992 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I don't see how that can even work.  If you don't already have the complete character in your head at the start, how do you make your first dialogue choice?  On what do you base the decision? 

Example Rogue Cousland:  Bored, self-indulgent, overprivileged sarcastic guy.  Pretty vague, but something of an archetype. 

Papa: "Hey son."
Rogue Cousland: "...and you needed me why?"

That was, more or less my first character.  From what I can recall, anyway.  He was kind of a jerk.   So he picked a lot of jerky responses, except when it was more fun to do something else.  He also didn't think too far ahead.  Some of those elements were added to the character through options the game presented.  I don't think allowing the game options to help define a vague character is a bad thing, but that's what I've always done.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

And if you haven't mapped it all out in advance, how do you maintain consistency?

I find it easier, because the game is actively supplying me with options that attempt in some way to be internally consistent.  If I'm playing a very specific and complicated character, half the options will be inconsistent with that design.  So I feel like doing that is actively working against the system, as opposed to working with it.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

A lot of people do.

But think about it.  If questions can convey information, then they can convey false information.  That means you should be able to lie to me using only a question.

I invite you to try.

They reveal what your character is interested in knowing.  Or interested in asking.  This allows others to ponder their motives.

Likewise tone and inflection are in of themselves information.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 25 février 2011 - 01:29 .

[Blastback]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

soteria wrote...

I dispute that questions don't convey information.

A lot of people do.

But think about it.  If questions can convey information, then they can convey false information.  That means you should be able to lie to me using only a question.

I invite you to try.

If I were to ask you a question about how does x mechanic work, that indicates that I posses a lack of knowledge about said mechanic x. 

[Xewaka]

Blastback wrote...
If I were to ask you a question about how does x mechanic work, that indicates that I posses a lack of knowledge about said mechanic x. 

Or maybe you have certain information on how mechanic x works and you're corroborating it from other sources.

[Blastback]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

That is one of the better examples on why not knowing the full content of the line is a hindrance in the dialogue choices.

And this happens to me all the time because I see conversation as adversarial.

Mind explaining this a bit?

[Catalyst38]

What people really need to ask before they complain about anything on the forums is...Will this thing i'm about to cry about stop me from buying the game right at midnight? if no then shove your complaint and shhhhh your mouth we dont need to hear it.

If yes then your not buying the game so your opinion on it no longer matters. So shove it

by the way that you be the bottom option of dialog i'v chosen you know the one with the big red hammer.

Modifié par Catalyst38, 25 février 2011 - 01:34 .

[The Gentle Ben]

My issues with the paraphrase system (which for clarity, does not mean I oppose it) are always ones of implementation rather than concept (except insofar as the concept is in my opinion inherently more vulnerable to failures of execution).

I think the points Sylvius and Xewaka make are valid ones, if a little beyond my own position. I only become annoyed with the paraphrase system itself when the PC says something fundamentally different from my intention. I had hoped the intent icons would mitigate these occurrence, and perhaps they still will, but the unfortunate fact that I encountered such situations already within the demo has dispirited me.

I'll confess (even if it makes me stupid), I clicked on the "He won't be alone" line after Carver's death (not recognizing/understanding the icon: It looked like a . . . diamond (maybe)? So that might be part of it) and received a completely different line of dialogue than I intended/expected. I mean, I even knew about the dead dad, but the context for me was: "Hell no, he won't be alone! We just slaughtered a sea of darkspawn, and now we're going to kill more of those bastards!"

Another related issue that I've also encountered with Mass Effect, is that forceful and jackass seem to share a dialogue slot/Icon. I draw a pretty clear distinction between the two. I sometimes want to be forceful, I pretty much never want to be an insensitive jackass, yet I sometimes find it very hard (if not impossible) to anticipate within the paraphrase system (as has been implemented), which one I'm going to get.

I don't know if I would use the view full-text option if it had been provided, but incidents like this make me wish I had the choice.

Modifié par The Gentle Ben, 25 février 2011 - 02:44 .

[Blastback]

Catalyst38 wrote...

What people really need to ask before they complain about anything on the forums is...Will this thing i'm about to cry about stop me from buying the game right at midnight? if no then shove your complaint and shhhhh your mouth we dont need to hear it.

If yes then your not buying the game so your opinion on it no longer matters. So shove it

by the way that you be the bottom option of dialog i choice you know the one with the big red hammer.

Uh, Bioware wants feedback.  That includes the negative.  If they didn't these forums would be kinda pointless.

[FieryDove]

Catalyst38 wrote...

What people really need to ask before they complain about anything on the forums is...Will this thing i'm about to cry about stop me from buying the game right at midnight? if no then shove your complaint and shhhhh your mouth we dont need to hear it.

If yes then your not buying the game so your opinion on it no longer matters. So shove it

by the way that you be the bottom option of dialog i'v chosen you know the one with the big red hammer.

If you were selling/making the product I can say without a doubt your business would fold.

[Catalyst38]

Blastback wrote...

Catalyst38 wrote...

What people really need to ask before they complain about anything on the forums is...Will this thing i'm about to cry about stop me from buying the game right at midnight? if no then shove your complaint and shhhhh your mouth we dont need to hear it.

If yes then your not buying the game so your opinion on it no longer matters. So shove it

by the way that you be the bottom option of dialog i choice you know the one with the big red hammer.

Uh, Bioware wants feedback.  That includes the negative.  If they didn't these forums would be kinda pointless.

i get that but its hard to hear people cry about dialog option when its no a issue the wheel if fine i never once choice a option in ME 1 or 2 and was like WTF thats not what i ment. The Origins 7 choice dialoge and 3 are the same thing and 2 are just loops was anoying and stupid i'm glade that did away with it.

every where i look people are crying about the dialog wheel and o no i need to press A to attack heaven forbid.

[mesmerizedish]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

soteria wrote...

I dispute that questions don't convey information.

A lot of people do.

But think about it.  If questions can convey information, then they can convey false information.  That means you should be able to lie to me using only a question.

I invite you to try.

Okay, if I ask you "How did Loghain betray King Cailan?" then I'm conveying that Loghain betrayed King Cailan. Hypothetically, Loghain could have not betrayed Cailan, in which case I've just lied to you with a question. The lie doesn't have to be believed, or even believable. If I ask you "How did Cailan betray Loghain," I have conveyed false information to you via that question.

[Catalyst38]

More on what i ment bye it not being a issue bioware has already said they like this dialog system better then the last so complaining about it now its going to do anything.

[Blastback]

Catalyst38 wrote...

Blastback wrote...

Catalyst38 wrote...

What people really need to ask before they complain about anything on the forums is...Will this thing i'm about to cry about stop me from buying the game right at midnight? if no then shove your complaint and shhhhh your mouth we dont need to hear it.

If yes then your not buying the game so your opinion on it no longer matters. So shove it

by the way that you be the bottom option of dialog i choice you know the one with the big red hammer.

Uh, Bioware wants feedback.  That includes the negative.  If they didn't these forums would be kinda pointless.

i get that but its hard to hear people cry about dialog option when its no a issue the wheel if fine i never once choice a option in ME 1 or 2 and was like WTF thats not what i ment. The Origins 7 choice dialoge and 3 are the same thing and 2 are just loops was anoying and stupid i'm glade that did away with it.

every where i look people are crying about the dialog wheel and o no i need to press A to attack heaven forbid.

And other people are unhappy with various changes.  And they have the right to say so here.  Just like you can defend those changes.  If Bioware has a problem with something that someone says, they can deal with it.  Their big kids.  With banhammers. 

Catalyst38 wrote...

More on what i ment bye it not being a issue bioware has already said they like this dialog system better then the last so complaining about it now its going to do anything.

Actually, it can acomplish something.  While I doubt Bioware is going to go back to the old system, it can give them ideas about how to better modify the system in the future.

Modifié par Blastback, 25 février 2011 - 01:45 .

[Xewaka]

Catalyst38 wrote...
More on what i ment bye it not being a issue bioware has already said they like this dialog system better then the last so complaining about it now its going to do anything.

For DA2? No. For future games? The possibility exists. So I'll take my chances.

[Catalyst38]

Xewaka wrote...

Catalyst38 wrote...
More on what i ment bye it not being a issue bioware has already said they like this dialog system better then the last so complaining about it now its going to do anything.

For DA2? No. For future games? The possibility exists. So I'll take my chances.

i think your wasting your time the number of buys and perfect scores will come rolling in like for ME and although DA:O was  a awesome game and i loved it. Reviews Game list and awards of all kinda DA:O always falls fall short of ME 2. The big issues where Combat every single review i read or forum i saw people complained about how slow it was. Also the dialog was broke the motion of the game fairly bad + most people didnt really like the wall of choices that a lot of the time where meanlings to have all you need was Kind Mean and Did he really just kill that guy.

[JrayM16]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

soteria wrote...

I dispute that questions don't convey information.

A lot of people do.

But think about it.  If questions can convey information, then they can convey false information.  That means you should be able to lie to me using only a question.

I invite you to try.

http://www.logicalfa...mplex-question/

[JamesX]

Catalyst38 wrote...

If yes then your not buying the game so your opinion on it no longer matters. So shove it

Actually the reason why people are not buying your product is just as important, if not more so, than why people are buying your product.

Because that where the future market is.

[Sparda Stonerule]

Well there were only 2 choices to every major situation in Dragon Age Origins. All the text choices in DA:O were basically neat covers for getting on result or another. The game doesn't register exactly what you said, nor does it measure your inflection. It simply notes what choice you picked and then returns a pre determined line from the other character.

In my flawed opinion DA 2 is just giving you the same 2 choices for most situations and a more neutral and sarcastic path. So yes I do like it, because I don't feel like the game is lying to me about my speech options anymore. In DA:O I had no idea what would and would not end a conversation. I like gleaning every ounce of information I can before ending a conversation. Sometimes I would ask a question in DA:O thinking it would continue the scene but it instead offended the person and ended it early.

I just prefer it more the way it is in DA 2. I know a lot of people like immersion, however a long list of every option that accomplishes the exact same things as the dialog wheel does not make me more immersed in my mute character.

[Alet]

stephen1493 wrote...

A good example was right after your sibling died. The renegade paraphrase was something along the lines of "we don't have time for this", but the actual saying was Hawke telling his mother that she's threatening all of their lives by freaking out.

Which she was, if you consider that darkspawn attacked very quickly after, an attack you might have been able to avoid had you not spent several minutes mourning.  It seemed to me that with that response, Hawke's facial expression was more obviously sad than in response to any other, which I found intruiging.

Also, I know it's common in these forums to run with the "exactly like ME" paranoia and throw around paragon/renegade as if those terms have any meaning in DA2, but the red gavel responses could hardly be considered renegade . . . it seemed to me to be the most morally just, wraped in a stern and unyeilding package not unlike oldschool paladins.  Not, you know, kind or considerate, but hardly the violence, impatience, or problems with authority that characterized the ME Renegade.

... Came across tetchier than I intended, mea culpa.

[Catalyst38]

JamesX wrote...

Catalyst38 wrote...

If yes then your not buying the game so your opinion on it no longer matters. So shove it

Actually the reason why people are not buying your product is just as important, if not more so, than why people are buying your product.

Because that where the future market is.

You people are taking my first post way to seriously i wrote it to be aggressive i even made a crack on the dialog wheel at the end.

[TEWR]

Seriously people....

In Origins you could be a douche to people, or sympathetic, or even sarcastic. Example: Oghren asks to tag along.  your options:

1)Cross me and you're dead.
2) What makes you think you can trust me?
3) Don't I have enough armed lunatics following me around?

Honestly, this is all the same as what Origins did, just a lot easier to understand. I don't know why people are saying "Hawke's not saying anything I wanted him to say. I've been misled!!"

no you haven't. When your siblings are playing the blame game, and you say "speaking of running...." what comes out of Hawke's mouth is a definite sarcastic joking response, as is the angry fed up response.

Now, maybe the Mass Effect games were that way, where one response was entirely different. But don't start throwing around baseless similarites because you're too oblivious to actually oh idk.... THINK about what has been said.

Hawke consoles his mother on sibling's death:

you pick "He won't be alone". Hawke says, "At least Father will have company now." which is entirely accurate on what the wheel presented considering Hawke's father died (yes DIED as in DEAD, meaning he and your sibling are no longer among the living), three years prior to the game's start.

[soteria]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

soteria wrote...

I dispute that questions don't convey information.

A lot of people do.

But think about it.  If questions can convey information, then they can convey false information.  That means you should be able to lie to me using only a question.

I invite you to try.

Are you implying it doesn't work?  How about this:  "Have you cleaned up the mess upstairs?"  More subtlely, questions can imply untruths about the asker, like "Do you know where I could buy a lawnmower?"  Deceit in the form of a question looks different from deceit in the form of a statement, but that should be obvious.

[Nilbog79]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

Well there were only 2 choices to every major situation in Dragon Age Origins. All the text choices in DA:O were basically neat covers for getting on result or another. The game doesn't register exactly what you said, nor does it measure your inflection. It simply notes what choice you picked and then returns a pre determined line from the other character.
In my flawed opinion DA 2 is just giving you the same 2 choices for most situations and a more neutral and sarcastic path. So yes I do like it, because I don't feel like the game is lying to me about my speech options anymore. In DA:O I had no idea what would and would not end a conversation. I like gleaning every ounce of information I can before ending a conversation. Sometimes I would ask a question in DA:O thinking it would continue the scene but it instead offended the person and ended it early.
I just prefer it more the way it is in DA 2. I know a lot of people like immersion, however a long list of every option that accomplishes the exact same things as the dialog wheel does not make me more immersed in my mute character.

Sometimes it's important not just where you get to, but how you get there. For example, how would you like a system where you could skip dialogue entirely? You could click on Aveline and get two options, '+20 friend points' and '+20 rival points'. You could then choose one of the options and immediately get the desired result. I know this is an extreme example, but still, how much can you streamline before this stops being an rpg?

[Sengoku no Maou]

I dislike the changes, but I don't have too big of a problem with Dragon Effect 2.

[medievalmiss]

JrayM16 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

soteria wrote...

I dispute that questions don't convey information.

A lot of people do.

But think about it.  If questions can convey information, then they can convey false information.  That means you should be able to lie to me using only a question.

I invite you to try.

http://www.logicalfa...mplex-question/

This question of "Have you stopped beating your wife?" is exactly the example my dad used to use and that I was trying to remember. Thanks for finding this!

[Morroian]

Nilbog79 wrote...

From what I've heard, you will be able to select some, say, aggressive dialogue options only if you were always choosing aggressive dialogue options before, which to me sounds exactly like ME paragon/renegade checks.
That's another thing that is kind of surprising, not only does the game allow you to always mindlessly click the top or bottom option, but it actually rewards you for it, like you accomplished something impressive.

Its not rewarding you, you don't get a cookie or anything. Its simply character development. If you don't want to build a character who's aggressive then don't choose the aggressive options all the time.