be able to roleplay.

These are more or less my thoughts on the matter (only much more eloquent and coherent).

[Galad22]

Morroian wrote...

Galad22 wrote...

Morroian wrote...

After the origins the race made little difference in game in DAO.

But they made some difference. What is most important you didn't have to play as a human. Which should be granted in a fantasy game.

There have been many threads on this pointing out that many great rpgs don't give you that choice. It is not some essential element of an rpg. Plus there are clearly very good ingame reasons why Hawke is restricted to human.

Ah, but origins did. Why wouldn't you build up on your predecessors strenghts?

[AkiKishi]

Morroian wrote...

There have been many threads on this pointing out that many great rpgs don't give you that choice. It is not some essential element of an rpg. Plus there are clearly very good ingame reasons why Hawke is restricted to human.

Because they wanted to write a story about a specific character called Hawke. That's why you can't be anyone else and why Hawke is a pre-generated character.

Remove Hawke and DA2 falls appart. That's the "test" of a pre-gen character. DA does not fall appart if you change the lead character.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 24 février 2011 - 10:45 .

[Steks25]

AlanC9 wrote...

This is just false. In DAO most of the time you had three choices, if that. While thse choices weren't labeled, they typically were good-neutral-evil, or diplomativ-neutral-violent, or whatever you want to call them. And in that order.

Maybe you were able to fool yourself into thinking there was something else going on in DAO, bu there really wasn't.

My point is in DA1 in the example I've given, you would have 10different responses to pick from, yes they do in the end boil down to 3-4 pre determined paths, but atleast you had the choice to pick a way to deliver those lines.

Its ROLEPLAY cmon - we're talking about a frikkin Bioware rpg damnit...

Morroian wrote...

What, is the game controlling you to just pick 1 choice all the time.

Err no, but theres no thought involved, like I said, you already know what the outcome will be for each of the choices....Hell you dont even have to READ what your character is gonna say.

[BWBamboo]

I think the wheel and its paraphrased options make perfect sense for a game with a voiced protagonist.
With a silent protagonist, sure, you'd need to be able to read the full response before choosing; with a voiced PC, I don't want to read the whole thing and then hear it again, kinda makes the VA redundant. Adding icons for tone is just an excellent idea whether you're paraphrasing or not.
Saying introducing a dialogue wheel dumbs down the game as you no longer need to read the dialogue options is kinda weird in my opinion: I can read, been doing it for ages. Not having to read dialogue options that amount to a medium-length book is a good thing, for one 'cause I'm lazy and then because I want to play rather than read. Have the codex voiced as well, please. It doesn't "dumb down" the game, it makes it more accessible and more enjoyable. I mean, it's not like choosing a dialogue option based on a transcript requires you to be smarter or is any more difficult than choosing one based on a paraphrase.

Also: roleplaying in a CRPG has always been and will always be limited by the options the developer has implemented. By nature, a CRPG is not a very good platform for traditional roleplaying; what it can do is offer you different ways to approach a situation (be it in combat, character specialization or conversation). That DA2 does.

[ziloe]

JamieCOTC wrote...

ziloe wrote...

 Have you actually played the demo?

I played through it several times utilizing the various dialogue options. It doesn't push you into a corner. It just depends on the situation you're currently dealing with. For instance, when you first meet Aveline's husband, picking the last option doesn't mean you're picking an evil path, it's just you protecting your sister. 

Great example and to be honest I barely noticed the icons, but even so I like that they are there.  I don't know what the hell is going to come out of my Shepard's mouth sometimes and that can be very frustrating.

Shepard was just awkward when it came to those. I mean, I remember in the first game when that guy asked me to get back his wife's remains and I talked to the other guy and my intention was to tell him to have more respect for the dead, but instead Shepard slams him against the wall, threatening his life. XD

But that's also how they determined your path. In DA, it's largely through the choices you make throughout the game, not just depending on your every single dialogue option.

Either way, I don't see a problem with it, people react to what you say, that's life.

[ziloe]

ziloe wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

ziloe wrote...

 Have you actually played the demo?

I played through it several times utilizing the various dialogue options. It doesn't push you into a corner. It just depends on the situation you're currently dealing with. For instance, when you first meet Aveline's husband, picking the last option doesn't mean you're picking an evil path, it's just you protecting your sister. 

Great example and to be honest I barely noticed the icons, but even so I like that they are there.  I don't know what the hell is going to come out of my Shepard's mouth sometimes and that can be very frustrating.

Shepard was just awkward when it came to those. I mean, I remember in the first game when that guy asked me to get back his wife's remains and I talked to the other guy and my intention was to tell him to have more respect for the dead, but instead Shepard slams him against the wall, threatening his life. XD

But that's also how they determined your path. In DA, it's largely through the choices you make throughout the game, not just depending on your every single dialogue option.

Either way, I don't see a problem with it, people react to what you say and especially when you're a large influence on the said society. That's life.

[Veracruz]

David Gaider wrote...

at best many of the fans would have liked iterations. "Keep everything the same but also give us new stuff".

Unless you are talking NHL, Fifa and such "clone" games, that is usually named "Expansion pack". I don't that it's common to have a second or third installement of a game that is just like the original game ("Keep everything the same") but adding "new stuff" (in this case: new quests, equipment, NPCs, monsters, etc). The normal ting is that second parts are to correct stuff that didn't work in the first part, improve other areas, add new stuff that couldn't be done in the first, etc.

Just wait to release Mass Effect 3 and how some people complains because it's not like Mass Effect 2 (or Mass Effect for those who didn't like ME 2). Meanwhile, I'll enjoy good games for what they are. So far so good for myself with ME and DA series.

On topic, I like the "3 path" RPG system.:innocent:

[Infaela]

I'm getting a little bit frustrated with the repeated assertion that the dialogue wheel does nothing but dumb down the game for console players, who are apparently all illiterate. The dialogue wheel isn't there to make anything easier. Reading three to six dialogue options and then picking the one you most like for your character is not some Herculean mental feat. If you can read the skill and spell descriptions well enough to play the game effectively you can read the freakin' list of dialogue options too.



It's about character. Specifically, it's about making the main character something more than an empty shell for you to project yourself onto. I can see how having a voice inflicted upon you might grate for people who want to treat the MC as a fantastical version of themselves, and that not knowing what you're going to say before you say it can be worrisome, but for those of us who either can't or prefer not to imagine that the main character is just a mask for us to wear, it's great.



Just from playing the demo, both versions of Hawke already feel more like real people to me than any character I had in Origins. Now, am I worried that Hawke will sometimes say something I'll wish she hadn't? Yeah. But that's what the silly looking symbols are for. Shepard did that a few times, especially in ME1, but to me the emotional lure of having a main character I actually care about outweighs the occasional unhappy dialogue surprise.



I think it's a pretty clever compromise on Bioware's part. They've found a way to give you a story that you still get some control over while also giving you a main character with a personality. I loved DA:O, or I wouldn't be reading this forum, but I don't like to feel that the main character is the least interesting person in the room at any given time, and I pretty much always feel that way in RPGs with a silent main character who speaks only in 1s, 2s, 3s, and 4s.



This isn't dumbing down. It isn't oversimplifying. It's different, sure, but I think it has a lot of promise. I even got the impression that there was going to be a great deal more emotional complexity between the characters just from the subtle differences in how you could play the scene with Aveline and Wesley. That promise was hardly fulfilled there but heck, it's just a demo. I'd even go so far as to call this structure ambitious, considering the claims they've made about your character's overall tone enabling special options along the way. Considering Bioware's history I'm very willing to give them the chance to impress me.

[Pritos]

Galad22 wrote...

Morroian wrote...

After the origins the race made little difference in game in DAO.

But they made some difference. What is most important you didn't have to play as a human. Which should be granted in a fantasy game.

And anyway they should have improved about it to make it have more difference, instead they chose easy way and just got rid of all other races.

They got rid of other races because DAII's story is focused on the family. It's impossible to treat the relationship in a elven family the same way as in a human family, it would need a totally different game to do so. 

[Ms .45]

The Big Nothing wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...

I think it could be improved upon, but on the whole, I like it. It's not as clumsy or random as a sprawling menu; it is an elegant system, for a more civilized age.

Aww, man. Nice Star Wars reference!

Did you just big-up your own post? 

[AlanC9]

Steks25 wrote...
My point is in DA1 in the example I've given, you would have 10different responses to pick from, yes they do in the end boil down to 3-4 pre determined paths, but atleast you had the choice to pick a way to deliver those lines.

If you're going to just make up numbers, at least pick plausible ones. There weren't any DAO dialog nodes with ten choices.

[JrayM16]

Steks25 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

This is just false. In DAO most of the time you had three choices, if that. While thse choices weren't labeled, they typically were good-neutral-evil, or diplomativ-neutral-violent, or whatever you want to call them. And in that order.

Maybe you were able to fool yourself into thinking there was something else going on in DAO, bu there really wasn't.

My point is in DA1 in the example I've given, you would have 10different responses to pick from, yes they do in the end boil down to 3-4 pre determined paths, but atleast you had the choice to pick a way to deliver those lines.

Its ROLEPLAY cmon - we're talking about a frikkin Bioware rpg damnit...

Meh, there were like 6 max.  And three of those were usually information options and it boiled down to 2 or 3 chocies.

Morroian wrote...

What, is the game controlling you to just pick 1 choice all the time.

Err no, but theres no thought involved, like I said, you already know what the outcome will be for each of the choices....Hell you dont even have to READ what your character is gonna say.

But you CAN read, that's the important part.  Just because someone out there can click their way through the game shouldn't reduce your enjoyment as long as you actually make the effort to read what's there.

[DPB]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Remove Hawke and DA2 falls appart. That's the "test" of a pre-gen character. DA does not fall appart if you change the lead character.

Remove the Bhaalspawn and BG/BG2 falls apart. Remove *spoiler* and KOTOR falls apart. Remove the Spirit Monk and JE falls apart.

This is not new.

[Ms .45]

I like the dialogue wheel. One of the disappointing things about Origins was the fact that it was often really obvious where the dialogue was leading (quite opposite to Mike Laidlaw's "Zevran moments"), thus giving away what was to happen next. I like the element of surprise the wheel gives - you're suggesting a character, rather than just getting "to flirt with Alistair, turn to page 33".



And there are clearly much more than three choices. I've deliberately not looked up what they are so that I can work it out myself, but even in the demo there were obviously more than three basic "tone" icons.

[Smertnik]

BWBamboo wrote...

I think the wheel and its paraphrased options make perfect sense for a game with a voiced protagonist.
With a silent protagonist, sure, you'd need to be able to read the full response before choosing; with a voiced PC, I don't want to read the whole thing and then hear it again, kinda makes the VA redundant. Adding icons for tone is just an excellent idea whether you're paraphrasing or not.

Exactly.  There's absolutely no reason to write out the dialog when your character is going to say it anyway. 

[Melness]

And there are clearly much more than three choices. I've deliberately not looked up what they are so that I can work it out myself, but even in the demo there were obviously more than three basic "tone" icons.

I think that, according to Gaider in this very thread, the choices are pretty much the same as Origins in both kind and quantity.

[Steks25]

AlanC9 wrote...

If you're going to just make up numbers, at least pick plausible ones. There weren't any DAO dialog nodes with ten choices.

JrayM16 wrote...

Meh, there were like 6 max. And three of those were usually information options and it boiled down to 2 or 3 chocies.

Sigh, I didn't actually count the choices you know...my point was that it was more than 3.

And thanks for completely ignoring the point I was trying to make.

I give up, you two really are idiots.

[AkiKishi]

dbankier wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Remove Hawke and DA2 falls appart. That's the "test" of a pre-gen character. DA does not fall appart if you change the lead character.

Remove the Bhaalspawn and BG/BG2 falls apart. Remove *spoiler* and KOTOR falls apart. Remove the Spirit Monk and JE falls apart.

This is not new.

Those are not specific characters though. That's the difference between being a pre-gen and having some background added. Nothing says that a child of Baal has to be human,but being Hawke makes you human by default.

[JrayM16]

Steks25 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

If you're going to just make up numbers, at least pick plausible ones. There weren't any DAO dialog nodes with ten choices.

JrayM16 wrote...

Meh, there were like 6 max. And three of those were usually information options and it boiled down to 2 or 3 chocies.

Sigh, I didn't actually count the choices you know...my point was that it was more than 3.

And thanks for completely ignoring the point I was trying to make.

I give up, you two really are idiots.

If you read my entire post, I was saying that there are 3 chocies it boils down to and then some filler options.  Thanks for completely ignoring the point I was trying to make.

I give, you really are an idiot.

[cactusberry]

I could care less about the wheel or a page of options, honestly.