992 réponses à ce sujet

[Bryy_Miller]

Merced652 wrote...

Come on David, don't treat us like we're dumb. "Limitations you've chosen this time around?" Really? Can you kick my dog too?

I would like you to think about that. You just equated being disappointed in a video game to a guy kicking your dog.

[White_Buffalo94]

I like it, and I don't see the options as good or bad. The options like the red fist just shows you using force in your voice. The drama mask shows comedic or sarcastic relief. Their are others, but I don't feel like listing them

[Buffy-Summers]

It was bad in ME

Now it has robbed DAO of its high brow RPG feel making it into yet another action RPG with RPG lite features to try to passify the few hardcore RPG fans left

If you really want to go in this direction

Just go all the way

Take out the conversations and just put in more slam pow action

[FieryDove]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

Come on David, don't treat us like we're dumb. "Limitations you've chosen this time around?" Really? Can you kick my dog too?

I would like you to think about that. You just equated being disappointed in a video game to a guy kicking your dog.

No kicking puppies please!

The Gentle Ben wrote...

You may not have a set tone, but you will have a dominant tone (as everyone does). Also, I believe there is a multiplier effect to the calculation for acquiring a new/different tone that is applied each time a tone switch occurs in order to prevent hovering between two dominant tones (which in turn is to prevent a schizophrenic feel to action dialogue). So brownies are still on the menu, there may just be several varieties.

How will I get that? If I choose two "diplo", two snarky and two agressive there is no above average *score*. Will it be the last tone I picked?

Modifié par FieryDove, 25 février 2011 - 05:05 .

[Cyric133]

To answer OP, worse and "lazy"



More options are required for an authentic rp experience, imo.

[The Gentle Ben]

I don't believe it is possible to determine the answer on the information you've provided, but if you picked your two diplomatic responses first, then you would be diplomatic. You have to (at a minimum) surpass your current tone to change it.

Edit: It might actually be whichever dialogue option you chose first overall. I believe the calculation to change tones is 2x+1, with x = number of times the dominant tone has been selected.

Modifié par The Gentle Ben, 25 février 2011 - 05:22 .

[upsettingshorts]

Merced652 wrote...

Come on David, don't treat us like we're dumb. "Limitations you've chosen this time around?" Really? Can you kick my dog too?

It's opposed to limitations they chose last time.

[Maria Caliban]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

Come on David, don't treat us like we're dumb. "Limitations you've chosen this time around?" Really? Can you kick my dog too?

I would like you to think about that. You just equated being disappointed in a video game to a guy kicking your dog.

He doesn't actually like his dog.

[greatgoodness]

I like it the way it is now set up, and the choices seem easy to understand with the icons and tone of the statements you chose.



The investigate option adds the necessary depth to the wheel so that you can get into the story more. It isn't overwhelming, and it isn't too little.

[Sabresandiego]

I prefer the DA2 system to DA1. Why are people so resistant to change?

[FieryDove]

The Gentle Ben wrote...

I don't believe it is possible to determine the answer on the information you've provided, but if you picked your two diplomatic responses first, then you would be diplomatic. You have to (at a minimum) surpass your current tone to change it.

I think I understand, thank you.

[Pauravi]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Personally I hate it. In DA I would read through my choices and pick the one that suited my character best. Now much like ME we get the good/evil and middle path. Not only that, but we get little icons to make it even easier...

Buffy-Summers wrote...

It was bad in ME

Now it has robbed DAO of its high brow RPG feel making it into yet another action RPG with RPG lite features to try to passify the few hardcore RPG fans left

Don't be ridiculous.  It is not significantly different than DAO, the biggest difference is the paraphrasing, which they made up for by giving you the "mood" of the response.

Even in DAO, almost every single dialogue choice was either being nice, being callous/mean/selfish, possibly another, somewhat more ambiguous choice, or a question, and it was usually obvious which was which.  It is absolutely no different here.  I can't ever recall being given more than maybe 6 or so dialogue options, and in that case most of them were questions.  It is the same thing in DA2.

I think you all have your panties in a bunch over nothing.

Modifié par Pauravi, 25 février 2011 - 05:24 .

[Brako Von Shepard]

I really like the new conversation system in DA2. Even ME's system is flawed, as it shows a quick glance at how you will express yourself, but then the speech turns out different.



DA2 seems to be straight forward in how you will choose what manner you will use next.

[AlanC9]

Buffy-Summers wrote...

It was bad in ME

Now it has robbed DAO of its high brow RPG feel making it into yet another action RPG with RPG lite features to try to passify the few hardcore RPG fans left

If you really want to go in this direction

Just go all the way

Take out the conversations and just put in more slam pow action

You really think the people who like the conversation system in DA2 would like it even better if there were no conversation choices at all? Or are you just ranting?

My money's on ranting. But by all means, double down on this and tell everyone who disagrees with you why Bio should go ahead and remove all conversations.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Pritos wrote...

I don't see this as a problem when the second lead to the same response from the NPC as if we are actually asking them. Perhaps it is a problem if your taking hard on the Roleplaying feature.

It matters because I've the revealed something or made some assertion I didn't want to make.

And there are more problems than just that.  In the demo, there's an chance to choose the option "We need to get out of here".  But the actual line is something like "We need help to escape".  The second one (the spoken line) expresses a weakness not hinted at by the paraphrase.

So far, I've seen the wheel work a lot better than the ME wheel ever did, but there are still cases where the paraphrase says simething I want to say, but the spoken line does not, and cases where the paraphrase is something I wouldn't choose if I were trying to stay in character, but the spoken line is exactly what I want to say.

[Sylvius the Mad]

[quote]Upsettingshorts wrote...

They reveal what your character is interested in knowing.  Or interested in asking.[/quote]
They are information.  They don't convey information.

But I don't think they contain either of the things you've mentioned here.
[quote]Blastback wrote...

If I were to ask you a question about how does x mechanic work, that indicates that I posses a lack of knowledge about said mechanic x.  [/quote]
Really?  When teachers ask questions in school, does that mean they don't know the answers?
[quote]Blastback wrote...

Mind explaining this a bit?[/quote]
Conversation is the act of trying to extract information from another while only revealing information you're willing to divulge.

I have a tendency never to ask the question to which I actually want the answer, but instead to ask a different question to which the answer will reveal the answer I really want.  For example, if I ask "Did you go to the store, today?" I 'm probably not trying to learn whether you went to the store.  I might be trying to learn whether you noticed that the car needed fuel.
[quote]ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Okay, if I ask you "How did Loghain betray King Cailan?" then I'm conveying that Loghain betrayed King Cailan. Hypothetically, Loghain could have not betrayed Cailan, in which case I've just lied to you with a question. The lie doesn't have to be believed, or even believable. If I ask you "How did Cailan betray Loghain," I have conveyed false
information to you via that question.[/quote]
That's not actually you lying to me.  That's you claiming that you're lying to me.  Make a statement that's actually false using only a question.

As it happens, the question you've used here could well be used rhetorically by someone who thinks that Cailan didn't betray Loghain.  Would that person be spreading lies about his king by asking that question?  No.

This isn't so different from the classic question "Have you stopped beating your wife?"  This question does not assert that you ever did beat your wife, or even that you have a wife, though many people will incorrectly think it does.
[quote]Catalyst38 wrote...

More on what i ment bye it not being a issue bioware has already said they like this dialog system better then the last so complaining about it now its going to do anything.[/quote]
BioWare always says they like their new system better... until they change it.
[quote]JrayM16 wrote...

http://www.logicalfa...mplex-question/[/quote]
Popular inferences are not necessarily true.
[quote]Alet wrote...
[quote]stephen1493 wrote...

A good example was right after your sibling died. The renegade paraphrase was something along the lines of "we don't have time for this", but the actual saying was Hawke telling his mother that she's threatening all of their lives by freaking out.[/quote]
Which she was, if you consider that darkspawn attacked very quickly after, an attack you might have been able to avoid had you not spent several minutes mourning.  It seemed to me that with that response, Hawke's facial
expression was more obviously sad than in response to any other, which I found intruiging.[/quote]
It doesn't matter whether you're right and he's wrong, or vice-versa.  As long as reasonable people can disagree about whether a paraphrase works, the system is broken.
[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Seriously people....

In Origins you could be a douche to people, or sympathetic, or even sarcastic. Example: Oghren asks to tag along.  your options:

1)Cross me and you're dead.
2) What makes you think you can trust me?
3) Don't I have enough armed lunatics following me around?

Honestly, this is all the same as what Origins did, just a lot easier to understand. I don't know why people are saying "Hawke's not saying anything I wanted him to say. I've been misled!!"

no you haven't. When your siblings are playing the blame game, and you say "speaking of running...." what comes out of Hawke's mouth is a definite sarcastic joking response, as is the angry fed up response.[/quote]
What Hawke says when you choose "speaking of running" is a reference to some darkspawn that we don't even know are there when we make the choice.   We can't possibly have intended that.
[quote]Hawke consoles his mother on sibling's death:

you pick "He won't be alone". Hawke says, "At least Father will have company now." which is entirely accurate on what the wheel presented considering Hawke's father died (yes DIED as in DEAD, meaning he and your sibling are no longer among the living), three years prior to the game's start.[/quote]
Except, again, the game hasn't mentioned yet that Hawke's father is dead, so the player doesn't necessarily know
that.  Also, when I chose that option, I meant it to mean that I was going to kill a bunch of other people out of
vengeance, and they would keep him company.  But that's nothing at all like what Hawke said.
[quote]soteria wrote...

Are you implying it doesn't work?  How about this:  "Have you cleaned up the mess upstairs?"  More subtlely, questions can imply untruths about the asker, like "Do you know where I could buy a lawnmower?"  Deceit in
the form of a question looks different from deceit in the form of a statement, but that should be obvious.[/quote]
Deceit and falsehood are different things.  I don't think either of the questions you've asked here makes an assertion.  Imagine for a moment that we disagree about whether there is a mess upstairs (you think it's a mess, but I think it's a complex filing system).  If I ask you whether you've cleaned up the mess, I'm clearly not asserting that there's a mess upstairs, because I don't think there is.
[quote]medievalmiss wrote...

This question of "Have you stopped beating your wife?" is exactly the example my dad used to use and that I was trying to remember. Thanks for finding this![/quote]
It's also the question I most often use to support my position.

If I were asked that question, I would say "no".  Because I don't have a wife.

Logic wins.
[quote]kaiki01 wrote...

I like it. I remember in Origins I confused "Would you like to know more?" dialog options with "Move the story forward!" options. The new systems creates a consistent presentation of options that helps eliminate some ambiguity of tone from the dialog options.[/quote]
That ambiguitiy is exactly what I want.  Moreover, I dispute that there is such a thing as an objective "forward" in a conversation.
[quote]Pauravi wrote...

Don't be ridiculous.  It is not significantly different than DAO, the biggest difference is the paraphrasing, which they made up for by giving you the "mood" of the response.[/quote]
First, he paraphrase is mostly the thing I'm complaining about.

Second, the icon does not make up for the paraphrase.  In some respects it actually makes the problem worse by removing ambiguity.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 25 février 2011 - 07:36 .

[AkiKishi]

I hate it even more after playing the male warrior class last night.

Bro dies- up comes option "He won't be alone" Click this thinking that it will probably result in "By the time I'm done he'll have a Legion of DarkSpawn for company.

Instead I get to kick mom in the teeth by reminding her that my father is dead too....The line is something like "Well at least Father will have company"

And I thought Shepard was giant tool. But that one really takes the biscuit.
Hawkes certainly not my character, and I'm not even sure I want to play a such a pre-generated tool either.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 25 février 2011 - 08:26 .

[Vicious]

Does this really matter? The silent protagonist lost. And it's probably because he couldn't speak in his own defense.

[AlanC9]

Vicious, that may be the only post worth reading in the entire thread.

[AkiKishi]

AlanC9 wrote...
You really think the people who like the conversation system in DA2 would like it even better if there were no conversation choices at all? Or are you just ranting?

My money's on ranting. But by all means, double down on this and tell everyone who disagrees with you why Bio should go ahead and remove all conversations.

You could remove the keywords and lose nothing, even solve most of the problems. Even though its another step of dumbing down.

Removing the choices totally, allows a more comprehensive story to be told, you don't need to allow for all the "redundant" options. Because only a small % of people replay games, this makes a lot of sense. It's what Final Fantasy et al. Have done for years.

Options only really matter if you intend to replay the game a lot of times. But you can achieve the same thing with different endings based on your actions anyway. One JRPG I played not long ago had around 30 different endings based on what you did during the game. From a "bad" end all the way up to a "True" end and multiple character endings based on relationships.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 25 février 2011 - 08:36 .

[Oloos]

Vicious wrote...

Does this really matter? The silent protagonist lost. And it's probably because he couldn't speak in his own defense.

Just made me think i'd like to know what Bioware could do with a Mute protagonist. Not a silent one. A real, true, mute person. A protagonist who can just express with signs and movements. Could be cool (or not if badly done).

Modifié par Oloos, 25 février 2011 - 08:40 .

[Merced652]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I think it works like this: If you've been mostly sarcastic, your BONUS DIALOGUE OPTION will be sarcastic. If you've been mostly diplomatic, your BONUS DIALOGUE OPTION will be diplomatic.

But regardless you will have a BONUS DIALOGUE OPTION of some kind.

I'm not 100% sure but that's what I'm expecting.

This is how it will work, which i don't find very compelling, but i mean super?

[Merced652]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Merced652 wrote...

Come on David, don't treat us like we're dumb. "Limitations you've chosen this time around?" Really? Can you kick my dog too?

It's opposed to limitations they chose last time.

I never disputed that, merely that he attempts to maintain this charade. We all know they won't make another rpg without a VO'd protag.

[0x30A88]

I like it -- makes it clear what the intent of the line is and I don't have to read every line to interpret them.

[Xewaka]

Gisle Aune wrote...
I like it -- makes it clear what the intent of the line is and I don't have to read every line to interpret them.

And how do you know the actual, real content of the line? Because that's what I'm looking for when choosing a response, and the wheel consistenly fails to show it.