992 réponses à ce sujet

[The Spirit of Dance]

i prefer the numbered choices in origins that have a long tree of different dialogue/decisions/information over the dialouge wheel that lets you see the outcomes right away and giving you the choice to investigate to get a little backstory. However im basing this on the demo; who knows i might grow to like it after playing the full game, either way this does not strike me as a big deal and will not greatly affect my opinion of the game.

[Ryzaki]

I can deal with it as long as there aren't any incidents like in ME2 where at the rivalary breaking points I can't convince someone to stay with me because I haven't been choosing every diplomatic/aggressive option.  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 25 février 2011 - 12:33 .

[Satyricon331]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Satyricon331 wrote...

Then why respond at all?

Why does Sylvius start threads or make posts voicing his opinions?  Don't you think he wants a response?  Or do you just think it's cathartic? I don't want to speak for him, I just don't understand why anyone would be upset with Gaider explaining his position and defending it.  What do you want from him, to apologize for taking part in making a decision your disapprove of?  I mean, honestly, what do you want the developers to say, short of explaining how you're right and they've totally changed their minds.

DG and Sylvius didn't really say anything to each other in this exchange they haven't said before.  Neither have I in my discussions with him in this thread either.  And I've only been around a few months, pretty sure those two have been at it for years.

What on earth?  If Sylvius is trolling these threads then just ignore him.  And I don't have a problem with DG explaining his position and defending it, I just found his tone offputting, and since Sylvius seems to be an irritant it just seems less than optimal to use this thread as his vehicle to defend himself.  That's it.  Good grief.

[upsettingshorts]

Satyricon331 wrote...

What on earth?  If Sylvius is trolling these threads then just ignore him.  And I don't have a problem with DG explaining his position and defending it, I just found his tone offputting, and since Sylvius seems to be an irritant it just seems less than optimal to use this thread as his vehicle to defend himself.  That's it.  Good grief.

Sylvius the Mad is not a troll.  He's just persistent, prolific, and his message is consistent.  DG is snarky, that's who he is.  I haven't seen a discussion between those two - at least that I can remember - that wasn't similar in that respect.  

..come to think of it, I also can't remember a time when someone didn't take an issue with DG's tone in responding to Sylvius.  So perhaps I should let it go.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 25 février 2011 - 12:36 .

[Vaeliorin]

wulfsturm wrote...

Galad22 wrote...
They make games they think PEOPLE want. Very different.

Judging by their track record so far, I think they generally know what people want.

They obviously make games people enjoy.  Whether they're the games people want is a different question.

For example, I have few doubts that I'll enjoy DA2 (not as an RPG, but as a choose your own adventure game with combat.)  But it's certainly not the game I want (the likelihood of anyone making the game I want at this point in time is infinitesimally small, however, and I've come to accept that.)

[upsettingshorts]

Vaeliorin wrote...

a choose your own adventure game with combat

Heh, that's how I've always approached BioWare cRPGs.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 25 février 2011 - 12:38 .

[Darkeus]

Siven80 wrote...

Threeparts wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

in all honesty, its not that different from what origins was like. its just not all listed out.

(nice continue option)
(snarky continue dialogue option)
(mean continue dialogue option)
(ask clarifying question dialogue option #1 i.e investigate)
(ask clarifying question dialogue option #2 i.e investigate)
(ask clarifying question dialogue option #3 i.e investigate)
(stab the dude dialogue option)

its just presented in a wheel this time.

Exactly this. the dialogue options are essentially the same system we had in DA:O, but because it's presented differently (A wheel? Instead of a list? MASS EFFECT!) and incorporates paraphrasing, people seem to be panicking.

If they'd kept the old list and used paraphrasing with a (dialogue type) next to it, I don't think it would cause this much fuss.
1. We should go. (curt)
2. Shall we press on, then? (pleasant)
3. Stop wasting my time with your prattle, Leliana. (aggressive)
4. That's enough. (stab her)

It's exactly the same, except the words are placed in two coloumns in the center of the screen and there are icons instead of text. And yet... so much fuss. Weird.

The gripes are the same with Hawke's story being "plotted out for you". Your Origins character had a set history with parents and siblings, or the tower, or your clan, and there was no way to finish the game but to kill the Archdemon and become the Hero of Ferelden. It was how you got from point A to point X that made the game fun.
We have the same set-up with Hawke - you start as a refugee with parents and siblings and you will become the Champion of Kirkwall - but, for some reason, it has people in a tizzy.

This

This, again.  Seems like people are not getting the point....

[wickedr]

I for one like the wheel.

Ryzaki wrote...

I can deal with it as long as there aren't any incidents like in ME2 where at the rivalary breaking points I can't convince someone to stay with me because I haven't been choosing every diplomatic/aggressive option.  

I think you'll be able to keep them either way, If you look at the skill trees when you have isabela you'll see the npcs have a special Friend and Rival skill, so it seems like there might be some benefits to pissing off the charicter as well as befrending them.

[Nilbog79]

crackseed wrote...

Personally I like it. I hope we see more options open up as time goes on based on interactions with party members, etc but DA:O gave a deceptive appearance of having "alot" to say when half of the options were just filler that didn't really add anything beyond some fluff to a convo. This is a bit of streamlining, but in a good way w/o sacrificing the RP.

To some people additional options were filler, to others a way to define the personality of the character they're roleplaying. That's my biggest problem with the wheel system, like some people were saying earlier it forces you into one of three preset personalities, none of which are interesting to me because they are by definition completely one-dimensional. Yes, the DAO responses were predefined as well but they could be combined in various ways to create interesting protagonists.
Slightly off-topic, but I think i prefer even the ME2 paragon/renegade system to the new three-way one. Now you have two completely humourless protagonists and a third one that has to make jokes all the time, even though some of them would make Austin Powers cringe. I find it funny for all the wrong reasons, but I can easily see that becoming annoying.

[upsettingshorts]

Well they could leave potentially but I don't think it's linked to passively tracked approval or alignment, but circumstance and choice.

Also why does it force people?  It's not Mass Effect.  I plan on selecting different paraphrase options all the time based on situation and character.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 25 février 2011 - 12:44 .

[stephen1493]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Well they could leave potentially but I don't think it's linked to passively tracked approval or alignment, but circumstance and choice.

*nods head*
like the urn and wynne...

[Vaeliorin]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Vaeliorin wrote...
a choose your own adventure game with combat

Heh, that's how I've always approached BioWare cRPGs.

I've only found it necessary with the ones with a voiced protagonist.  There are, admittedly, issues I've had with previous Bioware games (to the point that DA is the only Bioware game to crack my top ten favorite games) but I've never felt that they actively tried to prevent me from roleplaying (though they did often annoying prevent certain characters.  I still hate that BG didn't let me play a character who was actively trying to figure out who was trying to kill him) prior to the voiced protagonist.

[Xewaka]

Threeparts wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...
in all honesty, its not that different from what origins was like. its just not all listed out.
(nice continue option)
(snarky continue dialogue option)
(mean continue dialogue option)
(ask clarifying question dialogue option #1 i.e investigate)
(ask clarifying question dialogue option #2 i.e investigate)
(ask clarifying question dialogue option #3 i.e investigate)
(stab the dude dialogue option)
its just presented in a wheel this time.

Exactly this. the dialogue options are essentially the same system we had in DA:O, but because it's presented differently (A wheel? Instead of a list? MASS EFFECT!) and incorporates paraphrasing, people seem to be panicking.
If they'd kept the old list and used paraphrasing with a (dialogue type) next to it, I don't think it would cause this much fuss.
1. We should go. (curt)
2. Shall we press on, then? (pleasant)
3. Stop wasting my time with your prattle, Leliana. (aggressive)
4. That's enough. (stab her)
It's exactly the same, except the words are placed in two coloumns in the center of the screen and there are icons instead of text. And yet... so much fuss. Weird.

There is a rather important difference you're glossing over between paraphrase and full text. Paraphrases do NOT have the line that will be spoken. Full lines, by virtue of being full lines, do. I can know what my character will say with full line. I cannot with paraphrase.
And "knowing what my character will say" is not, by any means, shape or form, equal to, or even close to "sort of kinda guessing what the gist of what my character is about to say".

[upsettingshorts]

Vaeliorin wrote...

I've only found it necessary with the ones with a voiced protagonist.

It's not so much that I found it necessary.   For me it's optimal.  It's what I think cRPGs are capable of and meant to do.  Hence why I end up liking things like the voiced protagonist or paraphrase and the cinematic approach.

So maybe that explains why I get irritated when I read people posting - constantly - that all of those things are designed exclusively with a new audience, console kiddies, or idiots in mind.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Why does Sylvius start threads or make posts voicing his opinions?  Don't you think he wants a response?  Or do you just think it's cathartic?

Mostly I'm trying to change the minds of the general public.  BioWare's interest lies in targeting the median gamer, so if I can move the margins of public opinion I can move that target.

I've only been around a few months, pretty sure those two have been at it for years.

It's possible I've been around longer than he has.  I don't know his exact start date.

[Darkeus]

Xewaka wrote...

Threeparts wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...
in all honesty, its not that different from what origins was like. its just not all listed out.
(nice continue option)
(snarky continue dialogue option)
(mean continue dialogue option)
(ask clarifying question dialogue option #1 i.e investigate)
(ask clarifying question dialogue option #2 i.e investigate)
(ask clarifying question dialogue option #3 i.e investigate)
(stab the dude dialogue option)
its just presented in a wheel this time.

Exactly this. the dialogue options are essentially the same system we had in DA:O, but because it's presented differently (A wheel? Instead of a list? MASS EFFECT!) and incorporates paraphrasing, people seem to be panicking.
If they'd kept the old list and used paraphrasing with a (dialogue type) next to it, I don't think it would cause this much fuss.
1. We should go. (curt)
2. Shall we press on, then? (pleasant)
3. Stop wasting my time with your prattle, Leliana. (aggressive)
4. That's enough. (stab her)
It's exactly the same, except the words are placed in two coloumns in the center of the screen and there are icons instead of text. And yet... so much fuss. Weird.

There is a rather important difference you're glossing over between paraphrase and full text. Paraphrases do NOT have the line that will be spoken. Full lines, by virtue of being full lines, do. I can know what my character will say with full line. I cannot with paraphrase.
And "knowing what my character will say" is not, by any means, shape or form, equal to, or even close to "sort of kinda guessing what the gist of what my character is about to say".

When do you have to guess ?  The icons in the wheel tell you what your tone is going to be, something that full text could not do at times....   Full text without voice cannot always convey intent or tone. 

It works fine and it really is not that different.  Sorry....

[Ryzaki]

wickedr wrote...

I for one like the wheel.

Ryzaki wrote...

I can deal with it as long as there aren't any incidents like in ME2 where at the rivalary breaking points I can't convince someone to stay with me because I haven't been choosing every diplomatic/aggressive option.  

I think you'll be able to keep them either way, If you look at the skill trees when you have isabela you'll see the npcs have a special Friend and Rival skill, so it seems like there might be some benefits to pissing off the charicter as well as befrending them.

I know I'm just hoping Rivalary doesn't mean I'm always being super aggressive. 

[Darkeus]

Ah, but the general public may just not want to hear it.....

[Sylvius the Mad]

First of all, Vael, I love that signature.  That is brilliant.

Vaeliorin wrote...

I've only found it necessary with the ones with a voiced protagonist.

I don't appear able to play the game like that.  Again, I hope the intent icons will help, but overall I just don't think I'm going to find the choose-your-own-adventure style of gameplay sufficiently compelling to bother doing it.  

Luckily, there are loads of old games I haven't finished with to fill my time until the industry comes around and sees sense.

[upsettingshorts]

Ryzaki wrote...

I know I'm just hoping Rivalary doesn't mean I'm always being super aggressive. 

It shouldn't have anything to do with your personality at all, based on descriptions.  But on your character's position on key issues that are important to the character.  

If Phil likes cheese, and you like cheese:  Friendship, he helps you acquire cheese.
If Phil likes cheese, and you hate cheese:  Rivalry, he tries to prove the superiority of cheese.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Darkeus wrote...

When do you have to guess ?

All of the time.  The paraphrases don't contain enough information about the literal content of the associated line. 

Full text without voice cannot always convey intent or tone.

I would argue that the full text can never convey intent or tone, and that's a positive feature that I don't want to lose.

[stephen1493]

Darkeus wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

Threeparts wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...
in all honesty, its not that different from what origins was like. its just not all listed out.
(nice continue option)
(snarky continue dialogue option)
(mean continue dialogue option)
(ask clarifying question dialogue option #1 i.e investigate)
(ask clarifying question dialogue option #2 i.e investigate)
(ask clarifying question dialogue option #3 i.e investigate)
(stab the dude dialogue option)
its just presented in a wheel this time.

Exactly this. the dialogue options are essentially the same system we had in DA:O, but because it's presented differently (A wheel? Instead of a list? MASS EFFECT!) and incorporates paraphrasing, people seem to be panicking.
If they'd kept the old list and used paraphrasing with a (dialogue type) next to it, I don't think it would cause this much fuss.
1. We should go. (curt)
2. Shall we press on, then? (pleasant)
3. Stop wasting my time with your prattle, Leliana. (aggressive)
4. That's enough. (stab her)
It's exactly the same, except the words are placed in two coloumns in the center of the screen and there are icons instead of text. And yet... so much fuss. Weird.

There is a rather important difference you're glossing over between paraphrase and full text. Paraphrases do NOT have the line that will be spoken. Full lines, by virtue of being full lines, do. I can know what my character will say with full line. I cannot with paraphrase.
And "knowing what my character will say" is not, by any means, shape or form, equal to, or even close to "sort of kinda guessing what the gist of what my character is about to say".

When do you have to guess ?  The icons in the wheel tell you what your tone is going to be, something that full text could not do at times....   Full text without voice cannot always convey intent or tone. 

It works fine and it really is not that different.  Sorry....

But it doesn't work fine when your autoreaction contradicts what you've just done or said. Like if we were a "paragon" before you met Hader, but you chose the "renegade" option right before you fight him.

You end up telling him your going to kill him (Your threats end here), but afterwards you complain to Isabella (I was trying to talk him down.)

Modifié par stephen1493, 25 février 2011 - 12:56 .

[Xewaka]

Darkeus wrote...
When do you have to guess ?  The icons in the wheel tell you what your tone is going to be, something that full text could not do at times....   Full text without voice cannot always convey intent or tone. 
It works fine and it really is not that different.  Sorry....

I have to guess whenever I don't know what my character will say. Which is a 100% of the time I face the wheel. Granted, there will be times when guessing what my character will say is rather obvious (investigation dialogues, when the paraphrase is the question topic, there can't be that much surprises in the question delivery). But when faced with a phrase like "He's not alone (charming)", "At least father will keep company now" is not the first guess that comes to mind.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

If Phil likes cheese, and you like cheese:  Friendship, he helps you acquire cheese.
If Phil likes cheese, and you hate cheese:  Rivalry, he tries to prove the superiority of cheese.

I'm a bit concerned about the need to maximise one of those two scales.  Mike mentioned it in a recent video.

If my character design doesn't consistently agree or disagree with a given companion, then the game will see what I'm doing as waffling, when in fact I'm adhering to a strict position measured on a different scale.

[stephen1493]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Darkeus wrote...

When do you have to guess ?

All of the time.  The paraphrases don't contain enough information about the literal content of the associated line. 

Full text without voice cannot always convey intent or tone.

I would argue that the full text can never convey intent or tone, and that's a positive feature that I don't want to lose.

A good example was right after your sibling died. The renegade paraphrase was something along the lines of "we don't have time for this", but the actual saying was Hawke telling his mother that she's threatening all of their lives by freaking out.