992 réponses à ce sujet

[Perles75]

As a lover of RPGs with a lot of dialogues, I find it too limiting, at least for what I saw in the demo.

I can understand it is functional to the kind of action-RPG Bioware wanted to make with this DA2, but still I prefer another kind of RPG game. I'll buy it anyway.

P.S: I don't really understand why choices must be limited to three options at a time... one can answer to situations in many different shades of behavior

Modifié par Perles75, 25 février 2011 - 09:12 .

[TwistedComplex]

I like how RPG is in quotes



As if, because a game uses the dialog wheel, it no longer qualifies as an RPG

[SirDoctorofTARDIS]

It's not any different then Origins exept in a wheel. There is no good or bad they are actually Diplomatic and Agressive. Say i'm talking to a evil guy and being Diplomqtid means striking a deal isn't that the bad option while Agressive is good.

[Kidd]

I love the dialogue wheel. Console users can pick choices without tapping DownDownDownDown and PC users can pick with a mouse or number keys as usual. No longer will I insult people when I tried to be funny (or, perhaps even worse, the other way around) due to me and the writers apparently not imagining the line in the same way.

Not only that, I get to enjoy what my protagonist says as if I'm watching a film. I get to pick what she should or shouldn't talk about and what tone I want, but I don't actually feel familiar with the line until I hear it.

In a way it's similar to how a lot of rpg groups tend to sometimes (or for some, always) have their in-character dialogue not said literally, but rather "I politely ask the guard for directions." Only now, we get to watch and hear our character speak it out for us instead of the game master immediately replying "The man gives you a bored look as he explains how X is on the other side of town opposite to the local tavern."

EDIT: Yeah I kinda went into paraphrasing as well here. If you don't want my opinion on paraphrasing, simply stop reading after the two first sentences. It's not any more advanced an issue than that.

Modifié par KiddDaBeauty, 25 février 2011 - 09:48 .

[Gazeuse]

Why even bother with the icons. Just let us select personality trait at character creation and then all dialogue just follows that. In each dialogue the wheel or list could be populated with topics. Each topic would start a dialogue "cutsceen" and there could be some moles in between that you could just whack with your personality trait. "grab collar", "make a silly comment", etc.

Maybe that is the next big "innovation" we'll see in the near future. /sarcasm

The best thing about written dialogue choices (without any icons) is that they make you use your brain: reading, comprehension, thinking about choices/consequences and finally making the selection. If you take that process away, I guess someone might call it "dumbing down".

[Kidd]

How is it that you don't think about choice and consequence when something's paraphrased? Is there any real difference between "And now I'm putting your life out of its misery (Kill him)" and "[Fight icon] Die"?

[tmp7704]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

How is it that you don't think about choice and consequence when something's paraphrased? Is there any real difference between "And now I'm putting your life out of its misery (Kill him)" and "[Fight icon] Die"?

Using just this example, the tone of paraphrase can be viewed considerably more malicious. As such, if that's all you're provided with the player may hesitate to pick it, if they don't think their character would say something like that to the target. At the same time, someone who selects this paraphrase and based on it expects similarly cold full version, may feel it's weird the character delivers speech that in some circumstances could be seen almost compassionate.

It's not that people aren't thinking about choices and consequences when something is paraphrased -- it's that the paraphrase may cause them think the choice they're offered (when it comes to what they're about to say) is different from what it actually is. Or at least it can make them hesitate and second-guess what the full version of the sentence is going to be, and if it really fits their character in given situation. And that in turn leads to what was mentioned earlier -- giving up on the paraphrases altogether and selecting actions based just on the intent icons... but that kind of makes the paraphrases pointless/obsolete.

[Taleroth]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

How is it that you don't think about choice and consequence when something's paraphrased? Is there any real difference between "And now I'm putting your life out of its misery (Kill him)" and "[Fight icon] Die"?

Because the paraphrasing is never that clear.

[StingingVelvet]

The paraphrasing doesn't bother me with the wheel system because the intent is clear. You might be surprised by what is said but you cannot be surprised by the tone or effect, as it is known from gameplay mechanics that lower is more aggressive and left is investigative and so on.



The wheel does nothing bother me, I think Gaider adequately explained how that is not as limiting as people seem to believe.



The real change here of course is from a purely player-made avatar to an actual character made by bioware who we have some control over. That is the big issue. I would never support this kind of change in a game like Fallout for instance but for Bioware I think it works. Bioware make cinematic RPGs where they tell you a story, rather than set you loose in a world. Since their goal is somewhat linear narrative-driven gameplay the set character works well for their kind of RPG.

[tmp7704]

David Gaider wrote...

Are there drawbacks for that limitation? Sure, just as there are drawbacks for the unvoiced protaganist (see the Landsmeet, for instance, and the address of the soldiers at Denerim as two places in DAO where having a protaganist able to speak would have been a real plus on the design side).

For the little it's worth, i'm really glad the design limitations of the silent protagonist resulted in the actual king/queen of Ferelden deliver that speech, instead of the warden. Having other characters take active, dominant role every now and then helps in my eyes reduce the whole Mary Sue effect of the protagonist who always plays the first fiddle and always gets the spotlight no matter the rank and skills of people around them. And that is a real plus for me.

Plus, it was quite a "whoa, someone found the backbone and cleaned up nicely" regarding Alistair, pretty fitting given the whole Landsmeet thing.

[JrayM16]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

[

JrayM16 wrote...

http://www.logicalfa...mplex-question/

Popular inferences are not necessarily true.

You asked if one could lie with a question.  Assuming the man was NOT beating his wife, the question would be a lie.

[gingerbill]

wowpwnslol wrote...

It's worse. Made for ADD kids too lazy to read, so they even added pictures. I hate ME style dialogue "wheel" it screams console oversimplification.

not true , one thing you forget is that now the main character is voice acted you cannot have the full sentence on the screen because that doesnt work . Reading a sentence and then seeing someone say it again doesnt work . It's nothing to do with console's , it just a system that works better with voice acting . You wouldnt want ot watch a film and read what they were going to say before they said it .

[BudaKhan]

What's with you guys? Not enough shades of grey or just nothing better to complain about today? Good, Evil, Neutral.... what? You want a chaotic neutral speech choice? Get out of here you kooks!

[tmp7704]

gingerbill wrote...

not true , one thing you forget is that now the main character is voice acted you cannot have the full sentence on the screen because that doesnt work . Reading a sentence and then seeing someone say it again doesnt work .

The Witcher used that system (full sentences, then acted out). Didn't bother me in the slightest. So no "that doesn't work" isn't universally true. It may not work for some people but don't treat it as gospel.

[JrayM16]

Inarborat wrote...

gingerbill wrote...

wowpwnslol wrote...

It's worse. Made for ADD kids too lazy to read, so they even added pictures. I hate ME style dialogue "wheel" it screams console oversimplification.

not true , one thing you forget is that now the main character is voice acted you cannot have the full sentence on the screen because that doesnt work . Reading a sentence and then seeing someone say it again doesnt work . It's nothing to do with console's , it just a system that works better with voice acting . You wouldnt want ot watch a film and read what they were going to say before they said it .

No but most Americans are too lazy to read subtitles for a movie.  When voice acting is good, it's a wonderful thing in video games.  When it's bad, like the DAII demo, it takes away from the game.

Wow, way to generalize us Americans.  I would link to the logical fallacies page but you're not worth the effort.

[Raanz]

Inarborat wrote...

No but most Americans are too lazy to read subtitles for a movie. 

Nice. Real classy.

Modifié par Raanz, 25 février 2011 - 03:08 .

[nomzy]

I don't mind the wheel, it's the paraphrasing I hate.

I'd rather just read what the character is going to say, than guess then find out I it was something different. I don't mind the VO though. The female one I love



Oh well, I'll deal with it.

[AkiKishi]

gingerbill wrote...

not true , one thing you forget is that now the main character is voice acted you cannot have the full sentence on the screen because that doesnt work . Reading a sentence and then seeing someone say it again doesnt work . It's nothing to do with console's , it just a system that works better with voice acting . You wouldnt want ot watch a film and read what they were going to say before they said it .

It works, but in all probability it does not fit on the screen with a wheel in the middle.

After reading the thread I think the best solution is to just do away with the text and have intent icons. Then it's clear that the character is going to speak the lines however they choose.

It's furth dumbing down , granted but it does solve the problem as well as likely makes it easier on the designer side as well.

[Nomen Mendax]

BobSmith101 wrote...

gingerbill wrote...

not true , one thing you forget is that now the main character is voice acted you cannot have the full sentence on the screen because that doesnt work . Reading a sentence and then seeing someone say it again doesnt work . It's nothing to do with console's , it just a system that works better with voice acting . You wouldnt want ot watch a film and read what they were going to say before they said it .

It works, but in all probability it does not fit on the screen with a wheel in the middle.

After reading the thread I think the best solution is to just do away with the text and have intent icons. Then it's clear that the character is going to speak the lines however they choose.

It's furth dumbing down , granted but it does solve the problem as well as likely makes it easier on the designer side as well.

As someone who prefers to see a full text response and who also doesn't like the dialogue wheel I disagree that the dialogue wheel, or even the idea of just having intent icons is dumbing down the system.  In terms of how much intelligence it requires from the user I think the two systems are equivalent, they are just different ways of eliciting the information.

I really don't think Bioware's reasons for moving to a dialogue wheel are because they think we are too stupid or too lazy to read a few sentences of text.  I think it's because they've decided that it works better with a fully voiced game and allows them to have dialogue exchanges without them seeming choppy and broken up.  Again, this isn't necessarily the direction I want them to go but I don't think it's "dumbing down".

<edited to remove errors that made the post inncoherent >

Modifié par Nomen Mendax, 25 février 2011 - 03:40 .

[Elvoria]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Personally I hate it. In DA I would read through my choices and pick the one that suited my character best. Now much like ME we get the good/evil and middle path. Not only that, but we get little icons to make it even easier...

Now you don't even have to read just look at the icons.

Anyway what does everyone else think ? Better or just lazy?

The game is fully voiced now so rather than lines of text on the screen it's spoken, you still have 3 choices and a fourth to investigate further.

So many complain about them speeding things up to release a game yet they go the extra mile to voice over the player character and you still complain.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

BobSmith101 wrote...

Personally I hate it. In DA I would read through my choices and pick the one that suited my character best. Now much like ME we get the good/evil and middle path. Not only that, but we get little icons to make it even easier...

Now you don't even have to read just look at the icons.

Anyway what does everyone else think ? Better or just lazy?

I know I'm going to have serious problem with good/evil choices. I don't like how it turn out. Shepard successfully kick me out of the game because of this. Paragon/Renegade Shepard now RIP in my gaming list. That's serve him right to mess up a neutral/compromise player character. I'm still curious with the middle path though. I hope full game have better options.

[KillTheLastRomantic]

I hate it. The demo just felt like a generic action game.

[AkiKishi]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Personally I hate it. In DA I would read through my choices and pick the one that suited my character best. Now much like ME we get the good/evil and middle path. Not only that, but we get little icons to make it even easier...

Now you don't even have to read just look at the icons.

Anyway what does everyone else think ? Better or just lazy?

I know I'm going to have serious problem with good/evil choices. I don't like how it turn out. Shepard successfully kick me out of the game because of this. Paragon/Renegade Shepard now RIP in my gaming list. That's serve him right to mess up a neutral/compromise player character. I'm still curious with the middle path though. I hope full game have better options.

Heres one of my "faves" from the middle path.

Bro dies- up comes option "He won't be alone" Click this thinking that it will probably result in "By the time I'm done he'll have a Legion of DarkSpawn for company.

Instead I get to kick mom in the teeth by reminding her that my father is dead too....The line is something like "Well at least Father will have company"

And I thought Shepard was giant tool. But that one really takes the biscuit.
Hawkes certainly not my character, and I'm not even sure I want to play a such a pre-generated