992 réponses à ce sujet

[Krytheos]

Steks25 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

If you're going to just make up numbers, at least pick plausible ones. There weren't any DAO dialog nodes with ten choices.

JrayM16 wrote...

Meh, there were like 6 max. And three of those were usually information options and it boiled down to 2 or 3 chocies.

Sigh, I didn't actually count the choices you know...my point was that it was more than 3.

And thanks for completely ignoring the point I was trying to make.

I give up, you two really are idiots.

Here's a swell idea. Stop insulting people. Not everyone shares the same mindset as you might, and not everyone can read minds. Clarify next time. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

Galad22 wrote...

Someone helpfully taught me that it propably was supposed to show us combat and dialogue wheel, since those were the big changes.

Of course, it's not really showing us the wheel because the wheel doesn't work if we don't know what the icons mean.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Morroian wrote...

Steks25 wrote...

Morroian wrote...

So? Thats up to the player, you can put more thought into it if you want.

But no, you cant...thats the point.

What, is the game controlling you to just pick 1 choice all the time.

No, but the game isn't giving the player the information he needs to make a decision.

[Siven80]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Galad22 wrote...

Someone helpfully taught me that it propably was supposed to show us combat and dialogue wheel, since those were the big changes.

Of course, it's not really showing us the wheel because the wheel doesn't work if we don't know what the icons mean.

Can someone post one of those funny pics with say beating a dead horse the next time the Mad one mentions the icons?

thx

Modifié par Siven80, 24 février 2011 - 11:35 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

AlanC9 wrote...

Steks25 wrote...

My point is in DA1 in the example I've given, you would have 10different responses to pick from, yes they do in the end boil down to 3-4 pre determined paths, but atleast you had the choice to pick a way to deliver those lines.

If you're going to just make up numbers, at least pick plausible ones. There weren't any DAO dialog nodes with ten choices.

You don't need to have ten dialogue options in DAO to have ten different possible responses.  This has been my point all along.

Voicing the protagonist ties us to the delivery the writers intended.  This is bad.

[Morroian]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Morroian wrote...

What, is the game controlling you to just pick 1 choice all the time.

No, but the game isn't giving the player the information he needs to make a decision.

Its giving me the information I need. I've got ideas in my head for the way I want my characters to go and will be able to pick options accordingly.

[upsettingshorts]

Leaving the protagonist unvoiced ties us to an emotionless mute shell of a person who exists as little more than a mechanic for selecting which lines of dialogue the player wants the NPC to respond with.

[Morroian]

Galad22 wrote...

Morroian wrote...

There have been many threads on this pointing out that many great rpgs don't give you that choice. It is not some essential element of an rpg. Plus there are clearly very good ingame reasons why Hawke is restricted to human.

Ah, but origins did. Why wouldn't you build up on your predecessors strenghts?

Cause they're making a different game and the type of story they wanted to do didn't leave room for multiple origins.

[RoKPaNda]

Would hate it less if there were hotkeys.

[FieryDove]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Leaving the protagonist unvoiced ties us to an emotionless mute shell of a person who exists as little more than a mechanic for selecting which lines of dialogue the player wants the NPC to respond with.

My PC in JE was mute and could show facial expressions/emotion.

[Morroian]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Morroian wrote...

There have been many threads on this pointing out that many great rpgs don't give you that choice. It is not some essential element of an rpg. Plus there are clearly very good ingame reasons why Hawke is restricted to human.

Because they wanted to write a story about a specific character called Hawke. That's why you can't be anyone else and why Hawke is a pre-generated character.

Remove Hawke and DA2 falls appart. That's the "test" of a pre-gen character. DA does not fall appart if you change the lead character.

You haven't addressed my other posts about what constitutes character development. And the test of a pre-generated character isn't what you're saying, you will be able to build Hawke into what you want he/she to be. Just like you could build the Warden into what you wanted him/her to be despite the forcing of them into that role.

Modifié par Morroian, 24 février 2011 - 11:50 .

[stephen1493]

The 3 optional system I saw in the demo definitly wasn't what I hoped it would be.  If your fishing for approval/rivalry it's much harder than DA:O to attain the points through conversation, because you just don't know what's really coming out of your mouth.

I suppose that my main grief with it was with the auto responses based off my similar choices.  I was firm right off the bat that we needed to get away from the coming darkspawn, but that made me act incredibly beligerent towards my mother. I wanted to be firm, not a person who shot down any good ideas.  However, the main issue was when I would be a "paragon" in the earlier bits of the demo, but had my Hawke tell that guy giving Isabella grief that he was going to kill him. After, we did kill him, my Hawke "paragon" complained that he was trying to talk the guy down, but Isabella started the fight.  This makes no sense at all seeing as my Hawke was planning on killing him.

I'm all for  taking steps away from the core RPG experience, but I will definitly have to agree with Sylvius that this new system definitly has it's flaws in that I don't really have a good say or knowledge of my own position in a conversation.

Modifié par stephen1493, 24 février 2011 - 11:49 .

[upsettingshorts]

FieryDove wrote...

My PC in JE was mute and could show facial expressions/emotion.

Indeed, don't mind me though I was just framing subjective opinion as objective fact.

[David Gaider]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Voicing the protagonist ties us to the delivery the writers intended.  This is bad.

You've always been limited to the delivery we writers intended, as even in DAO the world reacted to that intention and not whatever you made up in your head. We select the possible responses and that's all you get.

And, yes, I know you like to imagine your own delivery, and resign any failure of the world to heed that as their misunderstanding, as if they are incapable of understanding communication. So, yes, we no longer allow you to play a character with Asperger's.

Are there drawbacks for that limitation? Sure, just as there are drawbacks for the unvoiced protaganist (see the Landsmeet, for instance, and the address of the soldiers at Denerim as two places in DAO where having a protaganist able to speak would have been a real plus on the design side). If having an unvoiced protaganist is the only way for you to believe you're roleplaying, then this isn't the game for you-- but that doesn't make it not a roleplaying game, or any worse of a design, as there are many people indeed who don't see that as a limitation on their ability to get into character.

And those are the limitations we've chosen to live with this time around. In this case, the benefits are worth the limitations we've given up. And that's all there is to say about it. If the demo didn't convince you that the writers can deliver, then that's all you really need to know, isn't it?

[Morroian]

Steks25 wrote...

Its ROLEPLAY cmon - we're talking about a frikkin Bioware rpg damnit...

Morroian wrote...

What, is the game controlling you to just pick 1 choice all the time.

Err no, but theres no thought involved, like I said, you already know what the outcome will be for each of the choices....Hell you dont even have to READ what your character is gonna say.

If you actually want to role play as you state above of course there's thought involved. I think how I want the character I've built in my head to respond to a particular situation. And from what the devs have said the outcome won't be obvious, diplomatic isn't good and aggressive isn't bad.

[Ryzaki]

Yeah...I don't think I'll be roleplaying much in DA2.  It has the ME effect, the voice and wheel (the paraphrases) place a wall between me and the protagonist. I'm watching Hawke not playing Hawke. Sure I can tell him/her to be nice or a jerk but s/he'll do it his/her way not the way I want him/her too. 

It's hard to get in the mind of my character when I don't even know what he/she will say. Just a generalized idea.It's harder still when he/she has inflections and emotions on his/her face that I didn't intend for him/her to feel.  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 24 février 2011 - 11:53 .

[cabbagesoup]

You have all got to be kidding me. How old are you all 12-20? And when did you start playing games and have you been playing button mashing fighting games all your life. You really think it is the same As DAO? It is clearly over simplified and aim for mindless ADD console gamers (the xbox360 and PS3 generation) and younger people who haven't played any of the older classic PC games with in depth  RPG elements and tactics like Never Winter Nights or Baldur's gate where you have to stop every now and then and think.  Games where you have to make decisions that have consequences which effect your characters outcome and who he becomes and how his story or fate turns out later in the game. That is role playing. In DA2s demo as one has already said here, they are just tones and
what is said is basically the same and so is the outcome throughout. Not to mention there is no conversations they are all just one liners and on with the cuts scenes and boring mindless, fast paced, action combat-which I didn't even have to pause once or think about what I was doing just hit attact over and over- I see why some are asking for an auto attact in the console versions, might as well.

This is a shame to see EA make Bioware take this direction.  They made some really good RPGs with good storys-from what I've seen in the demo I could care less about the characters or where the story is going in this one.

Oh, well its all about money. Though you aren't getting any of mine any more I'm affraid BioWare or should I say EA. (I've played just about all your games including all the expansions for neverwinter nights. Oh, I even like Mass Effect 2 the choices you made though stream lined really had an effect on the game.

Dragon Age origins was very good in my opinion very old school with plenty of complex quality role playing.  

By the way DA2 fans the number is growing for those who will not Pre-order and those who will cancel. Not to mention those who are keeping their pre-orders represent little more than 50% and in reality probably less. I know a number of people who love BioWare games who after playing the demo will skip this one.
I was pretty sure I was going to pre-order-I loved all of BioWares games up until now-now I  can say I won't.

Modifié par cabbagesoup, 24 février 2011 - 11:59 .

[JrayM16]

cabbagesoup wrote...

You have all got to be kidding me. How old are you all 12-20? And when did you start playing games and have you been playing button mashing fighting games on the console all you lives. You really think it is the same As DAO? It is clearly over simplified and aim for dumb console gamers (the xbox360 and PS3 generation) and younger people who haven't played any of the older classic PC games with in depth  RPG elements like Never Winter Nights or Baldur's gate where you have to stop every now and then and think.  Games where you have to make decisions that have consequences which effect your characters outcome and who he becomes and how his story or fate turns out later in the game. That is role playing. In DA2s demo as one has already said here they are just tones and
what is said is basically the same and so is the outcome throughout. Not to mention there is no conversations they are all just one liners and on with the cuts scenes and boring mindless, fast paced, action combat-which I didn't even have to pause once or think about what I was doing just hit attact over and over.

This is a shame to see EA make Bioware take this direction.  They made some really good RPGs with good storys-from what I've seen in the demo I could care less about the characters or where the story is going in this one.

Oh, well its all about money. Though you aren't getting any of mine any more I'm affraid BioWare. (I've played just about all your games including all the expansions for neverwinter nights. Oh, I even like Mass Effect 2 the choices you made though stream lined really had an effect on the game.

Dragon Age origins was very good in my opinion very old school with plenty of complex quality role playing.  

By the way DA2 fans the number is growing for those who will not Pre-order and those who will cancel. Not to mention those who are keeping their pre-orders represent little more than 50% and in reality probably less. I know a number of people who love BioWare games who after playing the demo will skip this one.
I was pretty sure I was going to pre-order-I loved all of BioWares games up until now-now I  can say I won't.

Elitist troll is elitist.

[falconlord5]

cabbagesoup wrote...

You have all got to be kidding me. How old are you all 12-20? And when did you start playing games and have you been playing button mashing fighting games on the console all you lives. You really think it is the same As DAO? It is clearly over simplified and aim for dumb console gamers (the xbox360 and PS3 generation) and younger people who haven't played any of the older classic PC games with in depth  RPG elements like Never Winter Nights or Baldur's gate where you have to stop every now and then and think.  Games where you have to make decisions that have consequences which effect your characters outcome and who he becomes and how his story or fate turns out later in the game. That is role playing. In DA2s demo as one has already said here they are just tones and
what is said is basically the same and so is the outcome throughout. Not to mention there is no conversations they are all just one liners and on with the cuts scenes and boring mindless, fast paced, action combat-which I didn't even have to pause once or think about what I was doing just hit attact over and over.

This is a shame to see EA make Bioware take this direction.  They made some really good RPGs with good storys-from what I've seen in the demo I could care less about the characters or where the story is going in this one.

Oh, well its all about money. Though you aren't getting any of mine any more I'm affraid BioWare. (I've played just about all your games including all the expansions for neverwinter nights. Oh, I even like Mass Effect 2 the choices you made though stream lined really had an effect on the game.

Dragon Age origins was very good in my opinion very old school with plenty of complex quality role playing.  

By the way DA2 fans the number is growing for those who will not Pre-order and those who will cancel. Not to mention those who are keeping their pre-orders represent little more than 50% and in reality probably less. I know a number of people who love BioWare games who after playing the demo will skip this one.
I was pretty sure I was going to pre-order-I loved all of BioWares games up until now-now I  can say I won't.

To which there is only one possible reply: Na na na, Hey hey, goodbye.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Leaving the protagonist unvoiced ties us to an emotionless mute shell of a person

Yes, that's exactly what I want.  I want to fill that shell myself.

who exists as little more than a mechanic for selecting which lines of dialogue the player wants the NPC to respond with.

This I don't get at all.  I never know what the NPCs are going to say in response to the PC in either game.

[upsettingshorts]

cabbagesoup wrote...

You have all got to be kidding me. How old are you all 12-20? And when did you start playing games and have you been playing button mashing fighting games on the console all you lives. You really think it is the same As DAO? It is clearly over simplified and aim for dumb console gamers (the xbox360 and PS3 generation) and younger people who haven't played any of the older classic PC games with in depth  RPG elements like Never Winter Nights or Baldur's gate where you have to stop every now and then and think.  Games where you have to make decisions that have consequences which effect your characters outcome and who he becomes and how his story or fate turns out later in the game. That is role playing

I've been playing Bioware RPGs since Baldur's Gate 1 and I view the options in that game and the options presented in DA2 as conceptually the same, accomplishing - for me - exactly the same goals.  And requiring the same amount of thought.  

Don't presume to speak for me.  Or anyone else.

[Collider]

The paraphrasing is what I'm most concerned with.

Often times, in Mass Effect, the label does not match what is said by the player character well enough.

I'd like an option to preview the dialog before selecting.

[Maconbar]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Steks25 wrote...

My point is in DA1 in the example I've given, you would have 10different responses to pick from, yes they do in the end boil down to 3-4 pre determined paths, but atleast you had the choice to pick a way to deliver those lines.

If you're going to just make up numbers, at least pick plausible ones. There weren't any DAO dialog nodes with ten choices.

You don't need to have ten dialogue options in DAO to have ten different possible responses.  This has been my point all along.

Voicing the protagonist ties us to the delivery the writers intended.  This is bad.

No. It is bad for you.

I don't mind being tied to the delivery.

[Pritos]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Steks25 wrote...

My point is in DA1 in the example I've given, you would have 10different responses to pick from, yes they do in the end boil down to 3-4 pre determined paths, but atleast you had the choice to pick a way to deliver those lines.

If you're going to just make up numbers, at least pick plausible ones. There weren't any DAO dialog nodes with ten choices.

You don't need to have ten dialogue options in DAO to have ten different possible responses.  This has been my point all along.

Voicing the protagonist ties us to the delivery the writers intended.  This is bad.

Not necessarily. Perhaps DAO had more possible responses if we take in consideration that the player could interpret them as he/she wished, thing that is hard/impossible with a VP. However, voicing the protagonist can deliver us a bigger quality, by actually showing the interaction between the protagonist and the NPC, and this makes us know that he is really there, that he have fellings and a conscience, differently than DAO, that in the end were just us imaginating the character.

[upsettingshorts]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Yes, that's exactly what I want.  I want to fill that shell myself.

I know.  And I'd understand that if the game responded to it or supported it in any perceivable way, but it doesn't.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

This I don't get at all.  I never know what the NPCs are going to say in response to the PC in either game.

It's not so much about knowing what they're going to say, but have your selection matter and be responded to.  When you have to imagine your character's intent or tone or delivery, the pre-written NPCs cannot respond to it.  But that's one of those arguments In Exile is better at having with you.  Though I haven't seen him 'round much lately. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 24 février 2011 - 11:57 .