992 réponses à ce sujet

[The Gentle Ben]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Honestly, this is all the same as what Origins did

I agree with this.

just a lot easier to understand.

I disagree with this. Not that it isn't potentially better, but full lines as opposed to paraphrases are practically by definition easier to understand.

Hawke consoles his mother on sibling's death:
you pick "He won't be alone". Hawke says, "At least Father will have company now." which is entirely accurate on what the wheel presented

I agree. My point wasn't that the game offered an erroneous outcome, but rather that I felt that my interpretation of the paraphrase was also reasonable and that the outcome of my selection was incongruent with my intent without there being a method for me to calibrate the choices with my intentions (which were vengeful) other than being more insightful/intuitive, which I shall try to work on.

Modifié par The Gentle Ben, 25 février 2011 - 02:40 .

[Berkilak]

Firstly, there is no such thing as alignment in DA, so stop trying to pigeonhole the system as such.



Secondly, I honestly don't see any less variety than was present in DA:O. It's merely more vague, and I dislike that. Then again, I've picked options in Origins than I read in a different tone than the Warden evidently spoke it in, since those statements were taken the wrong way from my perspective. The tone indicator should alleviate that.

[Nilbog79]

Morroian wrote...

Nilbog79 wrote...

From what I've heard, you will be able to select some, say, aggressive dialogue options only if you were always choosing aggressive dialogue options before, which to me sounds exactly like ME paragon/renegade checks.
That's another thing that is kind of surprising, not only does the game allow you to always mindlessly click the top or bottom option, but it actually rewards you for it, like you accomplished something impressive.

Its not rewarding you, you don't get a cookie or anything. Its simply character development. If you don't want to build a character who's aggressive then don't choose the aggressive options all the time.

Perhaps I didn't express myself clearly enough, what I meant was there will be some dialogue options that can only be chosen if you have chosen a certain number of aggressive responses before (like the number of Paragon/Renegade points in ME) Now in ME failing paragon/renegade checks carried negative gameplay consequences, like losing party members, for example. So you do get a cookie for being full paragon/renegade. You can still of course ignore the consequences and build the character the way you want but with only three possible paths available the number of options you get is I feel too limited.

[Davasar]

Maelora wrote...

The game is meant for players who want a lot of combat and simplified RP elements. It was done deliberately.

This.

[The Gentle Ben]

Nilbog79 wrote...
Perhaps I didn't express myself clearly enough, what I meant was there will be some dialogue options that can only be chosen if you have chosen a certain number of aggressive responses before (like the number of Paragon/Renegade points in ME)

You are misunderstanding the system. Bonus dialogue options are based on dominant tone (I.e. the tone you have selected most frequently (not universally accurate but close enough)) and occur for all possible tones (albeit in potentially different conversations). Dialogue options are not based off tone "points" except insofar as those points determine your dominant tone.

Modifié par The Gentle Ben, 25 février 2011 - 02:53 .

[kaiki01]

I like it. I remember in Origins I confused "Would you like to know more?" dialog options with "Move the story forward!" options. The new systems creates a consistent presentation of options that helps eliminate some ambiguity of tone from the dialog options. I am thinking of Awakenings where some dialog options were written to seem like the Warden was being sarcastic, but NPCs took him to be serious. Though I hope we get a guide as to what the differences between Diamond, Head-profile and Olive branch are.

-edited for grammar-

Modifié par kaiki01, 25 février 2011 - 02:57 .

[TEWR]

The Gentle Ben wrote...

.

just a lot easier to understand.

I disagree with this. Not that it isn't potentially better, but full lines as opposed to paraphrases are practically by definition easier to understand.

Hawke consoles his mother on sibling's death:
you pick "He won't be alone". Hawke says, "At least Father will have company now." which is entirely accurate on what the wheel presented

I agree. My point wasn't that the game offered an erroneous outcome, but rather that I felt that my interpretation of the paraphrase was also reasonable and that the outcome of my selection was incongruent with my intent without there being a method for me to calibrate the choices with my intentions (which were vengeful) other than being more insightful/intuitive, which I shall try to work on.

well, it's easier for me to understand. Sometimes in Origins, because my protagonist was silent, I wasn't sure of how he might say something. Would it be sarcastic, or was he dead serious? Sometimes conversations would get screwed up because of that. Here, I can see what Hawke's general idea of what he's going to say is going to be, remember things about the characters that I've found out, if I have the info, and infer an idea of what he's going to say. Case in point being the sibling consoling I pointed out. I figured he would either say something about his father, or the Maker, the former being the more likely.

As such, this version allows me to not have to worry as much, while giving me the bonus of guessing what he will say along the lines of his intent. Which I approve of.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 février 2011 - 03:00 .

[Nilbog79]

The Gentle Ben wrote...

Nilbog79 wrote...
Perhaps I didn't express myself clearly enough, what I meant was there will be some dialogue options that can only be chosen if you have chosen a certain number of aggressive responses before (like the number of Paragon/Renegade points in ME)

You are misunderstanding the system. Bonus dialogue options are based on dominant tone (I.e. the tone you have selected most frequently (not universally accurate but close enough)) and occur for all possible tones (albeit in potentially different conversations). Dialogue options are not based off tone "points" except insofar as those points determine your dominant tone.

I'm not sure I understand, are you saying that if the game thinks I have a diplomatic character I will be getting a 'bonus' diplomatic response every now and again? Could you perhaps give an example?
If that's how it works, it's much better than how it was in ME, still it's a small part of all the shortfalls of the wheel system.

[upsettingshorts]

I think it works like this: If you've been mostly sarcastic, your BONUS DIALOGUE OPTION will be sarcastic. If you've been mostly diplomatic, your BONUS DIALOGUE OPTION will be diplomatic.

But regardless you will have a BONUS DIALOGUE OPTION of some kind.

I'm not 100% sure but that's what I'm expecting.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 25 février 2011 - 03:06 .

[TEWR]

actually, if you pick sarcastic responses throughout the game, there will be scenes where Hawke will give a sarcastic joking response. You're developing his character as the game progresses. The more of one option you pick, the more he's going to become that type of person. It's not bonus dialogue. It's all set, but based on your actions one of many dialogue choices will be heard based on what you've chosen. Even if you kept them even, there would still be something to match the even ratio. It's just trying to match the character you're making.

does that help you understand it?

edit: I don't consider it bonus dialogue anyway. you might and that's perfectly fine.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 février 2011 - 03:08 .

[Vicious]

Mass Effect only had 2 paths.

[The Gentle Ben]

Yeah, you've got it pretty much exactly. So basically a dominant tone is assigned to your character based upon your dialogue selections. So if you've chosen more diplomatic responses overall, you might see the following.

1. How much for the cake?
2. The cake is a lie, let me dispose of it.
3. Give me that cake or I break your face.
Bonus Diplomatic Option: That cake smells delicious, may I have a taste?

Similar bonus options for aggressive and sarcastic will appear when deemed situationally relevant, but the main objective is to determine what kind of personality your character has based on the player feedback of dialogue choices and to occasionally reflect that within the gameplay. I'm a fan.

Modifié par The Gentle Ben, 25 février 2011 - 03:11 .

[ZaroktheImmortal]

See my problem is I'm not picking what I saw but just the emotion of how I say it. The only time there's more than 3 options is usually just for things like 'investigate' to ask further questions which isn't really giving a response. Mostly we're limited to how we say it not what we say.

[Nilbog79]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I think it works like this: If you've been mostly sarcastic, your BONUS DIALOGUE OPTION will be sarcastic. If you've been mostly diplomatic, your BONUS DIALOGUE OPTION will be diplomatic.

But regardless you will have a BONUS DIALOGUE OPTION of some kind.

I'm not 100% sure but that's what I'm expecting.

Ah, thanks, that's how I understood what he was saying.

[The Gentle Ben]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
well, it's easier for me to understand. Sometimes in Origins, because my protagonist was silent, I wasn't sure of how he might say something. Would it be sarcastic, or was he dead serious? Sometimes conversations would get screwed up because of that. Here, I can see what Hawke's general idea of what he's going to say is going to be.

All fair points. I think the intent icons are a great addition, my issue was with the ambiguity of the paraphrase and the lack of clarity the corresponding icon provided. To be fair you could probably boil my arguments, at least in this specific case, down to the fact that I didn't understand the intent icon for the "He won't be alone" option, and that I think the aggressive icon is not always specific enough.

Modifié par The Gentle Ben, 25 février 2011 - 03:20 .

[upsettingshorts]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

edit: I don't consider it bonus dialogue anyway. you might and that's perfectly fine.

We're talking about different things.  

[TEWR]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

edit: I don't consider it bonus dialogue anyway. you might and that's perfectly fine.

We're talking about different things.  

you are? now everything I've said is just a rant that has no bearing. darn....

[upsettingshorts]

Well, I'm talking about the (in a vague sense) coercion or Paragon/Renegade "unlock" replacement in DA2. In that the option will be there, but the specific nature of the option will change based on your character's habits.

I think you're talking about how action lines, like "go south" in the demo are delivered differently based on your character's habits.

[TEWR]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Well, I'm talking about the (in a vague sense) coercion or Paragon/Renegade "unlock" replacement in DA2. In that the option will be there, but the specific nature of the option will change based on your character's habits.
I think you're talking about how action lines, like "go south" in the demo are delivered differently based on your character's habits.

oh yea then we are talking about different things. To quote one of my favorite Kingdom Hearts characters, Xigbar: oopsie daisy.

[Raanz]

Me no like ta read...me like pictures and purty wheel.

[Cordoroy17]

I can't believe people prefer the mute hero ?



or want to read a few sentences then have it voiced right after....



this is is a far more enjoyable cinematic experience.



DAO was often a pain because after every plot advancement you had to spend an hour in camp getting lectured,



wynne

give me the circle lecture

give me the apostate lecture

give me the little elf kid lecture



leliana

give me the princess story

give me the shoe story

give me a bard story



at least in ME it felt like a conversation you were a part of over a lecture

[FieryDove]

The Gentle Ben wrote...

You are misunderstanding the system. Bonus dialogue options are based on dominant tone (I.e. the tone you have selected most frequently (not universally accurate but close enough)) and occur for all possible tones (albeit in potentially different conversations). Dialogue options are not based off tone "points" except insofar as those points determine your dominant tone.

This makes me sad since I will probably all over the spectrum and won't have a set tone. No brownies for me!

[Nomen Mendax]

Cordoroy17 wrote...

I can't believe people prefer the mute hero ?

or want to read a few sentences then have it voiced right after....

this is is a far more enjoyable cinematic experience.

Well, some people do prefer a mute hero and some people are not looking for a cinematic experience.  My feeling from ME and ME2 is the more "cinematic" they make it the less input I have into my character.  Again, referring particularly to ME2, I don't want to pick one of a few cool ideas that the designers had for the character of Shepard.  In other words I want the designers to spend more time providing me with interesting options and less time creating a cinematic masterpiece.  Of course YMMV.

Where this tradeoff will end up in DA2 is at this point anybody's guess (well anybody not working for Bioware) so while I came away from the demo with a generally negative impression (sorry guys) I'm still hopeful.

[The Gentle Ben]

FieryDove wrote...

The Gentle Ben wrote...
You are misunderstanding the system. Bonus dialogue options are based on dominant tone (I.e. the tone you have selected most frequently (not universally accurate but close enough)) and occur for all possible tones (albeit in potentially different conversations). Dialogue options are not based off tone "points" except insofar as those points determine your dominant tone.

This makes me sad since I will probably all over the spectrum and won't have a set tone. No brownies for me!

You may not have a set tone, but you will have a dominant tone (as everyone does). Also, I believe there is a multiplier effect to the calculation for acquiring a new/different tone that is applied each time a tone switch occurs in order to prevent hovering between two dominant tones (which in turn is to prevent a schizophrenic feel to action dialogue). So brownies are still on the menu, there may just be several varieties.

Modifié par The Gentle Ben, 25 février 2011 - 04:38 .

[Merced652]

Come on David, don't treat us like we're dumb. "Limitations you've chosen this time around?" Really? Can you kick my dog too?